CDZ Are anti gunners serious when they say they will stop at 10 round magazines?

[2aguy]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

No..you can just use 10 round magazines...since the cops didn't breach the room for 72 minutes you have all the time in the world...and changing a magazine is easy and quick anyway...

Yes

Ten rounds at a pop allows time for a crowd to disperse
500 rpm just mows them down

But thank god he could build the arsenal of his choice.....it keeps us safe

No....there are no 500 round magazines, and even the Vegas shooter used standard magazines.......and again, if you want to kill a lot of people in 5 minutes...use a rental truck......

And how many guns of that arsenal did he actually use? 2. So if he had those 2 guns without the rest...that would have made it better how?

 

[cnm]

Obviously, fewer people would have been saved.

 

[rightwinger]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

No..you can just use 10 round magazines...since the cops didn't breach the room for 72 minutes you have all the time in the world...and changing a magazine is easy and quick anyway...

Yes

Ten rounds at a pop allows time for a crowd to disperse
500 rpm just mows them down

But thank god he could build the arsenal of his choice.....it keeps us safe

No....there are no 500 round magazines, and even the Vegas shooter used standard magazines.......and again, if you want to kill a lot of people in 5 minutes...use a rental truck......

And how many guns of that arsenal did he actually use? 2. So if he had those 2 guns without the rest...that would have made it better how?

Of course not

Why would you think you need a 500 round magazine to shoot 500rpm?
Don't you know anything about guns?

 

[BULLDOG]

Laws against murder do not stop murder. Murderers don't follow those laws, so lets just do away with those useless laws. That makes as much sense as the silly crap you keep repeating.

There is a difference between laws that punish actual actions that harm others, and those that prevent people from having an item for the simple reason that they "might" do something wrong with it.

The reason we punish murderers is the State has taken over the right of justice from the victims relatives and friends, so the State punishes the offender for their ACTION instead of the aggrieved survivors hanging the perpetrator from the nearest tree.

A non qualified person buying fire arms does harm other's.

Which is already illegal. Non-qualified means convicted felons, and people adjudicated mentally unfit.

I know there is an exception for misdemeanor domestic violence, but would prefer we just make all domestic violence felonies instead of giving an exception for a specific misdemeanor.

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

 

[BULLDOG]

Do you think full auto's and armed Abrams tanks should be legal for me to purchase?

I do. The point of the 2nd was to have a well armed citizenry to keep the government in check, and be able to resist if said government became tyrannical. Is there any threat of our government becoming tyrannical today? No, of course not. The same was once true of pre-American revolution England too though, so that argument rings pretty hollow for most pro-2nd students of history. There is, and cannot be, a law(s) that would permanently prevent a government from becoming oppressive and tyrannical, therefore we MUST have the option of being able to mount an effective resistance to such oppression and tyranny.

So, as long as the military has full autos and tanks, we should maintain the RIGHT to acquire and possess them as well.

FWIW, I draw the line at nukes. It is my opinion that nukes should remain a purely strategic weapon, and NEVER be used. I wish we could live in a world without them, unfortunately that is impossible. However, there is no reasonable use for such weapons in a government resistance scenario for either side, therefore there is no reasonable reason for civilians to acquire or possess them. There MAY be other weapons systems too, such as a "Strategic Missile Defense" system that would be impractical for civilians.

How much of an effective resistance do you think a few rifles and handguns will be against our military? Admit that your silly fantasy about resisting the government has no relation to reality, and gun nuts are just doing what gun nuts do.

It's not a few rifles....current count is over 100 million rifles and about 500 million hand guns....

And you just have to ask the Swiss....435,000 armed citizens..with actual military rifles, kept the German socialists from invading their country, the cost to the German army was going to be too high...so they just invaded all the European countries that took guns away from their people....

Are you really trying to compare the Swiss in 1940 with the power of our military today? Funniest thing I've heard all day.

Yep.......except we have more people with guns than they did.....

That's the kind of silly/funny we have grown to expect from you. Thanks

 

[2aguy]

There is a difference between laws that punish actual actions that harm others, and those that prevent people from having an item for the simple reason that they "might" do something wrong with it.

