Anti-gun talking points ….

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

20,950 gun murders
80 percent of all murders use guns
50 percent of suicides involve guns

If guns were the problem, gun deaths wouldn't be going down.

 

[JoeB131]

If guns were the problem, gun deaths wouldn't be going down.

Except they aren't going down. 2020 was an all time record.

 

[Failzero]

180 thousand Crimes thwarted or ended by Firearms in the hands of Law Abiding Citizenry In 2022 alone

 

[JoeB131]

180 thousand Crimes thwarted or ended by Firearms in the hands of Law Abiding Citizenry In 2022 alone

Bullshit.

Only 200 homicides are ruled as self defense with guns by gunowners.

So you would have us believe that a gun nut finally gets to shoot him a criminal, and 179,800 of those times, doesn't need to kill him.

Just not buying it... the way you guys masturbate over nuts like Zimmerman and Rittenhouse, if this was common, you'd be cheering the guys who DIDN'T murder anyone.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Except they aren't going down. 2020 was an all time record.

You know this is 2023. Right?

And murders are down. That includes gun murders.

 

[JoeB131]

You know this is 2023. Right?

And murders are down. That includes gun murders.

Do you have a source?

Down from 2020 wouldn't be that impressive, given the whole society fell apart in that year.

The latest figures I could find only go up to 2021. The numbers for 21 are slightly lower than 20, but still higher than 19.

Number of homicides by firearm in the U.S. 2023 | Statista

In 2023, 13,529 recorded murders in the United States were committed by firearm.

www.statista.com

 

[Failzero]

You know this is 2023. Right?

And murders are down. That includes gun murders.

Going down due to self defense usage of Firearms ?

 

[M14 Shooter]

tl; dr; dc.

^^^^
Hates the truth.

We have 30K gun deaths a year. No other advanced society has anywhere near as many.
Clearly they are doing something right and we are doing something wrong.

^^^^
Mindlessly said, repeatedly challenged, never meaningfully explained.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Going down due to self defense usage of Firearms ?

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter, because of gun ownership is up and gun deaths are down, then guns aren't the problem.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Do you have a source?

Down from 2020 wouldn't be that impressive, given the whole society fell apart in that year.

The latest figures I could find only go up to 2021. The numbers for 21 are slightly lower than 20, but still higher than 19.

Number of homicides by firearm in the U.S. 2023 | Statista

In 2023, 13,529 recorded murders in the United States were committed by firearm.

www.statista.com

Do you have a source?

Down from 2020 wouldn't be that impressive, given the whole society fell apart in that year.

The latest figures I could find only go up to 2021. The numbers for 21 are slightly lower than 20, but still higher than 19.

Number of homicides by firearm in the U.S. 2023 | Statista

In 2023, 13,529 recorded murders in the United States were committed by firearm.

www.statista.com

Overall gun death declined in 2022, compared to 2021 by 1.9%.

If guns were the problem, overall gun deaths wouldn't have declined.

 

[Captain Caveman]

How does the "gun" do that?

Saying "the gun" is a deflection from the gun debate. The whole purpose of gun law/regulations and gun safety is on the person. Is the person safe, is the person suitable (clean background, medically ok, adequate reason). Just like anything on the planet, you can regulate the features to what's safe or not allowed etc.. But you don't have checks, measures, laws and regs on the people, then you get American bun incident stats. Then on top of that, you need to educate the population that guns are not to shoot others.

So with American gun mentality/culture and the 2A, you're pretty fucked up.

 

[Batcat]

A list of the anti-gun talking points that anti-gun extremists use instead of facts, truth and reality…..

White6, the Mitt Romney of our gun debates, Captain caveman,joe, and the other anti-gun extremists are represented on the list……

A. Gun owners are never trained enough so are dangerous and shouldn’t be armed at all.

B. Gun owners who do train are crazy psychos living out their wannabe fantasies itching to shoot someone.

C. Even though it takes orders of magnitude more effort to become marginally effective with martial arts than a gun, you are better off using martial arts and not having a gun.

D. Real Men use their hands. This is why your mom and grandma shouldn’t have guns either.

E. Twitter randos who have never been punched in the face are experts on real life violence, and whatever you have personally experienced doesn’t count.

F. No matter how trained you are, it is never enough for the hypothetical attacker they make up. Sure, your concealed handgun might be enough to stop a regular robber or rapist, but what about if you get attacked by 20 Chechen terrorists with AKs, huh? Huh? (we call this the Dracula Riding Godzilla rule)

G. If the anti-gun vulture was ever in the military, this makes them a Military Trained Expert. Even though most of the time this means they got to put 20 rounds through an M-16 once in 1992.

H. No matter how many certified MMA bad asses or combat vets go “lol wut, dork? I’d rather have a gun.” the anti-gun Twitter vulture will remain undeterred.

