Porter Rockwell
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You complete and total ignoramus. A copy and paste is not me quoting anyone. Don't screw with me ever again. You're too stupid to be in any conversation.
America Founded as a Christian Nation
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You complete and total ignoramus. A copy and paste is not me quoting anyone. Don't screw with me ever again. You're too stupid to be in any conversation.
Porter Rockwell
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ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL
I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...
NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience
NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE
This thread is now 1025 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 187 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018
In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.
By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019
I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW a total of 90 times personally. That is a total of 414 posts that have revolved around this one poster.
One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:
1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.
I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:
http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf
If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.
2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie
3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life
4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)
If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the ******* quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass
Porter Rockwell
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AN ADDENDUM TO NOTFOOLEDBYW if you are following that whizzing contest
Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)
NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.
NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.
NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:
"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:
http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf
NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb **** not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.
And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.
Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)
NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.
NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.
NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:
"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:
http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf
NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb **** not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.
And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.
Porter Rockwell
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If someone is too stupid to understand that a copy and paste is not the same as quoting someone, it makes you wonder how much IQ we're dealing with in discussing this with the thread troll.
Insofar as the quote being "exact," we may not have all the facts still. The old English is not the exact same as we have today so you you can have words spelled differently, punctuation differences, etc. So, for me, I do not think the troll has a good enough case to justify the time he's spent trying to condemn me - ESPECIALLY when I went back and gave the title and other info from the book it was taken. The man is foolish to think I can independently verify every single statement that I quote. If the information is wrong, you can point it out and move on.
Ironically, it would not change the fact that Jefferson, himself, said he was a Christian - qualifiers or not. So, Jefferson may not have been mainstream, he was only ONE MAN. He wasn't God. He was a man conflicted and his religious views changing and evolving all the way up to his death.
Porter Rockwell
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FWIW - "The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effective means of limiting Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush
I was amazed by this quote given the twists and turns this thread has taken. Here is why. On the same site that gives this quote, it has this to say about Rush:
"The Founding Father of the United States, Benjamin Rush was an illustrious civic leader from Philadelphia, where he was an educator, physician, founder of Dickinson College, politician, humanitarian, and a social reformer. He patronized the Continental Congress and initialized the Declaration of Independence. He served the Continental Army as its surgeon and also became a professor of medical theory, clinical practice and chemistry at the University of Pennsylvania. He was an ardent supporter of American Revolution and an important part of the American Enlightenment. He played a pivotal role in a number of reforms especially in the areas of education and medicine."
Top Benjamin Rush Quotes
The way it's been presented to me thus far, is that if someone were suddenly "enlightened," they could not be a Christian. Now, there is what ONE Christian contributed.
America was founded as a Christian nation. So, what does that mean? IF we move past the trolling, I'd like to answer that since we were prevented from exploring that issue.
I was amazed by this quote given the twists and turns this thread has taken. Here is why. On the same site that gives this quote, it has this to say about Rush:
"The Founding Father of the United States, Benjamin Rush was an illustrious civic leader from Philadelphia, where he was an educator, physician, founder of Dickinson College, politician, humanitarian, and a social reformer. He patronized the Continental Congress and initialized the Declaration of Independence. He served the Continental Army as its surgeon and also became a professor of medical theory, clinical practice and chemistry at the University of Pennsylvania. He was an ardent supporter of American Revolution and an important part of the American Enlightenment. He played a pivotal role in a number of reforms especially in the areas of education and medicine."
Top Benjamin Rush Quotes
The way it's been presented to me thus far, is that if someone were suddenly "enlightened," they could not be a Christian. Now, there is what ONE Christian contributed.
America was founded as a Christian nation. So, what does that mean? IF we move past the trolling, I'd like to answer that since we were prevented from exploring that issue.
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Porter Rockwell
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"Richard Henry Lee (January 20, 1732 – June 19, 1794) was an American statesman from Virginia best known for the motion in the Second Continental Congress calling for the colonies’ independence from Great Britain. He was a signatory to the Articles of Confederation and his famous resolution of June 1776 led to the United States Declaration of Independence, which Lee signed."
