Another Strike in the World's Most "Progressive" Country

[Hobbit]

I picked up a book of over 3,000 random facts in Book a Million yesterday and turned to the military section. All you vets will be amused by this. In the Netherlands, widely lauded as the utopian model for secular progressivism everywhere, has problems with its military. Military personell are paid on an hourly basis and are given overtime, plus extra for unsavory duties like KP and latrine duty. It has been this way ever since the military was unionized. So tell me, how many of you retired and current (I've been there so I can use these terms lovingly and without a chops-busting) grunts, jarheads, swabbies, and flyboys have gotten overtime pay or extra for unsavory duties?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

So tell me, how many of you retired and current (I've been there so I can use these terms lovingly and without a chops-busting) grunts, jarheads, swabbies, and flyboys have gotten overtime pay or extra for unsavory duties?

So are you making fun of the Netherlands for paying their troops well or making an argument that it sucks to work for the US military?

 

[nosarcasm]

all you have to know about the Dutch army, I saw some of their
soldiers having dreadlocks and long hair.

No wonder they run from the Serbs. Worthless army.

 

[CSM]

I've drawn hazardous duty pay (combat pay), does that count? I always thought combat was an unsavory duty.

 

[GotZoom]

I understand some incentives - hazardous duty pay, overseas pay..etc.

But overtime? KP and Latrine duty is unsavory?

It's all about descipline and the desire to make sacrifices for your country.

If the Netherlands wants to treat their military like a retail job, so be it.

Of course, when they are really needed, we all know what they can expect.

 

[Mr. P]

I've drawn hazardous duty pay (combat pay), does that count? I always thought combat was an unsavory duty.

Does this mean I must refund my flight pay?
Or can I charge for the overnights sitting beside a “RED” phone in case we went to War?

 

[Hobbit]

So are you making fun of the Netherlands for paying their troops well or making an argument that it sucks to work for the US military?

I'm making fun of the Netherlands for pampering their troops. Troops should get salaries, not wages, so that when extra work has to be done, the commanders don't have to reconcile overtime with the budget. Also, latrine and KP are supposed to be a punishment used to enforce discipline and not countered with extra pay. If you're in the U.S. military, you're not there for a f*cking paycheck, you're there to defend your country. If you f*ck up, but not bad enough for a formal charges, you get KP and thank your C.O. for not giving you midnight guard duty int he middle of winter. You get paid extra for hazardous jobs, such as combat and weapons handling and disarmament, but not for 'unsavory' jobs. This makes our troops a bunch of gung-ho, dedicated, no nonsense, tough as nails WARRIORS. Unionization helps some oppressed grunt workers fight the system to get better benefits, but in the modern world, it typically makes people whiney, and the military is the last place you need a bloody union ensuring that work conditions are enjoyable to everyone. Besides, the biggest power a union has is to order a strike. When the military strikes, it's supposed to be called "desertion" and punishable by penalties up to and including death during war time.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by Hobbit:
Also, latrine and KP are supposed to be a punishment used to enforce discipline and not countered with extra pay.

How thoughtful of the US Army core.
I would love to be disciplined by a higher level grunt by being forced to scrub the toilet. That way, I will respect the man who gave me the order to do so, indefinately.
"SUCK MY BALLS, private!"
"yes, sir! - suckle"
"Do you like that private?"
"I. ."
"Did I tell you to stop sucking? Swallow, b*tch!"
"-suckle- - - suckle - - - swallow"
"get back in line, you worthless piece of sh*t! That was the worst blowjob I've had from a private in years! Nothing but fags and queers nowadays, are you a fag or a queer private?"

Yep.
Respect. Goes a long way.

 

[Annie]

How thoughtful of the US Army core.
I would love to be disciplined by a higher level grunt by being forced to scrub the toilet. That way, I will respect the man who gave me the order to do so, indefinately.
"SUCK MY BALLS, private!"
"yes, sir! - suckle"
"Do you like that private?"
"I. ."
"Did I tell you to stop sucking? Swallow, b*tch!"
"-suckle- - - suckle - - - swallow"
"get back in line, you worthless piece of sh*t! That was the worst blowjob I've had from a private in years! Nothing but fags and queers nowadays, are you a fag or a queer private?"

Yep.
Respect. Goes a long way.

I don't think that is exactly how it all works, but perhaps that is why we depend on the Netherlands for our security?

 

[pegwinn]

I once mentioned a union as a very young private, jokingly, and got the snot knocked out of me for it. Let the netherlands have thier union. Didn't they raise thier terror alert status from "don't fight" to "appease"? Or was that the french? No, I'm sorry, the french are elevated from "run and hide" to "surrender".