The reason we punish murderers is the State has taken over the right of justice from the victims relatives and friends, so the State punishes the offender for their ACTION instead of the aggrieved survivors hanging the perpetrator from the nearest tree.

A non qualified person buying fire arms does harm other's.

Which is already illegal. Non-qualified means convicted felons, and people adjudicated mentally unfit.

I know there is an exception for misdemeanor domestic violence, but would prefer we just make all domestic violence felonies instead of giving an exception for a specific misdemeanor.

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

 

[BULLDOG]

A non qualified person buying fire arms does harm other's.

Which is already illegal. Non-qualified means convicted felons, and people adjudicated mentally unfit.

I know there is an exception for misdemeanor domestic violence, but would prefer we just make all domestic violence felonies instead of giving an exception for a specific misdemeanor.

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

 

[2aguy]

Which is already illegal. Non-qualified means convicted felons, and people adjudicated mentally unfit.

I know there is an exception for misdemeanor domestic violence, but would prefer we just make all domestic violence felonies instead of giving an exception for a specific misdemeanor.

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

From the anti gun Joyce Foundation....

Study Finds That Chicago Criminals Get Guns From Friends, Family

A survey conducted by researchers from Duke University and the University of Chicago found that Chicago criminals obtained their firearms almost exclusively from friends and family.

The survey, funded by the Joyce Foundation and set to be published in the October edition of Preventive Medicine, consisted of interviews with 99 inmates at Chicago’s Cook County Jail who had illegally possessed a gun within six months of their incarceration. It found that most criminals only acquired guns from people they knew and trusted.

----

The study found that due to fears of encountering undercover police officers attempting sting operations, a large majority of the criminals surveyed would only make illegal gun purchases from people they knew.

"In discussing the underground gun market in their neighborhoods, most respondents emphasized the importance of connections—prior relationships that could create sufficient trust to reassure the seller that the transaction would not create an unacceptable legal risk," the survey says. "

A majority of the primary guns (40 of the 48 for which we have detailed information on the source) were obtained from family, fellow gang members, or other social connections; the fraction is still higher for secondary guns."

"Only 2 of the 70 primary guns (3%) and no secondary guns were reported as purchased directly from a gun store."

The survey also found that criminals preferred handguns by a wide margin. Rifles, shotguns, and firearms that would be classified as "assault weapons" under Illinois law made up a small percentage of the guns criminals reported they had owned.

Additionally, the survey found that criminals kept their firearms for only a short period of time and had little knowledge of firearms.

The researchers noted that the findings may challenge what many believe about how criminals obtain firearms.

"Some of the pathways people are concerned about don’t seem so dominant," Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago’s Crime Lab and co-author of the survey, told the Chicago Sun-Times.
-------

"This proves what we have said all along," Alan Gottlieb, the founder of Second Amendment, told theFree Beacon. "Criminals don't go through background checks to acquire a gun. They don’t buy them at gun stores, gun shows, or on the Internet. They get them from family, friends, and fellow gang members. Gun control laws only affect lawful gun owners."

 

[2aguy]

There is a difference between laws that punish actual actions that harm others, and those that prevent people from having an item for the simple reason that they "might" do something wrong with it.

The reason we punish murderers is the State has taken over the right of justice from the victims relatives and friends, so the State punishes the offender for their ACTION instead of the aggrieved survivors hanging the perpetrator from the nearest tree.

A non qualified person buying fire arms does harm other's.

Which is already illegal. Non-qualified means convicted felons, and people adjudicated mentally unfit.

I know there is an exception for misdemeanor domestic violence, but would prefer we just make all domestic violence felonies instead of giving an exception for a specific misdemeanor.

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

And more....

In Opinion: Gun control—where do criminals get their weapons?

But while a majority of owners obtain their guns in transactions that are documented and for the most part legal, the same is not true for criminals.

A transaction can be illegal for several reasons, but of particular interest are transactions that involve disqualified individuals—those banned from purchase or possession due to criminal record, age, adjudicated mental illness, illegal alien status or some other reason.

Convicted felons, teenagers and other people who are legally barred from possession would ordinarily be blocked from purchasing a gun from a gun store, because they would fail the background check or lack the permit or license required by some states.

