Zone1 Are people responsible for their own actions, or are others responsible for someone else's actions?

[IM2]

I think the answer to the question is both.

When we talk about drugs, there are legal and illegal ones. Who decides this?

This decision has messed up a lot of lives. Consider this: Alcohol is perhaps the worst drug and it's legal. How many people have died as a result of alcohol? We won't see a missile strike on beer trucks or semis full of Jack Daniels. The decision to make these drugs causes problems. So you see, when people talk about choices, they need to be more holistic in their responses. I'm not referring to the OP because the OP made his point clear; however, I m responding to the smug self-righteous people who want to lecture everybody about choices and people's lives. If a person wants to make such comments, it is best to start talking about all choices, given that some choices create conditions for other choices to be made.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Something to say about it ... or maybe something not to say about it:

I immediately thought of Mathew Perry because his mom was in court recently for the sentencing of the doctor who was prescribing him the drug(s) he overdosed on.

I understand the family's pain but I think this is a good case that goes to FrigidWeirdo's point. Perry understood that he was abusing the drugs prescribed to him and his whole circle is framing his suppliers & enablers as having exploited him/his addiction.

In another slightly different example, a young college student here in Seattle, Jaahnavi Kandula, was killed when a police officer responding to a drug overdose call struck & killed her with his patrol vehicle. A self-inflicted drug overdose that we've tasked our law enforcement & emergency medical professionals with responding to, in order to protect drug addicts from themselves, ended up costing a young grad school student the loss of her life.

This is a complex topic that does not have a simple solution but apparently the risk of death is not enough to sway hard core addicts from using so it begs the question at what point is it reasonable to care more about the lives of others than they do about their own lives if they are unwilling to do anything about their situation?

So you answer your OP question:

(1) People who consume drugs and die are killing themselves OR people who consume drugs are being killed by drug traffickers (like the dude Trump pardoned, like the ones in boats in the Caribbean) OR killed by the drug dealers.
1. In my opinion, they are killing themselves with drugs supplied by drug dealers/traffickers. What do you they would do if their supply was suddenly cut off? Do you think they would just stop cold turkey or do you think they would attempt to find a new supplier and in lieu of being unable to locate a new source, perhaps substitute a new drug?

(2) People who are killed with guns are killed by the gun OR they are killed by the people who sell the guns OR they're killed by the person who pulls the trigger.
There are a couple of categories of people who get killed by a firearm excluding accidents:
1. There are crimes of opportunity where they just happen to cross the path with someone looking for someone to rob, shoot or kill OR
2. They're targeted and the gun just happens to be an easy way to
a. coerce compliance
b. injure the person for whatever reason they may have however if a gun is used THEREFORE

they are killed by the person who CHOSES to pull the trigger. Not the gun manufacturer or the gun dealer since guns are not illegal in the U.S. in the same manner that drugs are.

 

[GLASNOST]

..... many drug pushers engage in recruiting. They provide free samples to high school students and, in some cases, even to elementary school children. Some dealers use young teenagers as recruiters—usually those who are charismatic.

There was a knock on my door. I opened it. Two young guys were standing there asking me if I am the father of XXX. I said, "Yes". They told me that my son who, was only 16 at the time, owed them a lot of money for drugs he had been given (as you've described above) but never payed them. I broke down then and there. I didn't know my boy was involved in that sort of stuff. It was obvious which one of those two guys was the leader and when I began to weep he took pity on me. He put his hand on my shoulder and told me not to take it so hard. He understood me. I agreed to pay the guy as soon as possible. He then told me that I had to control my son much better. To give him a curfew, give him only a minimum allowance and to make sure he no longer has contact with "those people" particularly a girl whose name I'm not going to mention, and to also take away his mobile telephone. The guy said that he has a younger brother and was worried about him and he felt the same about my son. He gave me his telephone number and said I should ring him if I suspect my boy is still "doing drugs" and if so he would contact the group and tell them not to let my boy have any kind of drugs. I suppose he had influence. Anyway, I took his advice about everything he told me. Yes, I contacted a help organization here in town and we met with them several times. My boy is 18 now. I don't think he is back in that shit but I never know for sure. I am still feeling the pain today. What I've written here is all true and I am open to serious suggestions and questions.