Unions, sheesh.

 

[CSM]

How thoughtful of the US Army core.
I would love to be disciplined by a higher level grunt by being forced to scrub the toilet. That way, I will respect the man who gave me the order to do so, indefinately.
"SUCK MY BALLS, private!"
"yes, sir! - suckle"
"Do you like that private?"
"I. ."
"Did I tell you to stop sucking? Swallow, b*tch!"
"-suckle- - - suckle - - - swallow"
"get back in line, you worthless piece of sh*t! That was the worst blowjob I've had from a private in years! Nothing but fags and queers nowadays, are you a fag or a queer private?"

Yep.
Respect. Goes a long way.

You obviously have NO idea what the hell you are talking about. I am personally offended by your extreme portrayal. I thought you were far better than that.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by CSM:
You obviously have NO idea what the hell you are talking about. I am personally offended by your extreme portrayal. I thought you were far better than that.

I can understand your resentment to my previous post, I'm sorry if I have truly offended you; that was not my intention.

I got offended myself however, by Hobbit's statements regarding the military affairs of my country, and nosarcasms replies on top of that.

Originally posted by nosarcasm:
No wonder they run from the Serbs. Worthless army.
Originally posted by Hobbit:
I'm making fun of the Netherlands for pampering their troops.

nosarcasm obviously has no clue what he is talking about, other than that it involved the Serbs and a Dutchbat regiment. Maybe he would get another view of the situation if he realizes the Dutchbat were ill-equipped (regular event in occupying armies apparently) and lacked personnel. A thousand of them were tasked with protecting a Muslim city from possible Serb terrorist groups. However, instead of small groups, an army of over 10,000 Serbs, equipped with tanks and whatnot, demanded from them to step aside.
They could not do anything but obey at that time.
Outnumbered and outgunned, they left - the rest is well known.

So up yours mr. "ich habe es nicht gewusst".

As for Hobbit's remarks, he was merely laughing at the idea that Dutch soldiers are treated more humanely than American army grunts. I must say that all I know from the American army is from mainly movies, such as the movie: "Full Metal Jacket", where a real drill sergeant was asked to just be himself and train the actors. That it still may be a little different in reality would not surprise me.

I was sarcastically using vile language to express my view of the American army - to point out the uselessness of the topic up to that point. Not that all responses have been useless, but the severely provoking ones were.
To me it seems that it was merely started to get me angry - well, Hobbit and nosarcasm, you both did. Congratulations.

 

[CSM]

I can understand your resentment to my previous post, I'm sorry if I have truly offended you; that was not my intention.

I got offended myself however, by Hobbit's statements regarding the military affairs of my country, and nosarcasms replies on top of that.


nosarcasm obviously has no clue what he is talking about, other than that it involved the Serbs and a Dutchbat regiment. Maybe he would get another view of the situation if he realizes the Dutchbat were ill-equipped (regular event in occupying armies apparently) and lacked personnel. A thousand of them were tasked with protecting a Muslim city from possible Serb terrorist groups. However, instead of small groups, an army of over 10,000 Serbs, equipped with tanks and whatnot, demanded from them to step aside.
They could not do anything but obey at that time.
Outnumbered and outgunned, they left - the rest is well known.

So up yours mr. "ich habe es nicht gewusst".

As for Hobbit's remarks, he was merely laughing at the idea that Dutch soldiers are treated more humanely than American army grunts. I must say that all I know from the American army is from mainly movies, such as the movie: "Full Metal Jacket", where a real drill sergeant was asked to just be himself and train the actors. That it still may be a little different in reality would not surprise me.

I was sarcastically using vile language to express my view of the American army - to point out the uselessness of the topic up to that point. Not that all responses have been useless, but the severely provoking ones were.
To me it seems that it was merely started to get me angry - well, Hobbit and nosarcasm, you both did. Congratulations.

Your explanation of the Dutch withdrawal in the face of the Srbian force is accurate.

I would disagree that Dutch soldiers are treated any more humanely than anyone else. As for judging military living in the US forces by watching movies, i would submit that movies are NOT reality.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by CSM:
I would disagree that Dutch soldiers are treated any more humanely than anyone else. As for judging military living in the US forces by watching movies, i would submit that movies are NOT reality.

Agreed, Dutch soldiers are not treated more humanely than others in general.
Differences in approach to training do not necessarily mean one is better than the other; however, I would prefer the method my country uses.
But that's just how I personally feel about it.