Anyone providing the gun in such transactions would be culpable if they had reason to know that the buyer was disqualified, if they were acting as a straw purchaser or if they violated state regulations pertaining to such private transactions.

The importance of the informal (undocumented) market in supplying criminals is suggested by the results of inmate surveys and data gleaned from guns confiscated by the police.

A national survey of inmates of state prisons found that just 10 percent of youthful (age 18-40) male respondents who admitted to having a gun at the time of their arrest had obtained it from a gun store. The other 90 percent obtained them through a variety of off-the-book means: for example, as gifts or sharing arrangements with fellow gang members.

Similarly, an ongoing study of how Chicago gang members get their guns has found that only a trivial percentage obtainedthem by direct purchase from a store.

(This essentially means they did not personally buy the gun...they used a straw buyer who buys the gun legally....)

To the extent that gun dealers are implicated in supplying dangerous people, it is more so by accommodating straw purchasers and traffickers than in selling directly to customers they know to be disqualified.

The supply chain of guns to crime

While criminals typically do not buy their guns at a store, all but a tiny fraction of the guns in circulation in the United States are first sold at retail by a gun dealer—including the guns thateventually end up in the hands of criminals.

That first retail sale was most likely legal, in that the clerk followed federal and state requirements for documentation, a background check and record-keeping. While there are scofflaw dealers who sometimes make under-the-counter deals, that is by no means the norm.

If a gun ends up in criminal use, it is usually after several more transactions.

The average age of guns taken from Chicago gangs is over 11 years.

The gun at that point has been diverted from legal commerce. In this respect, the supply chain for guns is similar to the supply chain for other products that have a large legal market but are subject to diversion.

In the case of guns, diversion from licit possession and exchange can occur in a variety of ways: theft, purchase at a gun show by an interstate trafficker, private sales where no questions are asked, straw purchases by girlfriends and so forth.

And here is the key....the smart criminals don't trust private sales with an unknown seller genius.....

All in the family

So how do gang members, violent criminals, underage youths and other dangerous people get their guns?

A consistent answer emerges from the inmate surveys and from ethnographic studies. Whether guns that end up being used in crime are purchased, swapped, borrowed, shared or stolen, themost likely source is someone known to the offender, an acquaintance or family member.

Also important are “street” sources, such as gang members and drug dealers, which may also entail a prior relationship.

Thus, social networks are playing an important role in facilitating transactions, and an individual (such as a gang member) who tends to hang out with people who have guns will find it relatively easy to obtain one.

---------------------

 

[2aguy]

Which is already illegal. Non-qualified means convicted felons, and people adjudicated mentally unfit.

I know there is an exception for misdemeanor domestic violence, but would prefer we just make all domestic violence felonies instead of giving an exception for a specific misdemeanor.

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

And more.....

How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

When they cannot find them in the grass, gangs get guns by trickery and by theft, by bribery and by intimidation. They often pay or force men who are legally entitled to buy guns to buy weapons for them at gun stores or shows.


Such a transaction is called a "straw man" purchase, but girlfriends and other women, often desperate to feed their children or a drug habit, are also used to buy weapons over the counter.

"We've found people who do it as a kind of side business," said Stephen P. Sinnott, an assistant United States Attorney in Chicago.

One gun-running ring at the city's western limits paid off its buyers with guns. For every half-dozen guns or so a straw man bought, he was allowed to keep one. In about 16 months, Mr. Singer said, the ring put more than 110 illegal guns on the streets. More than 20 of the guns have been recovered in drive-by shootings and drug deals gone bad.

The gangs and other criminals also get weapons through barter, or "trade-ins." The gangs trade narcotics for the guns of drug-addicted burglars, who will sell a $500 pistol fo

 

[rightwinger]

So where did the OP get the idea 'anti-gunners' say they'll stop at 10 round magazines? Plucked from his arse?

Slippery slope.......Slippery Slope!

 

[BULLDOG]

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

From the anti gun Joyce Foundation....

Study Finds That Chicago Criminals Get Guns From Friends, Family

A survey conducted by researchers from Duke University and the University of Chicago found that Chicago criminals obtained their firearms almost exclusively from friends and family.