 

[MarathonMike]

I'm perfectly fine debating people. It's literally what I'm looking for on here.

But I just do not see the relevance of what you've said.

So, try again, stick to the topic, and then we can debate.

All I see is you posting something irrelevant and then trying to do some kind of victory dance around a naked woman.

I'm literally talking with OKTexas on here. If I start a thread I will try and talk with most people, except Westwall and a few others who are on double ignore.

I answered your debate question simply and directly and you state that I'm "doing a victory dance around a naked woman". WTF dude. OK you convinced me, you are incapable of debate.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

That applies to meds sold in Mexican pharmacies as well. And they list the supposed ingredients, it doesn't just apply to street drugs. You'd be amazed at what Mexican pharmacies are putting out to unsuspecting buyers. Personally, I support the government selling seized drugs on the streets after lacing them with cyanide and just tag'em and bag'em. After making the public aware of course. The ones partaking with that knowledge would, would shoot you for 20 bucks at an ATM. Mass cremation would be a great way of disposal. I have held this opinion for years and posted it multiple times on this site.

I would also have no problem with taking out traffickers, after all, they are conspirators in mass murder.

.

You need to go one step deeper by acknowledging and addressing the demand. Why must drug abuse be mainstreamed as inevitable? That’s only happened in less than one generation.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The entire sales pitch of the Democrat party involves telling people they are victims and this is all the fault of society at large. They reinforce this by excusing the bad behavior of those they categorize as somehow oppressed.

This amounts to such a system of privilege as to act like drug to those who do nothing to improve themselves.

 

[OKTexas]

You need to go one step deeper by acknowledging and addressing the demand. Why must drug abuse be mainstreamed as inevitable? That’s only happened in less than one generation.

You obviously missed the third sentence in that quote. That would reduce demand.

.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I'm perfectly fine debating people. It's literally what I'm looking for on here.

But I just do not see the relevance of what you've said.

So, try again, stick to the topic, and then we can debate.

All I see is you posting something irrelevant and then trying to do some kind of victory dance around a naked woman.

I'm literally talking with OKTexas on here. If I start a thread I will try and talk with most people, except Westwall and a few others who are on double ignore.

so he brings up something wrong with your claim and you just ignore it and claim it doesnt apply. Coward. Now lets talk about your comparison. Less then 20000 people a year are murdered in a year. Over 100000 people a year die because of overdoses. Almost all firearms are used in a lawful manner and buying them is legal if you follow the law. NO ONE buying illegal drugs are acting in a legal manner and no one taking illegal drugs are acting in a legal manner.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

No, I'm not trying to equate cartels with legitimate drug companies.

What we're talking about is illegal drugs coming into the US and being sold and consumed by people who then die and guns being bought by people in the US and then people using them to kill.

I don't know what you're talking about legitimate drug companies.

and there your comparison fails completely illegal drugs are never legal and firearms are legal and the vast majority of them are purchased legally.

 

[Woodznutz]

We're going to use drugs and guns.

1) People who consume drugs and die are killing themselves OR people who consume drugs are being killed by drug traffickers (like the dude Trump pardoned, like the ones in boats in the Caribbean) OR killed by the drug dealers.

2) People who are killed with guns are killed by the gun OR they are killed by the people who sell the guns OR they're killed by the person who pulls the trigger.

If a person is killed by drug traffickers, then the same logic says the person who sells transports the guns is also doing the killed.
If a person is killed by drug dealer, then the same logic says the person who sold the gun is also doing the killing.
If the person who took the drug killed themselves, then the same logic suggests that the person pulling the trigger did the killing
If the drug killed the person, then the same logic suggests that the gun did the killing.

Which logic do you go for?

It's not a forgone conclusion that a gun buyer is going to kill themselves or someone else just because he or she buys a gun. Not so with drugs, as overdose deaths demonstrate. Taking hard drugs is like playing Russian roulette with revolver.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

You obviously missed the third sentence in that quote. That would reduce demand.

.

Drug abuse demand is the bigger culprit, not so much prescription drugs. If it was a prescription problem, pharmaceuticals would have been sued into prison long ago.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It's not a forgone conclusion that a gun buyer is going to kill themselves or someone else just because he or she buys a gun. Not so with drugs, as overdose deaths demonstrate. Taking hard drugs is like playing Russian roulette with revolver.