Actually, I have no idea how other nation's armies treat their soldiers. So maybe some countries actually have a better system than the Netherlands. Funny thing is, it seems very hard to appreciate and copy some parts of the system that serves as the foundation of other countries. Even if they are better.
I don't know if anyone has ever compared these things.

Movies aren't reality, but then I did hear that the drill sergeant used in Full Metal Jacket was the real thing. That he was hired to show the actor who was cast to play the drill sergeant how to do it, but that he was so good, that the director asked him to do the job.
So, are drill sergeants anywhere remotely like that guy?
Or is it a total disconnect from reality?

 

[CSM]

Agreed, Dutch soldiers are not treated more humanely than others in general.
Differences in approach to training do not necessarily mean one is better than the other; however, I would prefer the method my country uses.
But that's just how I personally feel about it.

Actually, I have no idea how other nation's armies treat their soldiers. So maybe some countries actually have a better system than the Netherlands. Funny thing is, it seems very hard to appreciate and copy some parts of the system that serves as the foundation of other countries. Even if they are better.
I don't know if anyone has ever compared these things.

Movies aren't reality, but then I did hear that the drill sergeant used in Full Metal Jacket was the real thing. That he was hired to show the actor who was cast to play the drill sergeant how to do it, but that he was so good, that the director asked him to do the job.
So, are drill sergeants anywhere remotely like that guy?
Or is it a total disconnect from reality?

Just like anything else, some drill sergeants are better than others. In the US Army, there are a variety of styles that a DI (drill instructor) adopts and utilizes to train troops. I find that those styles change over time and as the circumstances dictate. I would have to assume that the DI used int the film was being himself and using a style that he found effective at the time.

As for adopting the system of another country's military, that goes on all the time. some historical examples are the French/Prussian styles for the US military early on. Many nations learned tank warfare from the Germans. Combined arms operations were born in the concept of blitzkrieg. You are essentially correct though in that adopting such changes is a slow and often expensive process.

 

[Harmageddon]

To CSM: thanks for your explanations.

By the way: you may have noticed that the drill sergeant in Full Metal Jacket served as the inspiration for my harsh reply. I just got carried away pretending to be one.

 

[CSM]

To CSM: thanks for your explanations.

By the way: you may have noticed that the drill sergeant in Full Metal Jacket served as the inspiration for my harsh reply. I just got carried away pretending to be one.

You made me chuckle (in good way). It is easy to pretend to be anything...living your life that way is somethong else altogether. I like to pretend I am an artist, but I sure as heck couldn't live that way!

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by CSM:
You made me chuckle (in good way). It is easy to pretend to be anything...living your life that way is somethong else altogether. I like to pretend I am an artist, but I sure as heck couldn't live that way!

Agreed

 

[theHawk]

You made me chuckle (in good way). It is easy to pretend to be anything...living your life that way is somethong else altogether. I like to pretend I am an artist, but I sure as heck couldn't live that way!

Definately true. Nobody can really understand what its like to be in the military unless they've done it. My family are all mostly well educated people (and liberal leaning I'm afraid) yet they have very little understand how things work in the military or in the government in general.

 

[Hobbit]

Ok, did some thinking and formulating and thought I'd give harm a definitive answer on what I find wrong with the unionization of a military.

The military, during a time of war, has the toughest, most grueling job on the face of the planet. Very few other occupations involve risk of life and pushing one's self beyond your percieved limits simply by nature. That being said, the U.S. military tries to prepare its soldiers for these conditions. In basic training, the soldiers are broken down both physically and mentally. Their limits are pushed and surpassed. As they are forced to do and endure more than they think they are capable of, those limits get higher and higher. Then, when faced with the real thing, the soldier pushing his body to its limits comes as second nature.

Second, a military needs discipline. Very few things take precedence over the direct orders of a superior officer. Another part of basic training is to teach recruits that they are to follow their orders to the exclusion of anything else unless those orders go against the rules or laws of that army. That being said, disobeying those orders carries an immediate and fairly harsh punishment of taking on an undesirable duty.

That being said, unions tend to eliminate these two things from the equation. Unions allow the workers to lash back agains the administration, thus vastly undermining the authority an officer is supposed to command. With extra pay given to those with undesirable duties, it no longer serves as a disciplinary tool. Unions also tend to butt their heads into the business of the unionized and ensure that working conditions are pleasant for all of the workers. This keeps the officers from hardening the troops prior to battle, leading to an increased chance of a breakdown of morale during battle. From the perspective of someone who has endured the most grueling basic training regimin in a country known for tough military training, having a unionized military seems...wussy.