The survey, funded by the Joyce Foundation and set to be published in the October edition of Preventive Medicine, consisted of interviews with 99 inmates at Chicago’s Cook County Jail who had illegally possessed a gun within six months of their incarceration. It found that most criminals only acquired guns from people they knew and trusted.

----

The study found that due to fears of encountering undercover police officers attempting sting operations, a large majority of the criminals surveyed would only make illegal gun purchases from people they knew.

"In discussing the underground gun market in their neighborhoods, most respondents emphasized the importance of connections—prior relationships that could create sufficient trust to reassure the seller that the transaction would not create an unacceptable legal risk," the survey says. "

A majority of the primary guns (40 of the 48 for which we have detailed information on the source) were obtained from family, fellow gang members, or other social connections; the fraction is still higher for secondary guns."

"Only 2 of the 70 primary guns (3%) and no secondary guns were reported as purchased directly from a gun store."

The survey also found that criminals preferred handguns by a wide margin. Rifles, shotguns, and firearms that would be classified as "assault weapons" under Illinois law made up a small percentage of the guns criminals reported they had owned.

Additionally, the survey found that criminals kept their firearms for only a short period of time and had little knowledge of firearms.

The researchers noted that the findings may challenge what many believe about how criminals obtain firearms.

"Some of the pathways people are concerned about don’t seem so dominant," Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago’s Crime Lab and co-author of the survey, told the Chicago Sun-Times.
-------

"This proves what we have said all along," Alan Gottlieb, the founder of Second Amendment, told theFree Beacon. "Criminals don't go through background checks to acquire a gun. They don’t buy them at gun stores, gun shows, or on the Internet. They get them from family, friends, and fellow gang members. Gun control laws only affect lawful gun owners."

Chicago is only one city. Anything to show the case is the same for the entire country?

 

[rightwinger]

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

And more.....

How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

When they cannot find them in the grass, gangs get guns by trickery and by theft, by bribery and by intimidation. They often pay or force men who are legally entitled to buy guns to buy weapons for them at gun stores or shows.


Such a transaction is called a "straw man" purchase, but girlfriends and other women, often desperate to feed their children or a drug habit, are also used to buy weapons over the counter.

"We've found people who do it as a kind of side business," said Stephen P. Sinnott, an assistant United States Attorney in Chicago.

One gun-running ring at the city's western limits paid off its buyers with guns. For every half-dozen guns or so a straw man bought, he was allowed to keep one. In about 16 months, Mr. Singer said, the ring put more than 110 illegal guns on the streets. More than 20 of the guns have been recovered in drive-by shootings and drug deals gone bad.

The gangs and other criminals also get weapons through barter, or "trade-ins." The gangs trade narcotics for the guns of drug-addicted burglars, who will sell a $500 pistol fo

More reason why we need to register guns

 

[2aguy]

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

And more.....

How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

When they cannot find them in the grass, gangs get guns by trickery and by theft, by bribery and by intimidation. They often pay or force men who are legally entitled to buy guns to buy weapons for them at gun stores or shows.


Such a transaction is called a "straw man" purchase, but girlfriends and other women, often desperate to feed their children or a drug habit, are also used to buy weapons over the counter.

"We've found people who do it as a kind of side business," said Stephen P. Sinnott, an assistant United States Attorney in Chicago.

One gun-running ring at the city's western limits paid off its buyers with guns. For every half-dozen guns or so a straw man bought, he was allowed to keep one. In about 16 months, Mr. Singer said, the ring put more than 110 illegal guns on the streets. More than 20 of the guns have been recovered in drive-by shootings and drug deals gone bad.

The gangs and other criminals also get weapons through barter, or "trade-ins." The gangs trade narcotics for the guns of drug-addicted burglars, who will sell a $500 pistol fo

More reason why we need to register guns

Registering guns doesn't do anything.....it doesn't solve crimes it doesn't stop crimes...and mass shooters will register their guns all day long.

 

[2aguy]

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

From the anti gun Joyce Foundation....

Study Finds That Chicago Criminals Get Guns From Friends, Family

A survey conducted by researchers from Duke University and the University of Chicago found that Chicago criminals obtained their firearms almost exclusively from friends and family.