It's also not a foregone conclusion that the person taking the drugs will die either, is it?

Millions of people are taking the drugs, but only a few are dying.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The entire sales pitch of the Democrat party involves telling people they are victims and this is all the fault of society at large. They reinforce this by excusing the bad behavior of those they categorize as somehow oppressed.

This amounts to such a system of privilege as to act like drug to those who do nothing to improve themselves.

Isn't that exactly what Trump is doing when it comes to drugs?

I can murder people because I'm at war with these people, because these people are killing people in the US?????

It's funny how the Republicans will come up with some argument, and then attack the Democrats for that same argument.

 

[Woodznutz]

It's also not a foregone conclusion that the person taking the drugs will die either, is it?

Millions of people are taking the drugs, but only a few are dying.

Millions of drug addicts need treatment. A million each year need emergency treatment for overdosing. Many are repeaters.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Millions of drug addicts need treatment. A million each year need emergency treatment for overdosing. Many are repeaters.

Yes, there's a problem with drug addiction. However the point is that with guns, it's not like every gun ends up in a murder, and it's not like every drug ends up in a death either.

So, back to the topic. Is it the drug and gun doing the killing? Is it the people selling them that do the killing?

 

[Woodznutz]

Yes, there's a problem with drug addiction. However the point is that with guns, it's not like every gun ends up in a murder, and it's not like every drug ends up in a death either.

So, back to the topic. Is it the drug and gun doing the killing? Is it the people selling them that do the killing?

Selling guns is legal if you are a licensed dealer. There are no legal drug dealers, for what it's worth.

 

[Slyhunter]

We're going to use drugs and guns.

1) People who consume drugs and die are killing themselves OR people who consume drugs are being killed by drug traffickers (like the dude Trump pardoned, like the ones in boats in the Caribbean) OR killed by the drug dealers.

2) People who are killed with guns are killed by the gun OR they are killed by the people who sell the guns OR they're killed by the person who pulls the trigger.

If a person is killed by drug traffickers, then the same logic says the person who sells transports the guns is also doing the killed.
If a person is killed by drug dealer, then the same logic says the person who sold the gun is also doing the killing.
If the person who took the drug killed themselves, then the same logic suggests that the person pulling the trigger did the killing
If the drug killed the person, then the same logic suggests that the gun did the killing.

Which logic do you go for?

Should youngsters die for making a mistake? smoking a joint with who knows what's in it for example. Are those under the age of consent responsible for stupid actions?

We regulate booze we should regulate drugs

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

Selling guns is legal if you are a licensed dealer. There are no legal drug dealers, for what it's worth.

There are pot shops all over. Drugs. Bad drug. Addictive and causes mental illness.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Selling guns is legal if you are a licensed dealer. There are no legal drug dealers, for what it's worth.

Yes, there are plenty of legal drug dealers. They're called "doctors".

Morphine is opium (more or less Morphine vs. Opium - What's the Difference? | This vs. That, morphine is usually stronger)

However that's not the issue. The issue is that if a person is sell you illegal drugs, or if someone is selling you a legal gun, what's the difference?

Is legality a difference? Does it change government responsibility? Is the US govt responsible for the over 15,000 gun murders that happen every year in the US?

 

[Dekster]

We're going to use drugs and guns.

1) People who consume drugs and die are killing themselves OR people who consume drugs are being killed by drug traffickers (like the dude Trump pardoned, like the ones in boats in the Caribbean) OR killed by the drug dealers.

2) People who are killed with guns are killed by the gun OR they are killed by the people who sell the guns OR they're killed by the person who pulls the trigger.

If a person is killed by drug traffickers, then the same logic says the person who sells transports the guns is also doing the killed.
If a person is killed by drug dealer, then the same logic says the person who sold the gun is also doing the killing.
If the person who took the drug killed themselves, then the same logic suggests that the person pulling the trigger did the killing
If the drug killed the person, then the same logic suggests that the gun did the killing.

Which logic do you go for?

It would be nice if life were as simple as you are trying to make it.