America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/op

[MuadDib]

You don't seem to understand what the The Federalist was. It was a collection of essays written to argue in favor of the adoption of the Constitution. Most of them were written by Madison, who wrote most of the Constitution.

As for Hamilton, he was the guy who favored a President for life and promoted heavy taxation and government subsidies. Aaron Burr could have saved us a lot of trouble if he'd shot Hamilton years earlier.

Hamilton turned out to be quite a liar.

He wrote what he thought people wanted to hear and then turned around and did it differently.

The election of 1800 shows you just how much people wanted a strong central government NOT.

Perhaps not so much a liar as a politician?

He was more of a liar than a politician. He was a lawyer. The only public offices he held were Continental Congress and Secretary of the Treasury. He had to resign from the cabinet when it was exposed that he had an affair with Maria Reynolds and her husband had been blackmailing him.

 

[Avatar4321]

You don't even know your own religious scriptures?

Benjamin was telling the people the Word of God to them, that they were to take care of their neighbors. Benjamin was reinforcing that word as their Priest and Leader. This was not voluntary.

Try this nonsense with your priesthood file leadership, Avatar, and tell us what they say.

And give us something from lds.org that supports your silliness.

That you would put your political silliness over your religious scripture is amazing.

King Benjamin made clear he was the one telling the people what to do, as the political and priestly leader of the people.

We the People through our elected representatives tell you, me, and all citizens what are duties are to the lesser blessed among us.

That is the way it is.

Actually, no. King Benjamin spoke to the people the Word of God directed to Him by an Angel of the Lord. And then they people voluntarily gave themselves to God and did His will without the threat of government force.

Our representatives, represent us, not God. They speak to us their own words or the words of their special interests, not God's. They use force, they dont teach people to do the duties that God gave them, they tell them to trust the government in everything. And they use the threat of violence to get their way.

These are two totally different concepts. See we have more duties than just to take care of one another. We also have the duty to work for a living. We have the duty to support ourselves in every way possible. We have the duty to follow God. The government teaches us none of these things. Atleast not as it's currently constituted. They teach us to rely on the flesh. But the Word of the Lord teaches us not to rely on flesh, but on the Spirit.

The Lord wants people to willingly follow Him and serve others. The means are as important, if not more so, than the ends. The Government doesnt see it that way.

I am pretty sure they would agree with me that we dont use violence, force, or government to take from people and give to others including ourselves.

In fact, the scriptures warn against doing just that:

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. (D&C 121:39)

In fact, they tell us precisely that we aren't supposed to be using force or the government, Instead that:

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death. (D&C 121:41-44)

And more specifically on the role of government:

We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul. (D&C 134:4)

As I said, King Benjamin taught people the Words the Lord told Him to teach them. But he didnt use the authority of government to force them to obey. In fact, quite the opposite. he invited them to voice their own opinion on the matter. And they voluntarily made covfenants with God to minister to one another's needs.

Yet, for some reason you seem to think he was advocating the government robbing people to give to others? How? Nothing in the sermon even implies that he was telling them that government should rob people and give to the poor. He was teaching individuals to give to the poor. He was teaching individuals to be accountable to God and step up to their God given duties and privileges. He was inviting people to be more Christ like.

In fact, the Book of Mormon clearly condemns Robbers, especially those that infultrate government. In speaking of the Gadianton Robbers, Mormon commented:

And behold, in the end of this book ye shall see that this Gadianton did prove the overthrow, yea, almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi.

Behold I do not mean the end of the book of Helaman, but I mean the end of the book of Nephi, from which I have taken all the account which I have written. (Helaman 2:13-14)

Robbers infultrated the governments, caused schisms between the people and in the end caused mass genocide of a people. That's the can of worms you open up when you empower government to rob people.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Tell that to Nephi, or to those who fought the Gadianton robbers, or to those who tortured and put the evil man, Korihor, to death.