Richard Henry Lee
"...Though he originally opposed the Constitution, he helped push through the Bill of Rights."
https://www.biography.com/political-figure/richard-henry-lee
"Richard Henry Lee is regarded as one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America. He was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. He was a delegate from Virginia. Richard Henry Lee was also a Senator in the First U.S. Federal Congress (1789-1791).
Richard Henry Lee was an Anglican and a devout Christian.
From: B. J. Lossing, Signers of the Declaration of Independence, George F. Cooledge & Brother: New York (1848) [reprinted in Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, WallBuilder Press: Aledo, Texas (1995)], page 173"
Richard Henry Lee, Signer of Declaration of Independence
"No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its Liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state...such area well-regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them"
To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...
Another contribution by a Christian to the founding of America
Richard Henry Lee
"...Though he originally opposed the Constitution, he helped push through the Bill of Rights."
https://www.biography.com/political-figure/richard-henry-lee
"Richard Henry Lee is regarded as one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America. He was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. He was a delegate from Virginia. Richard Henry Lee was also a Senator in the First U.S. Federal Congress (1789-1791).
Richard Henry Lee was an Anglican and a devout Christian.
From: B. J. Lossing, Signers of the Declaration of Independence, George F. Cooledge & Brother: New York (1848) [reprinted in Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, WallBuilder Press: Aledo, Texas (1995)], page 173"
Richard Henry Lee, Signer of Declaration of Independence
"No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its Liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state...such area well-regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them"
To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...
Another contribution by a Christian to the founding of America
whutTHEYsay
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#1047 The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
Thomas Jefferson (1984). “Jefferson: Writings”, p.1970, Library of America
All Jefferson’s letters are archived and there is no dispute that what you copied and pasted was doctored by adding the word “Christ” Into a sentence that was so significantly chopped from the full sentence, the writers original intent was totally obliterated.
He was talking about his project of cutting out the corrupt supernatural hocus pocus out is the Bible, The Holy Word of God.
Anyone can accidentally copy a misquote / that is not the issue. Once advised of the misquote, and a check with more authoritative sources, you needed to reevaluate the argument you were making based on the misquote.
You didn't do the right thing, That is not my fault.
Thomas Jefferson (1984). “Jefferson: Writings”, p.1970, Library of America
All Jefferson’s letters are archived and there is no dispute that what you copied and pasted was doctored by adding the word “Christ” Into a sentence that was so significantly chopped from the full sentence, the writers original intent was totally obliterated.
He was talking about his project of cutting out the corrupt supernatural hocus pocus out is the Bible, The Holy Word of God.
Anyone can accidentally copy a misquote / that is not the issue. Once advised of the misquote, and a check with more authoritative sources, you needed to reevaluate the argument you were making based on the misquote.
You didn't do the right thing, That is not my fault.
Freedom From Religion Foundation has published a book, The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American. Either you get clued up to protect yourself, or you don't. Neither Romney nor the protection-racket mafia he represents are doing that well in duping the people:
'The Washington Post reported in December that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has amassed about $100 billion that is supposed to be used for charitable purposes. A former investment manager for the church made the allegations in a whistleblower complaint to the Internal Revenue Service in November.
The confidential document accuses church leaders of misleading members and possibly breaching federal tax rules by hoarding donations instead of using them for charitable works. The Post reports that the complaint was filed by David Nielson, a MOrmon who worked recently as a senior portfolio manager at the church's investment division, Ensign Peak Advisors, which is based near the church's headquarters in Salt Lake City.
Nonprofit organizations, including religious groups and FFRF, are exempted in the United States from paying taxes on their income. Ensign is registered as a supporting organization of the LDS Church, which permits it to operate as a nonprofit. Nielsen urged the IRS to remove the church's tax-exempt status and alleges that Ensign could owe billions in taxes. (Rewards to whistleblowers are offered from the IRS if it recoups any money.)
According to the Post story, the Mormon church collects about $7 billion annually in contributions from members. About $6 billion of that is used to cover operating costs and the remaining $1 billion is transferred to Ensign, which invests it to generate returns. The complaint estimates the portfolio has grown from $12 billion in 1997 to about $100 billion. Ensign has not directly funded any religious, educational, or charitable activities in 22 years, the complaint also stated.
