CDZ Are anti gunners serious when they say they will stop at 10 round magazines?

[BULLDOG]

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

From the anti gun Joyce Foundation....

Study Finds That Chicago Criminals Get Guns From Friends, Family

A survey conducted by researchers from Duke University and the University of Chicago found that Chicago criminals obtained their firearms almost exclusively from friends and family.

The survey, funded by the Joyce Foundation and set to be published in the October edition of Preventive Medicine, consisted of interviews with 99 inmates at Chicago’s Cook County Jail who had illegally possessed a gun within six months of their incarceration. It found that most criminals only acquired guns from people they knew and trusted.

----

The study found that due to fears of encountering undercover police officers attempting sting operations, a large majority of the criminals surveyed would only make illegal gun purchases from people they knew.

"In discussing the underground gun market in their neighborhoods, most respondents emphasized the importance of connections—prior relationships that could create sufficient trust to reassure the seller that the transaction would not create an unacceptable legal risk," the survey says. "

A majority of the primary guns (40 of the 48 for which we have detailed information on the source) were obtained from family, fellow gang members, or other social connections; the fraction is still higher for secondary guns."

"Only 2 of the 70 primary guns (3%) and no secondary guns were reported as purchased directly from a gun store."

The survey also found that criminals preferred handguns by a wide margin. Rifles, shotguns, and firearms that would be classified as "assault weapons" under Illinois law made up a small percentage of the guns criminals reported they had owned.

Additionally, the survey found that criminals kept their firearms for only a short period of time and had little knowledge of firearms.

The researchers noted that the findings may challenge what many believe about how criminals obtain firearms.

"Some of the pathways people are concerned about don’t seem so dominant," Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago’s Crime Lab and co-author of the survey, told the Chicago Sun-Times.
-------

"This proves what we have said all along," Alan Gottlieb, the founder of Second Amendment, told theFree Beacon. "Criminals don't go through background checks to acquire a gun. They don’t buy them at gun stores, gun shows, or on the Internet. They get them from family, friends, and fellow gang members. Gun control laws only affect lawful gun owners."

Chicago is only one city. Anything to show the case is the same for the entire country?

Yeah.....

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.



According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.



Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

So this link lists about a half dozen sources for crooks to get guns in southern California, I guess that means that your claim that they get guns only two ways is bullshit. Chicago and Southern California still doesn't cover the entire country, and obviously different areas have different ways for crooks to get guns. Care to back up and start over?

....this is actual research from several sources.....you were proven wrong, you won't admit it, you are now going to try to cover your embarrassment with petty behavior.....

Actual research covering Southern California, and Chicago. You also tried to pass off an opinion piece. The actual research articles disagree on what the sources are. Fake claims from you. Find a study that covers the country. We are talking about federal law. Not just little pockets in the country.

 

[2aguy]

From the anti gun Joyce Foundation....

Study Finds That Chicago Criminals Get Guns From Friends, Family

A survey conducted by researchers from Duke University and the University of Chicago found that Chicago criminals obtained their firearms almost exclusively from friends and family.

The survey, funded by the Joyce Foundation and set to be published in the October edition of Preventive Medicine, consisted of interviews with 99 inmates at Chicago’s Cook County Jail who had illegally possessed a gun within six months of their incarceration. It found that most criminals only acquired guns from people they knew and trusted.

----

The study found that due to fears of encountering undercover police officers attempting sting operations, a large majority of the criminals surveyed would only make illegal gun purchases from people they knew.

"In discussing the underground gun market in their neighborhoods, most respondents emphasized the importance of connections—prior relationships that could create sufficient trust to reassure the seller that the transaction would not create an unacceptable legal risk," the survey says. "

A majority of the primary guns (40 of the 48 for which we have detailed information on the source) were obtained from family, fellow gang members, or other social connections; the fraction is still higher for secondary guns."

"Only 2 of the 70 primary guns (3%) and no secondary guns were reported as purchased directly from a gun store."

The survey also found that criminals preferred handguns by a wide margin. Rifles, shotguns, and firearms that would be classified as "assault weapons" under Illinois law made up a small percentage of the guns criminals reported they had owned.

Additionally, the survey found that criminals kept their firearms for only a short period of time and had little knowledge of firearms.

The researchers noted that the findings may challenge what many believe about how criminals obtain firearms.

"Some of the pathways people are concerned about don’t seem so dominant," Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago’s Crime Lab and co-author of the survey, told the Chicago Sun-Times.
-------

"This proves what we have said all along," Alan Gottlieb, the founder of Second Amendment, told theFree Beacon. "Criminals don't go through background checks to acquire a gun. They don’t buy them at gun stores, gun shows, or on the Internet. They get them from family, friends, and fellow gang members. Gun control laws only affect lawful gun owners."