The survey, funded by the Joyce Foundation and set to be published in the October edition of Preventive Medicine, consisted of interviews with 99 inmates at Chicago’s Cook County Jail who had illegally possessed a gun within six months of their incarceration. It found that most criminals only acquired guns from people they knew and trusted.

----

The study found that due to fears of encountering undercover police officers attempting sting operations, a large majority of the criminals surveyed would only make illegal gun purchases from people they knew.

"In discussing the underground gun market in their neighborhoods, most respondents emphasized the importance of connections—prior relationships that could create sufficient trust to reassure the seller that the transaction would not create an unacceptable legal risk," the survey says. "

A majority of the primary guns (40 of the 48 for which we have detailed information on the source) were obtained from family, fellow gang members, or other social connections; the fraction is still higher for secondary guns."

"Only 2 of the 70 primary guns (3%) and no secondary guns were reported as purchased directly from a gun store."

The survey also found that criminals preferred handguns by a wide margin. Rifles, shotguns, and firearms that would be classified as "assault weapons" under Illinois law made up a small percentage of the guns criminals reported they had owned.

Additionally, the survey found that criminals kept their firearms for only a short period of time and had little knowledge of firearms.

The researchers noted that the findings may challenge what many believe about how criminals obtain firearms.

"Some of the pathways people are concerned about don’t seem so dominant," Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago’s Crime Lab and co-author of the survey, told the Chicago Sun-Times.
-------

"This proves what we have said all along," Alan Gottlieb, the founder of Second Amendment, told theFree Beacon. "Criminals don't go through background checks to acquire a gun. They don’t buy them at gun stores, gun shows, or on the Internet. They get them from family, friends, and fellow gang members. Gun control laws only affect lawful gun owners."

Chicago is only one city. Anything to show the case is the same for the entire country?

Yeah.....

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.



According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.



Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

 

[BULLDOG]

A non qualified person buying fire arms does harm other's.

Which is already illegal. Non-qualified means convicted felons, and people adjudicated mentally unfit.

I know there is an exception for misdemeanor domestic violence, but would prefer we just make all domestic violence felonies instead of giving an exception for a specific misdemeanor.

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

And more....

In Opinion: Gun control—where do criminals get their weapons?

But while a majority of owners obtain their guns in transactions that are documented and for the most part legal, the same is not true for criminals.

A transaction can be illegal for several reasons, but of particular interest are transactions that involve disqualified individuals—those banned from purchase or possession due to criminal record, age, adjudicated mental illness, illegal alien status or some other reason.

Convicted felons, teenagers and other people who are legally barred from possession would ordinarily be blocked from purchasing a gun from a gun store, because they would fail the background check or lack the permit or license required by some states.

Anyone providing the gun in such transactions would be culpable if they had reason to know that the buyer was disqualified, if they were acting as a straw purchaser or if they violated state regulations pertaining to such private transactions.

The importance of the informal (undocumented) market in supplying criminals is suggested by the results of inmate surveys and data gleaned from guns confiscated by the police.

A national survey of inmates of state prisons found that just 10 percent of youthful (age 18-40) male respondents who admitted to having a gun at the time of their arrest had obtained it from a gun store. The other 90 percent obtained them through a variety of off-the-book means: for example, as gifts or sharing arrangements with fellow gang members.

Similarly, an ongoing study of how Chicago gang members get their guns has found that only a trivial percentage obtainedthem by direct purchase from a store.

(This essentially means they did not personally buy the gun...they used a straw buyer who buys the gun legally....)

To the extent that gun dealers are implicated in supplying dangerous people, it is more so by accommodating straw purchasers and traffickers than in selling directly to customers they know to be disqualified.

The supply chain of guns to crime

While criminals typically do not buy their guns at a store, all but a tiny fraction of the guns in circulation in the United States are first sold at retail by a gun dealer—including the guns thateventually end up in the hands of criminals.

That first retail sale was most likely legal, in that the clerk followed federal and state requirements for documentation, a background check and record-keeping. While there are scofflaw dealers who sometimes make under-the-counter deals, that is by no means the norm.

If a gun ends up in criminal use, it is usually after several more transactions.

The average age of guns taken from Chicago gangs is over 11 years.