"If you have a charity that simply amasses a war chest year after year and does not spend any money for charity purposes, that does not meet the requirements ot tax law," said Philip Hackney, a former IRS official who teaches tax law at the University of Pittsburgh and was hired by the Post to analyze the whistleblower documents.'
(LDS Church Misled Members on $100 Billion Tax-Exempt Fund, Freethought Today, Jan-Feb 2020)
'The Washington Post reported in December that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has amassed about $100 billion that is supposed to be used for charitable purposes. A former investment manager for the church made the allegations in a whistleblower complaint to the Internal Revenue Service in November.
The confidential document accuses church leaders of misleading members and possibly breaching federal tax rules by hoarding donations instead of using them for charitable works. The Post reports that the complaint was filed by David Nielson, a MOrmon who worked recently as a senior portfolio manager at the church's investment division, Ensign Peak Advisors, which is based near the church's headquarters in Salt Lake City.
Nonprofit organizations, including religious groups and FFRF, are exempted in the United States from paying taxes on their income. Ensign is registered as a supporting organization of the LDS Church, which permits it to operate as a nonprofit. Nielsen urged the IRS to remove the church's tax-exempt status and alleges that Ensign could owe billions in taxes. (Rewards to whistleblowers are offered from the IRS if it recoups any money.)
According to the Post story, the Mormon church collects about $7 billion annually in contributions from members. About $6 billion of that is used to cover operating costs and the remaining $1 billion is transferred to Ensign, which invests it to generate returns. The complaint estimates the portfolio has grown from $12 billion in 1997 to about $100 billion. Ensign has not directly funded any religious, educational, or charitable activities in 22 years, the complaint also stated.
"If you have a charity that simply amasses a war chest year after year and does not spend any money for charity purposes, that does not meet the requirements ot tax law," said Philip Hackney, a former IRS official who teaches tax law at the University of Pittsburgh and was hired by the Post to analyze the whistleblower documents.'
(LDS Church Misled Members on $100 Billion Tax-Exempt Fund, Freethought Today, Jan-Feb 2020)
whutTHEYsay
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#1049. I posted this earlier on Post #965. I agree quite strongly with the third partial paragraph.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Constitutional Calvinist | The American Conservative
{This is the best life of Connecticut’s foremost Founding Father ever written. More than that, it demonstrates once and for all that Calvinism played a very significant role in shaping the American Revolution and U.S. Constitution. Henceforth, historians will have to take account of Mark David Hall’s book in all studies of “the creation of the American republic.”
Hall sets out to correct a serious flaw in the historiography. While prominent accounts of the American Revolution’s intellectual underpinnings devote considerable attention to the influence of Lockean, classical republican, Scottish Enlightenment traditions, the influence of Reformed Protestantism—that is, Calvinism—tends to be overlooked. Although the focus is on Sherman’s political thinking, Hall tell us, his book shows that the Reformed tradition was central to the thought of Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Oliver Ellsworth, Jonathan Trumbull, William Paterson, John Witherspoon, and several other prominent Calvinist politicians as well.
As Hall puts it, “I am not arguing that Calvinism was the only influence on Sherman and his colleagues, simply that it was a very important influence that needs to be taken more seriously if we are to appreciate the political theory and actions of many of America’s founders.”}
Then Porter Rockwell writes this:
#1046.
That is stupid. I would never present such a stupid argument to you.
My very first post acknowledges the contribution of Christianity to the founding of our nation.
And again in #860 reply to #198
Jesus had some great moral teachings; none were incompatible with the enlightenment philosophies that greatly influenced the founding of America.
And what did Washington say about the “enlightened and liberal policy, that marked the Washington’s age.
“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
George Washington, Edward Frank Humphrey (1932). “George Washington on religious liberty and mutual understanding: selections from Washington's letters”
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Constitutional Calvinist | The American Conservative
{This is the best life of Connecticut’s foremost Founding Father ever written. More than that, it demonstrates once and for all that Calvinism played a very significant role in shaping the American Revolution and U.S. Constitution. Henceforth, historians will have to take account of Mark David Hall’s book in all studies of “the creation of the American republic.”