Your scriptures talk about rules of worship, not governance. Taxation, ipso facto, as I told Cleon Skousen so many years ago, is not robbery. The government can do as We the People want it to do. Government is not limited only to what one man can do.

Yes, we are seeing bands of Gadianton robbers today, secret combinations from the far right and from the libertarians, trying to take over the government. They will fail, as always. As did Cleon, as does the JBS, as does Glenn Beck even today.

You don't even know your own religious scriptures? Benjamin was telling the people the Word of God to them, that they were to take care of their neighbors. Benjamin was reinforcing that word as their Priest and Leader. This was not voluntary. Try this nonsense with your priesthood file leadership, Avatar, and tell us what they say. And give us something from lds.org that supports your silliness. That you would put your political silliness over your religious scripture is amazing.

Actually, no. King Benjamin spoke to the people the Word of God directed to Him by an Angel of the Lord. And then they people voluntarily gave themselves to God and did His will without the threat of government force.

Our representatives, represent us, not God. They speak to us their own words or the words of their special interests, not God's. They use force, they dont teach people to do the duties that God gave them, they tell them to trust the government in everything. And they use the threat of violence to get their way.

These are two totally different concepts. See we have more duties than just to take care of one another. We also have the duty to work for a living. We have the duty to support ourselves in every way possible. We have the duty to follow God. The government teaches us none of these things. Atleast not as it's currently constituted. They teach us to rely on the flesh. But the Word of the Lord teaches us not to rely on flesh, but on the Spirit.

The Lord wants people to willingly follow Him and serve others. The means are as important, if not more so, than the ends. The Government doesnt see it that way.

I am pretty sure they would agree with me that we dont use violence, force, or government to take from people and give to others including ourselves.

In fact, the scriptures warn against doing just that:



In fact, they tell us precisely that we aren't supposed to be using force or the government, Instead that:



And more specifically on the role of government:

We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul. (D&C 134:4)

Avatar, one is talking about the rules of worship, Avatar, we are talking about governance of polity. Yes, governments use force.

As I said, King Benjamin taught people the Words the Lord told Him to teach them. But he didnt use the authority of government to force them to obey. In fact, quite the opposite. he invited them to voice their own opinion on the matter. And they voluntarily made covfenants with God to minister to one another's needs. [unfounded opinion: prove it; you can't]

Yet, for some reason you seem to think he was advocating the government robbing people to give to others? How? Nothing in the sermon even implies that he was telling them that government should rob people and give to the poor. He was teaching individuals to give to the poor. He was teaching individuals to be accountable to God and step up to their God given duties and privileges. He was inviting people to be more Christ like.

prove it; you can't and you are silly to suggest that a church known for tithing did not enforce tithing as in the days of the Book of Mormon or in the days of Brigaham

In fact, the Book of Mormon clearly condemns Robbers, especially those that infultrate government. In speaking of the Gadianton Robbers, Mormon commented:

And behold, in the end of this book ye shall see that this Gadianton did prove the overthrow, yea, almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi. Behold I do not mean the end of the book of Helaman, but I mean the end of the book of Nephi, from which I have taken all the account which I have written. (Helaman 2:13-14)

Robbers infultrated the governments, caused schisms between the people and in the end caused mass genocide of a people. That's the can of worms you open up when you empower government to rob people.

 

[Listening]

You don't even know your own religious scriptures?

Benjamin was telling the people the Word of God to them, that they were to take care of their neighbors. Benjamin was reinforcing that word as their Priest and Leader. This was not voluntary.

Try this nonsense with your priesthood file leadership, Avatar, and tell us what they say.

And give us something from lds.org that supports your silliness.

That you would put your political silliness over your religious scripture is amazing.

They said you have it all wrong.

There is no reference to nor is there any hint of compulsion.....all of which would be totally inconsistent with doctrine.