I. Goldilocks Rules apply. No matter how much you know about guns, you’re either too ignorant and dangerous, or you know too much and that makes you dangerous. Whatever amount the anti-gun zealot knows is Just Right.

K. Whatever stats they pull out of their ass are sacrosanct. If you cite any numbers they reflexively scream “SOURCE?!” and then have some reason they won’t accept that source when provided. “The actual FBI Crime Statistics? LAME!”

L. At some point they’ll need to talk about how big our penises are, because guns are for compensation. Obviously the female gun owners are compensating for their tiny uteruses.

M. “I believe in the Second Amendment BUUUUUUUUT-” (insert statist bullshit here)

N. If you insist on using terms correctly and words having actual definitions, clearly this demonstrates you are a fanatic. Words mean whatever they need to mean in that moment, especially legal ones.
————-
S. AR-15s are the most dangerous gun that’s ever existed. It can fire ten thousand ultra deadly murder bullets a second and each one can explode a moose from a thousand yards away. There is nothing this miracle death machine can’t do.

T. lol your AR-15s are utterly useless against a tyrannical government.

U. The NRA is an all-powerful, super evil entity which has tricked innocent Americans into wanting ultra deadly assault rifles, to satisfy their incessant blood lust. They do this through their ultra powerful marketing, like giving out free hats.

The A-Z guide to anti-gun vulture talking points on Facebook | Monster Hunter Nation

monsterhunternation.com

In the Free State of Florida we no longer have to have a license to conceal carry a weapon. It would have been nice to be able to open carry but Florida likes to keep tourists happy. Many tourists from the blue states don’t realize how many Floridians are carrying concealed. If they did they would panic and head home to their wonderful red state with all its gun control laws.

You can still get a concealed carry permit today in Florida if you want one and 2.5 million people have that license.

Much thanks to Governor Desantis, IMO the best Governor florida has had in the half century I have lived here.

Concealed Weapon or Firearm License Summary Report
October 1, 1987 - October 31, 2023

https://ccmedia.fdacs.gov/content/download/7499/file/cw_monthly.pdf

Gun owners may want concealed carry permit, despite Florida's new permitless carry rule

Starting July 1, it will be legal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit. But Wilton Simpson, the state's new commissioner of agriculture, is still encouraging Floridians to get one for a few reasons.

www.fox13news.com

 

[Auld Phart]

Saying "the gun" is a deflection from the gun debate. The whole purpose of gun law/regulations and gun safety is on the person. Is the person safe, is the person suitable (clean background, medically ok, adequate reason). Just like anything on the planet, you can regulate the features to what's safe or not allowed etc.. But you don't have checks, measures, laws and regs on the people, then you get American bun incident stats. Then on top of that, you need to educate the population that guns are not to shoot others.

So with American gun mentality/culture and the 2A, you're pretty fucked up.

Saying "the gun" is a deflection from the gun debate.

HOW is it a deflection?



there are an estimated 600,000,000 firearms in the hands of civilians, yet less than 30,000 die annually.

with all those firearms, enough to kill double the population, why aren't there more deaths?

It's not the gun, it's the person holding it.

 

[2aguy]

Wow, 2TinyGuy has finally flipped, hasn't he?


Most of these arguments I've never seen made, and certainly not in the hyperbolic way you did.

Mostof them aren't well trained, it's why we have so many accidents, or guns used in domestic violence incidents.


Some of you ARE crazy psychos. We should probalby do something about that.


A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.. so that's a good reason.

I know a lady who kept a gun in the home for that reason, and came home from dinner with her husband to find her teenage son used it on himself.



I've been in more than a few fistfights... buy you know what, everyone walked away from that alive. You can't say the same if a gun was in the mix.



Again, this is largely true because the attacker has the advantage of a plan. Unless you are a paranoid loon fondling your gun every second (which I kind of suspect describes you, I don't know a man who loved a woman the way you love guns) the attacker always has the element of surprise and iniative.



The actual FBI Crime statistics show that Defensive Gun Uses are rare.


Well, you are compensating for something, aren't you?


The Second Amendment was about militias, not gun ownership. Militias are clearly mentioned, Guns are not.


Sandy Hook. Aurora. Stoneman High School. Uvalde. Highland Park. We've seen what AR-15's can do in the wrong hands.

Um, yeah, because they have tanks, bombers, and usually, the tacit support of most of the population.



Actually, the ironic thing is the NRA used to be a sane organization. When violence increased in the 1960's, the NRA and Republican Governors signed sensible laws like the Mulford Act to keep the Black Panthers from walking around with guns threatening people.

The NRA doesn't give a shit about regular gun owners, it's there to promote gun sales, and the best way to do that is to keep people scared. How do you scare people? Make it easy for crazy people to get guns.

guns are not 43 times more liklely to kill you......