Chicago is only one city. Anything to show the case is the same for the entire country?

Yeah.....

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.



According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.



Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

So this link lists about a half dozen sources for crooks to get guns in southern California, I guess that means that your claim that they get guns only two ways is bullshit. Chicago and Southern California still doesn't cover the entire country, and obviously different areas have different ways for crooks to get guns. Care to back up and start over?

....this is actual research from several sources.....you were proven wrong, you won't admit it, you are now going to try to cover your embarrassment with petty behavior.....

Actual research covering Southern California, and Chicago. You also tried to pass off an opinion piece. The actual research articles disagree on what the sources are. Fake claims from you. Find a study that covers the country. We are talking about federal law. Not just little pockets in the country.

Yes...the links are there, you are wrong, you don't know what you are talking about....but keep trying to cover for what you don't know....

 

[BULLDOG]

Chicago is only one city. Anything to show the case is the same for the entire country?

Yeah.....

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.



According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.



Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

So this link lists about a half dozen sources for crooks to get guns in southern California, I guess that means that your claim that they get guns only two ways is bullshit. Chicago and Southern California still doesn't cover the entire country, and obviously different areas have different ways for crooks to get guns. Care to back up and start over?

....this is actual research from several sources.....you were proven wrong, you won't admit it, you are now going to try to cover your embarrassment with petty behavior.....

Actual research covering Southern California, and Chicago. You also tried to pass off an opinion piece. The actual research articles disagree on what the sources are. Fake claims from you. Find a study that covers the country. We are talking about federal law. Not just little pockets in the country.

Yes...the links are there, you are wrong, you don't know what you are talking about....but keep trying to cover for what you don't know....

The links don't prove hat you want them to prove. Might be enough to convince a gun nut, but not a rational person.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

remind me again how Britain did it right but crimes involving the use of firearms skyrocketed after the ban and murder with firearms went up as well.

 

[Chuz Life]

Laws against murder do not stop murder. Murderers don't follow those laws, so lets just do away with those useless laws. That makes as much sense as the silly crap you keep repeating.

Someone doesn't seem to know what the purpose of a law is.

 

[BULLDOG]

remind me again how Britain did it right but crimes involving the use of firearms skyrocketed after the ban and murder with firearms went up as well.

26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
Published on
Tuesday, October 03, 2017

 

[Skull Pilot]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

 

[Skull Pilot]

remind me again how Britain did it right but crimes involving the use of firearms skyrocketed after the ban and murder with firearms went up as well.

26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
Published on
Tuesday, October 03, 2017

Murders with any firearm according to the FBI

2015 9616
2014 8312

Where the hell are you getting 11000?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

just because it is banned does not mean a bad guy will obey the law



look at the things the black market offers

Hundreds Of Military-Grade Machine Guns, Ammunition Seized In Fontana

I am with you

Why make it difficult for mass killers to get the weapons they want to do the job right?

Let me get this straight.

A very small percentage of people might kill so no one can have guns.

So a very small percentage of people drink, drive and kill so no one should be able to drink correct?

 

[JoeB131]

Then tell the government clerks to press "send" when they are updating criminal records....

Or actually do REAL background checks, and not rely on a database that is designed to be faulty.

Or better yet. Make the gun industry responsible, just like bars are when they serve drunks. No "checking a database". If the guy looks too drunk to drive, you don't serve him. If he looks too crazy to have a gun, you don't sell him one.

If you sell him one anyway, lawsuit time.

I promise you, the first time a gun manufacturer starts paying out big bucks from one of their "elite customer's" actions, they'll clean up their act.

 

[JoeB131]

Yeah...they did this......they had a guy who a co worker said was spouting jihadi sentiments...they did. 10 month detailed background check, including an under cover approach, talked to people who knew the guy, talked to him 3 different times using trained FBI agents....and on top of that the guy passed a background check for his security job, and passed a federally mandated background check for ecru gun he owned.....

After all of that....he was cleared.......and he would clear your idea for a background check too...

No, he wouldn't have. That's the point. The problem is, the standard for denying someone a gun is so high that even that level of crazy isn't enough to deny one.

This is the problem when you declare something a 'right'. Taking it away becomes REALLY DIFFICULT. All the stuff you list here should have been a reason to deny him a gun. But it wasn't.

 

[rightwinger]

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

And more.....

How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

When they cannot find them in the grass, gangs get guns by trickery and by theft, by bribery and by intimidation. They often pay or force men who are legally entitled to buy guns to buy weapons for them at gun stores or shows.


Such a transaction is called a "straw man" purchase, but girlfriends and other women, often desperate to feed their children or a drug habit, are also used to buy weapons over the counter.