Hall sets out to correct a serious flaw in the historiography. While prominent accounts of the American Revolution’s intellectual underpinnings devote considerable attention to the influence of Lockean, classical republican, Scottish Enlightenment traditions, the influence of Reformed Protestantism—that is, Calvinism—tends to be overlooked. Although the focus is on Sherman’s political thinking, Hall tell us, his book shows that the Reformed tradition was central to the thought of Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Oliver Ellsworth, Jonathan Trumbull, William Paterson, John Witherspoon, and several other prominent Calvinist politicians as well.
As Hall puts it, “I am not arguing that Calvinism was the only influence on Sherman and his colleagues, simply that it was a very important influence that needs to be taken more seriously if we are to appreciate the political theory and actions of many of America’s founders.”}
Then Porter Rockwell writes this:
#1046.
That is stupid. I would never present such a stupid argument to you.
My very first post acknowledges the contribution of Christianity to the founding of our nation.
And again in #860 reply to #198
Jesus had some great moral teachings; none were incompatible with the enlightenment philosophies that greatly influenced the founding of America.
And what did Washington say about the “enlightened and liberal policy, that marked the Washington’s age.
“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
George Washington, Edward Frank Humphrey (1932). “George Washington on religious liberty and mutual understanding: selections from Washington's letters”
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BreezeWood
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.
you have a habit of repeating yourself as though over time its content will somehow blossom into something meaningful -
there is no mention of equality in the u s constitution in fact the omission is the reason for most amendments added after its ratification ... and was the namesake for the revolutionary war, people died for.
as stated before alito's "what's left out actually exist" is in itself an admission the bill of rights without equality (14th amendment) was purely a subjective document amenable to whoever at the time was in the majority.
are you denying it was the christian influence that removed equality from the declaration of independence -
America Founded as a Christian Nation - when codifying the nations laws ... if so the christian "founding" has long past been run aground. at your obvious displeasure.
Bezukhov
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You know, I'm thinking that Porter & Co. might be right. America has done some horrible things in its history, proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.
whutTHEYsay
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#1052 reply to #1043.
I will admit that I was taking a poke at Porter Rockwell’s fantasy that starting a thread titled “America was founded as a Christian Nation” was ”DUE TO POPULAR REQUEST “
But the truth is I did not write words that could ever be construed to be taking a swipe at Christianity with the claim that it was bullshit.
There is no popular request, Porter Rockwell’s feelings were very badly hurt.
I a Christian asked, ”There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King, ...... How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one of the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit?”
All can see what I say is true. Too true for Porter Rockwell.
I have posted one answer to my question regarding Jefferson and the dung in the Bible.
Catholic view
Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson
The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson by Donald J. D'Elia
DESCRIPTION In this analysis of Thomas Jefferson, Dr. D 'Elia lays the groundwork for a truly Catholic perception of American history in general, in addition to unveiling an accurate portrait of the man.
and Jefferson’s views on Christianity are of the utmost importance related to the title of this thread.
Due to popular request.......
#78 reply to #1.
I will admit that I was taking a poke at Porter Rockwell’s fantasy that starting a thread titled “America was founded as a Christian Nation” was ”DUE TO POPULAR REQUEST “
But the truth is I did not write words that could ever be construed to be taking a swipe at Christianity with the claim that it was bullshit.
There is no popular request, Porter Rockwell’s feelings were very badly hurt.
I a Christian asked, ”There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King, ...... How many currently immersed and obsessed with Christianity today would have appreciated one of the greatest minds of all the founders declaring that the Christian Bible is full of political dung. Nice word for bullshit?”
All can see what I say is true. Too true for Porter Rockwell.
I have posted one answer to my question regarding Jefferson and the dung in the Bible.
Catholic view
Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson
The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson by Donald J. D'Elia
DESCRIPTION In this analysis of Thomas Jefferson, Dr. D 'Elia lays the groundwork for a truly Catholic perception of American history in general, in addition to unveiling an accurate portrait of the man.
- Yet, Jefferson's false principles in philosophy and religion, which are essentially those of "modern man" in today's consenting-adult society, and his private scurrilities, must be an affront to real Christians. This truth is beyond opinion, despite Jefferson's transparent sincerity. The man who had "sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"47 was himself the victim of the most dangerous tyranny of all: ignorance of the Word of God. For Jefferson could not, and modern Americans cannot, declare themselves independent of God's truth.
and Jefferson’s views on Christianity are of the utmost importance related to the title of this thread.