And BTW: you never did answer......Why doesn't Utah have and why has it never had a massive social program base. The state was pretty much run the church for a long long time and there are still plenty of LDS legislators in the house and senate.

Next.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, they said no such thing, Listening.

They told you that if you are listening to JBS or Beck or other extremist libertarian material, if you are placing secular politics above your religious duties, you are on the first steps of the road to apostasy.

Yes, those covenants in Mosiah 4 were coerced by King Benjamin's sermon, a form of marching orders from the priest king of the people. The power of the sermon struck its truth in their hearts and they complied.

The social progressivism of the 19th century in Utah under the church's United Order and the church cooperatives, the pressure to use bishop courts instead of government courts, are common knowledge to those who readily understand and are literate in Mormon/western history and culture. For instance, did you know that 'common consent' was used in Utah territorial legislatures until 1867 or 1868, when for the first-time Brigham Young directed-legislation for this first time was not unanimously passed in both houses?

Said me your email and I will send you a reading list of LDS temple-going authors whose work easily supports all of this.

Sister, you are merely mislead and underread..

You don't even know your own religious scriptures?

Benjamin was telling the people the Word of God to them, that they were to take care of their neighbors. Benjamin was reinforcing that word as their Priest and Leader. This was not voluntary.

Try this nonsense with your priesthood file leadership, Avatar, and tell us what they say.

And give us something from lds.org that supports your silliness.

That you would put your political silliness over your religious scripture is amazing.

They said you have it all wrong.

There is no reference to nor is there any hint of compulsion.....all of which would be totally inconsistent with doctrine.

And BTW: you never did answer......Why doesn't Utah have and why has it never had a massive social program base. The state was pretty much run the church for a long long time and there are still plenty of LDS legislators in the house and senate.

Next.

 

[Listening]

No, they said no such thing, Listening.

They told you that if you are listening to JBS or Beck or other extremist libertarian material, if you are placing secular politics above your religious duties, you are on the first steps of the road to apostasy.

Yes, those covenants in Mosiah 4 were coerced by King Benjamin's sermon, a form of marching orders from the priest king of the people. The power of the sermon struck its truth in their hearts and they complied.

The social progressivism of the 19th century in Utah under the church's United Order and the church cooperatives, the pressure to use bishop courts instead of government courts, are common knowledge to those who readily understand and are literate in Mormon/western history and culture. For instance, did you know that 'common consent' was used in Utah territorial legislatures until 1867 or 1868, when for the first-time Brigham Young directed-legislation for this first time was not unanimously passed in both houses?

Said me your email and I will send you a reading list of LDS temple-going authors whose work easily supports all of this.

Sister, you are merely mislead and underread..

You don't even know your own religious scriptures?

Benjamin was telling the people the Word of God to them, that they were to take care of their neighbors. Benjamin was reinforcing that word as their Priest and Leader. This was not voluntary.

Try this nonsense with your priesthood file leadership, Avatar, and tell us what they say.

And give us something from lds.org that supports your silliness.

That you would put your political silliness over your religious scripture is amazing.

They said you have it all wrong.

There is no reference to nor is there any hint of compulsion.....all of which would be totally inconsistent with doctrine.

And BTW: you never did answer......Why doesn't Utah have and why has it never had a massive social program base. The state was pretty much run the church for a long long time and there are still plenty of LDS legislators in the house and senate.

Next.

Sorry Jackey.....but I'll stay with my leaders.

Don't like what they said....don't believe it.

Does not bother me.

They also asked who was telling me this. I told them it was a non-member who claims to be "well read".

All I got was head shaking.

Better luck next time.

And so now you are saying the church used bishops courts instead of pushing the idea of legal statutes to "enforce" goodness. You just shot yourself in the foot.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sorry, Listening, but your leaders told you no such thing.

You know it and I know it.

All you are getting here is a shaking of heads at your transparent foolishness.

Now run along.

 

[Listening]

Sorry, Listening, but your leaders told you no such thing.