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their “scientific research” proved that defending oneself or one’s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counterproductive, claiming “a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder.” This erroneous assertion is what Dr. Edgar Suter, chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), has accurately termed Kellermann’s “43 times fallacy” for gun ownership.7



In a critical and now classic review published in the March 1994 Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Suter not only found evidence of “methodologic and conceptual errors,” such as prejudicially truncated data and non-sequitur logic, but also “overt mendacity,” including the listing of “the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors.” Moreover, the gun-control researchers “deceptively understated” the protective benefits of guns. Suter wrote: “The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected—not the burglar or rapist body count. Since only 0.1 percent-0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000.”8

Greater Risk to Victims?​

In 1993, in another peer-reviewed NEJM article (the research again heavily funded by the CDC), Kellermann attempted to show that guns in the home are a greater risk to the residents than to the assailants. Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Kellermann used the same flawed methodology and non-sequitur approach. He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected counties known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example, 53 percent of the case subjects had a household member who had been arrested, 31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and 17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. Moreover, the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a high incidence of financial instability. In fact, gun ownership, the supposedly high-risk factor for homicide, was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being a murder victim. Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, a history of family violence, and living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than having a gun in the home. There is no basis for applying the conclusions to the general population.

Most important, Kellermann and his associates again failed to consider the protective benefits of firearms.

In this 1993 study, they arrived at the “2.7 times fallacy.” In other words, they downsized their fallacy and claimed a family member is 2.7 times more likely to kill another family member than an intruder. Yet, a fallacy is still a fallacy and, as such, it deserves no place in scientific investigations and peer-reviewed medical publications.

Although the 1993 NEJM study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is, as Kates and associates showed, 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who didn’t live in the victims’ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.9

While Kellermann and associates began with 444 cases of homicides in the home, cases were dropped from the study for a variety of reasons, and in the end, only 316 matched pairs were used, representing only 71.2 percent of the original 444 homicide cases. This reduction increased tremendously the chance for sampling bias. Analysis of why 28.8 percent of the cases were dropped would have helped indicate if the study had been compromised by the existence of such biases, but Dr. Kellermann, in an unprecedented move, refused to release his data and make it available for other researchers to analyze.

These errors invalidated the findings of the 1993 Kellermann study, just as they tainted those of 1986. Nevertheless, the errors have crept into and now permeate the lay press, the electronic media, and particularly, the medical journals, where they remain uncorrected and are repeated time and again as gospel. The media and gun-control groups still cling to the “43 times fallacy” and repeatedly invoke the erroneous mantra that “a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder.” And, because the publication of the data (and their purported conclusions) supposedly come from “reliable” sources and objective medical researchers, they are given a lot of weight and credibility by practicing physicians, social scientists (who should know better), social workers, law-enforcement officials, and particularly gun-banning politicians.


The Tainted Public-Health Model of Gun Control | Miguel A. Faria Jr.

 

[2aguy]

About eight-in-ten U.S. murders in 2021 – 20,958 out of 26,031, or 81% – involved a firearm. That marked the highest percentage since at least 1968, the earliest year for which the CDC has online records. More than half of all suicides in 2021 – 26,328 out of 48,183, or 55% – also involved a gun, the highest percentage since 2001.

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

While the number of gun deaths in the U.S. fell for the second consecutive year in 2023, it remained among the highest annual totals on record.

www.pewresearch.org

And Americans use their legal gus 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, shootings, stabbings, beatings, and mass public shootings.........

Hmmmmm

And suicides are not a gun issue.....since Japan, China, South Korea all have extreme gun control, and higher suicide rates than we do.....also, a large number of European countries, also with extreme gun control....have higher suicide rates than we do.....as does Canada....

 

[rightwinger]

And Americans use their legal gus 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, shootings, stabbings, beatings, and mass public shootings.........

Gun nut fantasies

 

[Failzero]

Gun nut fantasies

Even if it’s 1/3 that number it’s impressive and effective

 

[2aguy]

Gun nut fantasies

Thanks, I never get tired of showing the list of studies showing the research into defensive gun use......

Lives saved....based on research? By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


There are roughly 100,000 people shot in the United States yearly, and something over 30,000 die. If this 1/3 vs. 2/3 ratio of deaths to injuries in actual shootings pertains in these DGUs, that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.



that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—

==============

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. to the when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2013. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press.

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

tl; dr; dc.

We have 30K gun deaths a year. No other advanced society has anywhere near as many.

Clearly they are doing something right and we are doing something wrong.

The Only Significant Stat

What is the rate of Whites when not in self-defense?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

And most of those countries have been invaded by their neighbors and mega-millions murdered. You idiots have been fooled into thinking that disarming law abiding citizens is going keep you safe. Criminals and a tyrannical government don't follow laws.

Headed for a Beheading

The Israelis around Gaza followed the Liberals' advice on gun-control.