Like I never said the 'first life' was some random folding action in some primordial soup.
Anyone Still Believing in the Evolution Fraud Should Watch This
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progressive hunter
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and yet you still claim evo as fact,,
you sir are proof if you repeat something enough times the simple minded will believe it,,
Leo123
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Well then, where did 'first life' come from in your opinion? Where is your proof? So far, no one has been able to replicate the origin of life.
Again you confuse 'evidence' with 'proof'. And yes, evolution/descent from a common ancestor is a scientific fact.
We don't know and may never know. We have plausible theories but will never have proof. Still puts science one up on creationism, it doesn't even have a working theory or evidence, let alone proof.
Fort Fun Indiana
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What is "first life"?
Pick anything you like. It will be arbitrary.
What you are asking is like asking when "the first chimpanzee" was born. It's a question without any real meaning.
Leo123
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Yes but, you are citing evolution AFTER the creation of a living organism. Evolution requires something to evolve FROM. What evolved to create life? Can you prove it?
Fort Fun Indiana
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What would such "proof" look like?
progressive hunter
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and that evidence is opinions based on assumptions with a predetermined outcome,,
just because we may have the same genes,dna or any of the other chemical markers you may bring up is not proof or evidence of anything but we were created form the same box of parts,,
when you can show how that common ancestor gave birth to two different things to split the lineage then we can talk,,
Fort Fun Indiana
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Hey look, a little red meat to chew on.
So, when we analyze mRNA... and it shows exactly what the fossil record shows, and what physiology shows....
What is the opinion or aassumpotion they are operating on? Commonality between two mRNA samples is a chemical fact that we can measure. There is no assumption in a measurement. The degree of commonality is a measurement.
So, what gives? Why does the mRNA evidence show all of it?
Exactly.
There is no definable boundary that anyone can draw between the living and non-living.
All the nonsense about reproduction and respiration are just attributes, they don't define life.
There is no origin.
Life is a basic physical property of the universe. It's built into spacetime.
You guys are mighty hard headed. Stuck on a linear model of time that probably isn't even accurate.
Do you know what an information dimension is?
Look it up.
The scientist Alfred Renyi defined it in the mid 20th century.
It's based on the simple observation that the distance you measure depends on the size of your yardstick.
The information dimension tells you how much your measurements change when you change the size of your yardstick.
It's a high level view of entropy. Very scientific and physical.
And for Sherlock Holmes - do you know what "locally" Euclidean means?
A Klein bottle is "locally" Euclidean almost everywhere. Except in a very tiny circle.
Similarly, Newtonian gravity is valid "almost everywhere" on earth. Except in a few laboratories where Einstein-Bose condensates hover in mid air.
The problem for creatÃonists is that nonlinear couplings are effective "almost everywhere" in the known universe. They cause things like stable shapes in chemical reactions. If you put some gas in a liquid and heat it up, you get a highly nonlinear attractor that achieves stable shapes very easily.
Do you realize that artificial peptide synthesis has been going on for almost 14 decades now? They do it in machines called sequinators, they can assemble a protein in a matter of seconds.
Evolution doesn't even require "generations". Mutations happen in individuals. There are about 10^13 random mutations in an average human being from birth till death, and that's WITH our very powerful DNA repair mechanisms. If you do the math, that works out to a few thousand per second. That's how fast evolution is. Lab bacteria can acquire resistance to antibiotics in less than 24 hours. Because there are lots and lots of mutations happening all the time. The chances of something useful happening are very high.
And, only 60-80 proteins are needed to sustain a living cell. The minimal genome is very tiny. The math says the emergence of life is "highly likely" in favorable conditions.
Time for you guys to learn some math.
Question: how long does it take a cell to synthesize a protein of average length? (Say, 300 amino acids)?
Answer: about 15 seconds.
And... what is the rate of errors during that 15 seconds?
Answer: averages about 10^-4. So 1 in every 10,000 proteins will have a mistake in it. 1 mistake every 10,000 x 15 seconds.
So we can do some quick math, if it takes 150,000 seconds to make 10k proteins, that means we'll have a mistake every 40 hours or so.
But that's PER RIBOSOME.
How many ribosomes are in an average cell? In humans, the answer is about a million. That means, PER CELL, we get a mistake about every 1/6 of a second.
And how many cells are in a human body?
Answer: about 30 trillion. 3 x 10^13. times 1/6 of a second works out to about 5 trillion mistakes PER SECOND. In y'r average human being.
Multiply by an average lifespan, say 60 years, and we have 5 * 3600 * 24 * 365 * 60 trillion mistakes.
That's roughly 10 billion trillion mistakes.
Call them mutations, call them mistakes, call them anything you want. They are misshapen misfolded proteins.
So, how many of these 10^21 bogus proteins affect cell division?
A human cell has about 10,000 different proteins, with at least 100 copies per protein and sometimes as many as a million. Of these, about 100 directly affect cell division. These are mostly the mitogens, cyclins, and cyclin dependent kinases. Let's be conservative and say 100 copies of each times 100 impactful proteins, so about 10000 copies of important proteins. At 15 seconds each a ribosome will take 150,000 seconds or a little over 40 hours to make these. At 1 mistake out of every 10,000 we expect 1 mistake in cell division every 40 hours.