You know it and I know it.

All you are getting here is a shaking of heads at your transparent foolishness.

Now run along.

Nope Jackey.....I have had lengthy discussions on this topic with leaders and other members alike. Before you and since you.

I even brought up your premise in a class the other day and found that almost everyone didn't see it your way.

What is happening here is that you are showing your arrogance and narrowmindedness.

Don't like it, I guess you can disbelieve it. But you asked me to do it and I did. You just don't like what happened.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I really doubt you have had lenghy discussions as you describe them with LDS leaders as Bishops, Stake Presidents, or above.

You are suggesting that your Gospel Doctrine class is somehow libertarian in take, and I know the many LDS friends I have do not think politically like you.

Your problem is that you can't stand being isolated as extremist, religiously and politically, that you are. I don't care if you like it. All your disagreement does not make you right. And eventual apostasy or repentance will be your only two options.

Addendum: However, disease breeds best in a perverted culture, and my friends do tell me that JBS, Beckian, and libertarian groups do infect parts of Utah Mormonism, particularly in Utah County, known as "Happy Valley", so perhaps your GD class is that way. Perhaps.

 

[GuyPinestra]

King Benjamin made clear he was the one telling the people what to do, as the political and priestly leader of the people.

We the People through our elected representatives tell you, me, and all citizens what are duties are to the lesser blessed among us.

That is the way it is.

No, God tells me through His Spirit what my duties are to those 'lesser blessed'.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Step off, Guy. You live in a secular constitutional republic. You will do as We the People tell you, or you will suffer the consequences of your silliness.

King Benjamin made clear he was the one telling the people what to do, as the political and priestly leader of the people.

We the People through our elected representatives tell you, me, and all citizens what are duties are to the lesser blessed among us.

That is the way it is.

No, God tells me through His Spirit what my duties are to those 'lesser blessed'.

 

[GuyPinestra]

Step off, Guy. You live in a secular constitutional republic. You will do as We the People tell you, or you will suffer the consequences of your silliness.

King Benjamin made clear he was the one telling the people what to do, as the political and priestly leader of the people.

We the People through our elected representatives tell you, me, and all citizens what are duties are to the lesser blessed among us.

That is the way it is.

No, God tells me through His Spirit what my duties are to those 'lesser blessed'.

You will politely kneel down and kiss my ass....

 

[Listening]

I really doubt you have had lenghy discussions as you describe them with LDS leaders as Bishops, Stake Presidents, or above.

You are suggesting that your Gospel Doctrine class is somehow libertarian in take, and I know the many LDS friends I have do not think politically like you.

Your problem is that you can't stand being isolated as extremist, religiously and politically, that you are. I don't care if you like it. All your disagreement does not make you right. And eventual apostasy or repentance will be your only two options.

Addendum: However, disease breeds best in a perverted culture, and my friends do tell me that JBS, Beckian, and libertarian groups do infect parts of Utah Mormonism, particularly in Utah County, known as "Happy Valley", so perhaps your GD class is that way. Perhaps.

Who cares what you doubt ?

It wasn't Gospel Doctrine class. The nature of the discussion really started with your premise that we somehow should be putting "doing good works" into statute...which nobody agreed with. However, there is also no doubt that people in the class feel a responsbility to their fellowman. How they chose to exercise those responsibilities differs from person to person and the extent to which they feel it also differs.

I have never watched Glenn Beck. I have listened to him on the radio when I come home from the airport late at night. And that would be the MCI (as in Kansas City....where I live). I can only assume that JBS means John Birch Society....something I have never had contact with.

I think it best to suggest that if you think you've got it figured out....you start your own church. I certainly won't be joining it. But if you can convince anyone that you know what you are talking about.....maybe you can make a go of it.

Good Luck.

 

[Listening]

Step off, Guy. You live in a secular constitutional republic. You will do as We the People tell you, or you will suffer the consequences of your silliness.