The gun at that point has been diverted from legal commerce. In this respect, the supply chain for guns is similar to the supply chain for other products that have a large legal market but are subject to diversion.

In the case of guns, diversion from licit possession and exchange can occur in a variety of ways: theft, purchase at a gun show by an interstate trafficker, private sales where no questions are asked, straw purchases by girlfriends and so forth.

And here is the key....the smart criminals don't trust private sales with an unknown seller genius.....

All in the family

So how do gang members, violent criminals, underage youths and other dangerous people get their guns?

A consistent answer emerges from the inmate surveys and from ethnographic studies. Whether guns that end up being used in crime are purchased, swapped, borrowed, shared or stolen, themost likely source is someone known to the offender, an acquaintance or family member.

Also important are “street” sources, such as gang members and drug dealers, which may also entail a prior relationship.

Thus, social networks are playing an important role in facilitating transactions, and an individual (such as a gang member) who tends to hang out with people who have guns will find it relatively easy to obtain one.

---------------------

So when did an opinion piece become a credible source, silly?

 

[BULLDOG]

You already said crooks won't follow the law. That's why we need universal checks, so honest sellers will know not to sell to them.

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

And more.....

How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

When they cannot find them in the grass, gangs get guns by trickery and by theft, by bribery and by intimidation. They often pay or force men who are legally entitled to buy guns to buy weapons for them at gun stores or shows.


Such a transaction is called a "straw man" purchase, but girlfriends and other women, often desperate to feed their children or a drug habit, are also used to buy weapons over the counter.

"We've found people who do it as a kind of side business," said Stephen P. Sinnott, an assistant United States Attorney in Chicago.

One gun-running ring at the city's western limits paid off its buyers with guns. For every half-dozen guns or so a straw man bought, he was allowed to keep one. In about 16 months, Mr. Singer said, the ring put more than 110 illegal guns on the streets. More than 20 of the guns have been recovered in drive-by shootings and drug deals gone bad.

The gangs and other criminals also get weapons through barter, or "trade-ins." The gangs trade narcotics for the guns of drug-addicted burglars, who will sell a $500 pistol fo

Chicago again. You got another town? Any other town?

 

[2aguy]

Criminals use straw buyers...people who can pass background checks...you know this, but insist on pushing it anyway....

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

And more.....

How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

When they cannot find them in the grass, gangs get guns by trickery and by theft, by bribery and by intimidation. They often pay or force men who are legally entitled to buy guns to buy weapons for them at gun stores or shows.


Such a transaction is called a "straw man" purchase, but girlfriends and other women, often desperate to feed their children or a drug habit, are also used to buy weapons over the counter.

"We've found people who do it as a kind of side business," said Stephen P. Sinnott, an assistant United States Attorney in Chicago.

One gun-running ring at the city's western limits paid off its buyers with guns. For every half-dozen guns or so a straw man bought, he was allowed to keep one. In about 16 months, Mr. Singer said, the ring put more than 110 illegal guns on the streets. More than 20 of the guns have been recovered in drive-by shootings and drug deals gone bad.

The gangs and other criminals also get weapons through barter, or "trade-ins." The gangs trade narcotics for the guns of drug-addicted burglars, who will sell a $500 pistol fo

Chicago again. You got another town? Any other town?

Yeah......keep playing games...


frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.



According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.



Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

 

[BULLDOG]

I already ask for proof that criminals only get their guns from straw buyers, but you haven't produced it yet. I guess you forgot.

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

From the anti gun Joyce Foundation....

Study Finds That Chicago Criminals Get Guns From Friends, Family

A survey conducted by researchers from Duke University and the University of Chicago found that Chicago criminals obtained their firearms almost exclusively from friends and family.

The survey, funded by the Joyce Foundation and set to be published in the October edition of Preventive Medicine, consisted of interviews with 99 inmates at Chicago’s Cook County Jail who had illegally possessed a gun within six months of their incarceration. It found that most criminals only acquired guns from people they knew and trusted.

----

The study found that due to fears of encountering undercover police officers attempting sting operations, a large majority of the criminals surveyed would only make illegal gun purchases from people they knew.