So, in a journey to adulthood that takes 20 years, we expect about 7 million errors in cell division. We expect these will be impactful in stem cells, which includes germ cells and ovaries.
And that's proteins only, it doesn't even include the DNA!
The likelihood of genetic variations caused by proteins alone, is ENORMOUS!
Anyone who argues against evolution has to deal with these numbers. Each of these numbers is verifiable with a quick Google search. Any way you slice it, human beings are still evolving rapidly. We can do the same kind of math on the DNA with equally significant results. The idea that our species is somehow "stable" is nothing but a pipe dream.
Question: how long does it take a cell to synthesize a protein of average length? (Say, 300 amino acids)?
Answer: about 15 seconds.
And... what is the rate of errors during that 15 seconds?
Answer: averages about 10^-4. So 1 in every 10,000 proteins will have a mistake in it. 1 mistake every 10,000 x 15 seconds.
So we can do some quick math, if it takes 150,000 seconds to make 10k proteins, that means we'll have a mistake every 40 hours or so.
But that's PER RIBOSOME.
How many ribosomes are in an average cell? In humans, the answer is about a million. That means, PER CELL, we get a mistake about every 1/6 of a second.
And how many cells are in a human body?
Answer: about 30 trillion. 3 x 10^13. times 1/6 of a second works out to about 5 trillion mistakes PER SECOND. In y'r average human being.
Multiply by an average lifespan, say 60 years, and we have 5 * 3600 * 24 * 365 * 60 trillion mistakes.
That's roughly 10 billion trillion mistakes.
Call them mutations, call them mistakes, call them anything you want. They are misshapen misfolded proteins.
So, how many of these 10^21 bogus proteins affect cell division?
A human cell has about 10,000 different proteins, with at least 100 copies per protein and sometimes as many as a million. Of these, about 100 directly affect cell division. These are mostly the mitogens, cyclins, and cyclin dependent kinases. Let's be conservative and say 100 copies of each times 100 impactful proteins, so about 10000 copies of important proteins. At 15 seconds each a ribosome will take 150,000 seconds or a little over 40 hours to make these. At 1 mistake out of every 10,000 we expect 1 mistake in cell division every 40 hours.
So, in a journey to adulthood that takes 20 years, we expect about 7 million errors in cell division. We expect these will be impactful in stem cells, which includes germ cells and ovaries.
And that's proteins only, it doesn't even include the DNA!
The likelihood of genetic variations caused by proteins alone, is ENORMOUS!
Anyone who argues against evolution has to deal with these numbers. Each of these numbers is verifiable with a quick Google search. Any way you slice it, human beings are still evolving rapidly. We can do the same kind of math on the DNA with equally significant results. The idea that our species is somehow "stable" is nothing but a pipe dream.
You guys are stuck in Flatland.
Try lifting your head out of the page.
There is no "first life", it's a figment of your imagination.
Do you know about "negative temperature"? Check it out. Look it up.
It's related to entropy. Negative temperatures happen when the number of available states decreases as more energy is added.
Temperature turns out to be compactified. It's a circle, with 0 on top, and just like in the brain, 0 is a singularity. There's no such thing as 0 temperature, it's a boundary that cant be crossed.
However you can go the other way around the circle, and when you do, you'll see that negative temperatures are actually "hotter than" the coolest positive temperature.
If you put a negative temperature system next to a positive one, heat will flow from the negative to the positive.
Sigh.
You seem like a smart person, have you ever checked out the embryology of a fruit fly? We know quite a bit about it. It's very logical. Everything is based on competition and cooperation. It's actually pretty simple and easy to understand
First of all you have gradients, of proteins and RNA. They look like this:
These gradients define which end is up, so to speak. They divide the embryo into 3 parts, a head, a tail, and a big section in the middle. The middle section is the further subdivided by a set of genes that compete with the first set. They have varying affinities for the same binding sites, resulting in an orderly and linear banding pattern, like this:
The thing is, the original concentrations (gradients) change over time, as more information is added to the system. Later on, the original gradients look like this:
The interactions between these gradients are ubiquitous in all advanced life. They are the cause of "shape", or what we might call "species".
After the general layout has been defined, things get more specific. There are additional gradients that get superimposed over the existing ones.
None of this is difficult to comprehend, it's all simple competition for binding sites. The interesting part is how the gradients get maintained. The short story is every cell has a skeleton made of microtubules, which ratchet molecules preferentially in one direction in an amount determined by the local gradient concentrations.
The same thing happens along the transverse axis, to determine dorsal and ventral characteristics. If you put it all together, it boils down to nothing more than a pattern of gradients.
Sorry but your questions show a fundamental lack of understanding of biogenesis, evolution, and proofs so I'm unable to answer.
Can you prove we didn't evolve from a common ancestor? Can you offer an alternative theory that you can prove?
Woodznutz
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Living in accord with my beliefs has worked very well for me.
Woodznutz
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Which species was involved in those studies?
Zincwarrior
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