No, God tells me through His Spirit what my duties are to those 'lesser blessed'.

You will politely kneel down and kiss my ass....

I'd be worried about getting an infection.

It is so strange that somehow the left thinks that we will let people starve in the streets. I live in a pretty red state. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has starved to death around here In the 20 years I have been present.

I have always believed that if someone starves to death in a community, it is the fault of the community, not the government.....if people want to care for people through their governments.....great....that is why we have counties and 50 states.

Why we are required to do it at the federal level has never been sufficiently explained to me.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The perversion is your belief that government can't tax on behalf of We the People and that you are bound by it. You both are bound by the social compact, the Constitution, the decisions of the lege and SCOTUS, and you violate all of that at your own peril. Your small, very small minority, do not rule.

Step off, Guy. You live in a secular constitutional republic. You will do as We the People tell you, or you will suffer the consequences of your silliness.

You will politely kneel down and kiss my ass....

I'd be worried about getting an infection.

It is so strange that somehow the left thinks that we will let people starve in the streets. I live in a pretty red state. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has starved to death around here In the 20 years I have been present.

I have always believed that if someone starves to death in a community, it is the fault of the community, not the government.....if people want to care for people through their governments.....great....that is why we have counties and 50 states.

Why we are required to do it at the federal level has never been sufficiently explained to me.

 

[Katzndogz]

The "poor" are obese because they are starving to death.

 

[rdean]

Right wingers think they're the "makers". Hilarious. If that were true, the Federal government wouldn't have to spend so much on Red States so they don't go under.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Break the laws of the nation, bub, and you will be doing exactly that in federal prison to your masters.

Step off, Guy. You live in a secular constitutional republic. You will do as We the People tell you, or you will suffer the consequences of your silliness.

No, God tells me through His Spirit what my duties are to those 'lesser blessed'.

You will politely kneel down and kiss my ass....

 

[GuyPinestra]

Break the laws of the nation, bub, and you will be doing exactly that in federal prison to your masters.

Step off, Guy. You live in a secular constitutional republic. You will do as We the People tell you, or you will suffer the consequences of your silliness.

You will politely kneel down and kiss my ass....

You think your Big Brother pronouncements scare me, Jake? Really?

 

[Mr.Nick]

America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

Those were Abe Lincoln’s words in his first inaugural in 1861, as America was running headlong into civil war. Now we’re a house divided again and another civil war is coming, with the 2012 election as its Gettysburg.

Call it America’s coming civil war between the Makers and the Takers.

On one side are those who create wealth, America’s private sector–the very ones targeted by President Obama’s tax hikes announced Monday.

On the other are the public employee unions; left-leaning intelligentsia who see the growth of government as index of progress; and the millions of Americans now dependent on government through a growing network of government transfer payments, from Medicaid and Social Security to college loans and corporate bailouts and handouts (think GM and Solyndra).

Over the past century America’s private sector has been the source of productivity, innovation, creativity, and growth–and gave us the iPhone and iPad. The public sector has been the engine of entitlement, stagnation, and decline -- and gave us Detroit and the South Bronx.

Read more: America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

******************

I somehow think that the left believes there is legitimacy to the growing number of people on government programs.

Just like the third and fourth generation welfare folks I knew in CA who got together right after the checks showed up and celebrated with a bag of weed.

That's what the left wants - everyone either dependent on government for basic necessities or working a union job...

That was their plan all alone and no one ever saw it except a few (myself included). Most people told me to put my tinfoil hat on because I was a "crazy racist" yeah? well I was right all along....

They want communism and they got it with Obamacare - that program set precedent for the government to control every aspect of your lives -- and these progressive communist fascists will do just that...... If Obama got 4 more years it would be the end of the United States... If Obama gets 4 more years there WILL be a civil war.... Obama has already set the dominoes up for a communist USA, now all he has to do is knock them over....