"In discussing the underground gun market in their neighborhoods, most respondents emphasized the importance of connections—prior relationships that could create sufficient trust to reassure the seller that the transaction would not create an unacceptable legal risk," the survey says. "

A majority of the primary guns (40 of the 48 for which we have detailed information on the source) were obtained from family, fellow gang members, or other social connections; the fraction is still higher for secondary guns."

"Only 2 of the 70 primary guns (3%) and no secondary guns were reported as purchased directly from a gun store."

The survey also found that criminals preferred handguns by a wide margin. Rifles, shotguns, and firearms that would be classified as "assault weapons" under Illinois law made up a small percentage of the guns criminals reported they had owned.

Additionally, the survey found that criminals kept their firearms for only a short period of time and had little knowledge of firearms.

The researchers noted that the findings may challenge what many believe about how criminals obtain firearms.

"Some of the pathways people are concerned about don’t seem so dominant," Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago’s Crime Lab and co-author of the survey, told the Chicago Sun-Times.
-------

"This proves what we have said all along," Alan Gottlieb, the founder of Second Amendment, told theFree Beacon. "Criminals don't go through background checks to acquire a gun. They don’t buy them at gun stores, gun shows, or on the Internet. They get them from family, friends, and fellow gang members. Gun control laws only affect lawful gun owners."

Chicago is only one city. Anything to show the case is the same for the entire country?

Yeah.....

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.



According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.



Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

So this link lists about a half dozen sources for crooks to get guns in southern California, I guess that means that your claim that they get guns only two ways is bullshit. Chicago and Southern California still doesn't cover the entire country, and obviously different areas have different ways for crooks to get guns. Care to back up and start over?

 

[2aguy]

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

From the anti gun Joyce Foundation....

Study Finds That Chicago Criminals Get Guns From Friends, Family

A survey conducted by researchers from Duke University and the University of Chicago found that Chicago criminals obtained their firearms almost exclusively from friends and family.

The survey, funded by the Joyce Foundation and set to be published in the October edition of Preventive Medicine, consisted of interviews with 99 inmates at Chicago’s Cook County Jail who had illegally possessed a gun within six months of their incarceration. It found that most criminals only acquired guns from people they knew and trusted.

----

The study found that due to fears of encountering undercover police officers attempting sting operations, a large majority of the criminals surveyed would only make illegal gun purchases from people they knew.

"In discussing the underground gun market in their neighborhoods, most respondents emphasized the importance of connections—prior relationships that could create sufficient trust to reassure the seller that the transaction would not create an unacceptable legal risk," the survey says. "

A majority of the primary guns (40 of the 48 for which we have detailed information on the source) were obtained from family, fellow gang members, or other social connections; the fraction is still higher for secondary guns."

"Only 2 of the 70 primary guns (3%) and no secondary guns were reported as purchased directly from a gun store."

The survey also found that criminals preferred handguns by a wide margin. Rifles, shotguns, and firearms that would be classified as "assault weapons" under Illinois law made up a small percentage of the guns criminals reported they had owned.

Additionally, the survey found that criminals kept their firearms for only a short period of time and had little knowledge of firearms.

The researchers noted that the findings may challenge what many believe about how criminals obtain firearms.

"Some of the pathways people are concerned about don’t seem so dominant," Harold Pollack, co-director of the University of Chicago’s Crime Lab and co-author of the survey, told the Chicago Sun-Times.
-------

"This proves what we have said all along," Alan Gottlieb, the founder of Second Amendment, told theFree Beacon. "Criminals don't go through background checks to acquire a gun. They don’t buy them at gun stores, gun shows, or on the Internet. They get them from family, friends, and fellow gang members. Gun control laws only affect lawful gun owners."

Chicago is only one city. Anything to show the case is the same for the entire country?

Yeah.....

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.



The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.



According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.



Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

So this link lists about a half dozen sources for crooks to get guns in southern California, I guess that means that your claim that they get guns only two ways is bullshit. Chicago and Southern California still doesn't cover the entire country, and obviously different areas have different ways for crooks to get guns. Care to back up and start over?

....this is actual research from several sources.....you were proven wrong, you won't admit it, you are now going to try to cover your embarrassment with petty behavior.....