"We've found people who do it as a kind of side business," said Stephen P. Sinnott, an assistant United States Attorney in Chicago.

One gun-running ring at the city's western limits paid off its buyers with guns. For every half-dozen guns or so a straw man bought, he was allowed to keep one. In about 16 months, Mr. Singer said, the ring put more than 110 illegal guns on the streets. More than 20 of the guns have been recovered in drive-by shootings and drug deals gone bad.

The gangs and other criminals also get weapons through barter, or "trade-ins." The gangs trade narcotics for the guns of drug-addicted burglars, who will sell a $500 pistol fo

More reason why we need to register guns

Registering guns doesn't do anything.....it doesn't solve crimes it doesn't stop crimes...and mass shooters will register their guns all day long.

It shows where mass shooters and criminals are getting their guns

You will be more careful about who you sell your gun to if you realize the gun can be traced back to you

 

[rightwinger]

Yeah...they did this......they had a guy who a co worker said was spouting jihadi sentiments...they did. 10 month detailed background check, including an under cover approach, talked to people who knew the guy, talked to him 3 different times using trained FBI agents....and on top of that the guy passed a background check for his security job, and passed a federally mandated background check for ecru gun he owned.....

After all of that....he was cleared.......and he would clear your idea for a background check too...

No, he wouldn't have. That's the point. The problem is, the standard for denying someone a gun is so high that even that level of crazy isn't enough to deny one.

This is the problem when you declare something a 'right'. Taking it away becomes REALLY DIFFICULT. All the stuff you list here should have been a reason to deny him a gun. But it wasn't.

We are not talking about denying someone a gun, but denying a high capacity magazine

We are protecting against the inconvenience to someone at a gun range having to reload more often against having to force a mass killer to reload

 

[jon_berzerk]

dont kid yourself they want all guns

even muzzlerloaders

‘Literally Know Nothing’: Tucker Takes On Dem Over Banning MUZZLE LOADERS [VIDEO]

 

[rightwinger]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

just because it is banned does not mean a bad guy will obey the law



look at the things the black market offers

Hundreds Of Military-Grade Machine Guns, Ammunition Seized In Fontana

I am with you

Why make it difficult for mass killers to get the weapons they want to do the job right?

Let me get this straight.

A very small percentage of people might kill so no one can have guns.

So a very small percentage of people drink, drive and kill so no one should be able to drink correct?

You don't need a 100 round magazine......someone wanting to shoot up an elementary school does

 

[Skull Pilot]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

just because it is banned does not mean a bad guy will obey the law



look at the things the black market offers

Hundreds Of Military-Grade Machine Guns, Ammunition Seized In Fontana

I am with you

Why make it difficult for mass killers to get the weapons they want to do the job right?

Let me get this straight.

A very small percentage of people might kill so no one can have guns.

So a very small percentage of people drink, drive and kill so no one should be able to drink correct?

You don't need a 100 round magazine......someone wanting to shoot up an elementary school does

I never said I did.

But you missed the point that magazine size is irrelevant to anyone hell bent on killing people

 

[JoeB131]

I never said I did.

But you missed the point that magazine size is irrelevant to anyone hell bent on killing people

But only people intent on killing lots of people want a 100 round magazine.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yeah...they did this......they had a guy who a co worker said was spouting jihadi sentiments...they did. 10 month detailed background check, including an under cover approach, talked to people who knew the guy, talked to him 3 different times using trained FBI agents....and on top of that the guy passed a background check for his security job, and passed a federally mandated background check for ecru gun he owned.....

After all of that....he was cleared.......and he would clear your idea for a background check too...

No, he wouldn't have. That's the point. The problem is, the standard for denying someone a gun is so high that even that level of crazy isn't enough to deny one.

This is the problem when you declare something a 'right'. Taking it away becomes REALLY DIFFICULT. All the stuff you list here should have been a reason to deny him a gun. But it wasn't.

By so high you mean not arbitrary.

Felons and the adjudicated mentally ill cannot possess firearms.

Any right can be denied via due process.

You want rights to be denied arbitrarily.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I never said I did.

But you missed the point that magazine size is irrelevant to anyone hell bent on killing people

But only people intent on killing lots of people want a 100 round magazine.

I don't know that and neither do you.

I'm sure there are people who own 100 round magazines who have not and will not ever kill anyone

 

[rightwinger]

I never said I did.

But you missed the point that magazine size is irrelevant to anyone hell bent on killing people

But only people intent on killing lots of people want a 100 round magazine.

With a 100 round magazine you can look like a badass at the shooting range
But it serves you no practical purpose

It is highly desired by someone who wants to slaughter small children in an elementary school or shoot up a church