Due to popular request.......
#78 reply to #1.
Last edited:
Porter Rockwell
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That's funny. I was thinking that since the secularists, atheists, humanists, and theists were claiming every founding father as their own, they might want to man up and answer for those horrible things.
Porter Rockwell
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ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL - YES, I WAS URGED IN ANOTHER THREAD ON USM TO START THIS AS A SEPARATE SUBJECT
I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...
NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience
NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE
This thread is now 1025 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 187 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018
In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.
By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019
I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW a total of 90 times personally. That is a total of 414 posts that have revolved around this one poster.
One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:
1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.
I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:
http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf
If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.
2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie
3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life
4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)
If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the ******* quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass
Bezukhov
Anarcho-Capitalist
I don't claim any of them as my own, truth be told. If you want to claim them, Porter, have at it. They were hypocrites, so worship them in any way you see fit. My contributions to this thread were made to prove that Jesus, and all the other writers of the New Testament, never intended that Christians seize and use earthly political power. Show me a Bible verse where Paul, Peter or anyone else ever said "Now, when you take the reins of government use this as the basis for lording over everyone else". It ain't there. So you can claim that America is a "Christian Nation", to Jesus, it doesn't mean diddly squat.
Porter Rockwell
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AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION Part 6 Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 located at posts # 941, 942, 962, 963 , 964. and 988
I apologize to all who have to wade through mountains of trolling in order for me to be able to get to the point.
America was founded as a Christian nation. But, what does that mean?
In the very first post of this thread, I left a link that nobody clicked on. Regardless of which side of the aisle they stood on, nobody read it. The critics saw the title and jumped on the thread, posting profanities and political propaganda so that the real topic would be obscured and ignored by the intended audience. But we will get to the bottom line.
When our forefathers landed on the shores of the New World, they had a vision for America. The first thing required in the building of anything is to have a vision. What would this new land be like? What would our relationships be like? What would we strive for? How would we fit in? What was the purpose of coming to America? That vision was laid out for everyone in a link in post # 1. Okay, let's give you that link again:
https://www.casa-arts.org/cms/lib/PA01925203/Centricity/Domain/50/A Model of Christian Charity.pdf
Any sermon that is being quoted 300 years after it has been delivered must have some importance. One of the first things I really took note of was early in that sermon when Winthrop said:
"Thirdly, the Law of Nature would give no rules for dealing with enemies, for all are to be considered as friends in the state of innocence, but the Gospel commands love to an enemy. Proof:
If thine enemy hunger, feed him; "Love your enemies... Do good to them that hate you" (Matt. 5:44). This law of the Gospel propounds likewise a difference of seasons and occasions. There is a time when a Christian must sell all and give to the poor, as they did in the Apostles’ times.
There is a time also when Christians (though they give not all yet) must give beyond their ability, as they of Macedonia (2 Cor. 8). Likewise, community of perils calls for extraordinary liberality, and so doth community in some special service for the church."
These kinds of values would become a part of the psyche of our American culture. I mentioned in another posting regarding the Treaty of Tripoli of how we had to contend with the Muslims. Those countries (as per biblical prophecy) are always at war with everybody and everybody will be at war with them.
"12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Genesis 16 : 12
The Muslim world has terrorized the entire globe and when they are killing people half way across the world, they are killing each other at the same time. Well, Christians do it too, but when the rest of the world sees the way we treat each other, even in war, it is comforting to see how Christian countries react. Take WWI during Christmas. After months of intense fighting, the soldiers of every Christian based country stopped fighting, embraced their enemy soldiers and celebrated Christmas. America - that shining city on a hill. I will have more examples.
I apologize to all who have to wade through mountains of trolling in order for me to be able to get to the point.
America was founded as a Christian nation. But, what does that mean?
In the very first post of this thread, I left a link that nobody clicked on. Regardless of which side of the aisle they stood on, nobody read it. The critics saw the title and jumped on the thread, posting profanities and political propaganda so that the real topic would be obscured and ignored by the intended audience. But we will get to the bottom line.
When our forefathers landed on the shores of the New World, they had a vision for America. The first thing required in the building of anything is to have a vision. What would this new land be like? What would our relationships be like? What would we strive for? How would we fit in? What was the purpose of coming to America? That vision was laid out for everyone in a link in post # 1. Okay, let's give you that link again:
https://www.casa-arts.org/cms/lib/PA01925203/Centricity/Domain/50/A Model of Christian Charity.pdf
Any sermon that is being quoted 300 years after it has been delivered must have some importance. One of the first things I really took note of was early in that sermon when Winthrop said:
"Thirdly, the Law of Nature would give no rules for dealing with enemies, for all are to be considered as friends in the state of innocence, but the Gospel commands love to an enemy. Proof:
If thine enemy hunger, feed him; "Love your enemies... Do good to them that hate you" (Matt. 5:44). This law of the Gospel propounds likewise a difference of seasons and occasions. There is a time when a Christian must sell all and give to the poor, as they did in the Apostles’ times.
There is a time also when Christians (though they give not all yet) must give beyond their ability, as they of Macedonia (2 Cor. 8). Likewise, community of perils calls for extraordinary liberality, and so doth community in some special service for the church."
These kinds of values would become a part of the psyche of our American culture. I mentioned in another posting regarding the Treaty of Tripoli of how we had to contend with the Muslims. Those countries (as per biblical prophecy) are always at war with everybody and everybody will be at war with them.
"12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Genesis 16 : 12
The Muslim world has terrorized the entire globe and when they are killing people half way across the world, they are killing each other at the same time. Well, Christians do it too, but when the rest of the world sees the way we treat each other, even in war, it is comforting to see how Christian countries react. Take WWI during Christmas. After months of intense fighting, the soldiers of every Christian based country stopped fighting, embraced their enemy soldiers and celebrated Christmas. America - that shining city on a hill. I will have more examples.
Porter Rockwell
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The problem I have with you is that, in all reality, you are an idiot.
I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.
Read the first posting. You won't find ANYTHING about the United States destined to take political power for anyone. The first post doesn't concern itself with anything related to seizing any kind of world power. If anything, the converse is true.
I'm supposed to be nice to people who come here and make multiple false allegations, get into name calling and whine every time the thread troll has a problem... and none of you bother to read the first post nor access and read the freaking links???? Come on, dude. You are trolling the thread. And I don't respond to - let me correct that, I don't really read much of what you and the thread troll post because neither one of you had the common courtesy of reading the first post, accessing the link and seeing if this was about some freaking world takeover. The bottom reality is... it's opposite of what you think.
Bezukhov
Anarcho-Capitalist
I have NEVER stated in the course of this thread that Jesus or anyone else intended for Christians in America to seize any kind of earthly political power.
Duuuhhh!! If you're setting up a Christian Nation you must be seizing earthly political power!!!
Porter Rockwell
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LAUGHING AT THE RADICAL LEFT
Repeatedly this thread has been bombarded by left wing trolls that see the thread topic and then begin straw man arguments without even reading the first post and then make up stuff for me to argue against.
Are they out of their minds? What part of America was not founded as a theocracy do they not understand? Their reading skills and computer acumen has not led them to read the first post and they made it impossible for me to conduct this thread and discuss the OP.
They act like they own this damn board and it was just a few weeks ago that a couple of posters in a thread and a moderator (in a PM) said I should start this thread. But, the left wing cowards jumped on this like flies on a fresh turd, never reading the first post and not allowing me to go the direction I was going in. They are cowards and this post shows what would happen if the theists, deists, secularists, and atheists ran this country.... censorship on a world wide scale. Everything they've accused me of they would do themselves and more.
Repeatedly this thread has been bombarded by left wing trolls that see the thread topic and then begin straw man arguments without even reading the first post and then make up stuff for me to argue against.
Are they out of their minds? What part of America was not founded as a theocracy do they not understand? Their reading skills and computer acumen has not led them to read the first post and they made it impossible for me to conduct this thread and discuss the OP.
They act like they own this damn board and it was just a few weeks ago that a couple of posters in a thread and a moderator (in a PM) said I should start this thread. But, the left wing cowards jumped on this like flies on a fresh turd, never reading the first post and not allowing me to go the direction I was going in. They are cowards and this post shows what would happen if the theists, deists, secularists, and atheists ran this country.... censorship on a world wide scale. Everything they've accused me of they would do themselves and more.
Porter Rockwell
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