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Meriweather

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Much of what makes it possible to achieve what is achieved is just as invisible to them as any deity would be, which is why I think Thomas of Aquina and the Scholastics used the methodologies they did in order to teach theology.
It has been years, decades since I've re-read Thomas Aquinas. Another study is well overdue. Thanks for the nudge.
 
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Meriweather

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To paraphrase Gandhi, faiths are ok, it's the faithful who are the problem.
Being a teacher, I have never cared for that observation--too cynical. It would be like me saying, "Knowledge is okay, it's the students who are the problem." We are all learning--and very few (if any) get it all right the first time.
 

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To paraphrase Gandhi, faiths are ok, it's the faithful who are the problem.
Being a teacher, I have never cared for that observation--too cynical. It would be like me saying, "Knowledge is okay, it's the students who are the problem." We are all learning--and very few (if any) get it all right the first time.
It's almost like the faithful aren't the problem. Almost.
 

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None of the Bible pertains to you and me when we consider that we're not Israel.
Ah, but what is Israel's role? It is to be a light to the Gentiles. And as Jesus noted, a light should not be hidden under a bushel basket. We are adopted in to Israel's story and sprout from there.
At any rate, the Bible is not the Gentile's story. It was not written by, to, or about Gentiles (except insofar as we can count the diaspora as Gentile).

Ethnic Israel was nearly always a rebellious and conquered minority, never really growing and prospering, never really honoring God’s directive to be the light for the nations (Is 49:6). Though a few outsiders did join, such as the Queen of Sheba and Queen Helena of Adiabene and others as recorded in Esther 8:17 and recalled in Hebrews 11, Israel alienated herself from her larger communities; by and by, she failed in her directive. And more than that, she allowed the Satan into her temple.

Hence the Messiah, who came only for the house of Israel. He left the work of proselytizing to his disciples. So, yes of course foreigners are free to enter, and that begins to happen as Israel's history comes to a close.
 
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Meriweather

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So God talks to you? Should I worry about you?
Grin. I didn't hear an audible voice, and both times it was to deliver a message to someone I didn't even know! And, yes, I flat out told God if He could give the message to me, why not give it directly to the person. (See the trouble all those prayers of "Here I am, Lord, send me" can get one into?) Think about it. How would you feel going up to a perfect stranger and saying, "Excuse me, but I was asked to give you a message." I don't know how you would react, but there was some balking on my part. Both times.
 

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When you recognized you're agnostic, did you continue to join community worship, or did you stop going? Why did you choose to either continue to attend church or stop attending church?
I stopped going the moment my parents stopped making me go. As soon as i started learning what was actually in the Bible, i knew it was nonsense. I learned about other faiths, and they all failed the same test.
 

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It's almost like the faithful aren't the problem.
What defines them as "not a problem" is the degree to which they ignore the literal reading of the iron aged nonsense. That's not exactly high praise of religion. "The more you ignore of the religion, the better the person you are."
 
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When you recognized you're agnostic, did you continue to join community worship, or did you stop going? Why did you choose to either continue to attend church or stop attending church?
I stopped going the moment my parents stopped making me go. As soon as i started learning what was actually in the Bible, i knew it was nonsense. I learned about other faiths, and they all failed the same test.
So what specifically is in the Bible that bothers you?
 

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When you recognized you're agnostic, did you continue to join community worship, or did you stop going? Why did you choose to either continue to attend church or stop attending church?
I stopped going the moment my parents stopped making me go. As soon as i started learning what was actually in the Bible, i knew it was nonsense. I learned about other faiths, and they all failed the same test.
Hopefully your parents set the example and attended church and didn't just leave you at the door... I would have made you attend church until you left home on your own.
 
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To believe in the supernatural I'd have to experience the supernatural. I never have. There are miracles throughout the Bible, how about one for me? Maybe a burning bush? Even a small one would do, just so it offers no natural explanation.
As someone who has experienced the supernatural, I advise to think this through. Think of the most amazing thing that you have done with the realization that this was a one-time experience. There may be few, if any more, like it. I have often had the rueful thought that there is a reason there are so few supernatural experiences: It cannot help but be the most addicting event ever...and it only lasted seconds, a minute or two at the most.

Jesus observed, "Blessed are they who have not seen yet believe." Take my word on this. They are indeed blessed.
My philosophy is exactly the opposite. I believe in nothing I can't see for myself. It has keep me from believing in many things I think are false: aliens, leprechauns, ghosts, sasquatch, etc. Do you believe in them? Why or why not?
So, you believe your feet disappear and no longer exist when you put socks on?
I am a very trusting person. I believe dinosaurs walked the earth. I've never seen one or even dug up a dino fossil but I believe they existed because I'm convinced I could dig up a fossil if I chose to put in the effort. I'm not convinced God would talk to me no matter how much effort I put in.
It's a hole lot easier to seek GOD's input than it is to dig up a dinosaur bone.
 

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When you recognized you're agnostic, did you continue to join community worship, or did you stop going? Why did you choose to either continue to attend church or stop attending church?
I stopped going the moment my parents stopped making me go. As soon as i started learning what was actually in the Bible, i knew it was nonsense. I learned about other faiths, and they all failed the same test.
So what specifically is in the Bible that bothers you?
All of the immorality of thw disgusting god character, provably incorrect claims, and the pile of magical nonsense. It doesn't "bother" me, though. I just can't buy that nonsense.
 

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I chose to stop when I reached the age of reason.
Any specific issue for choosing to leave your faith?
I can wrap my head around the idea of a supreme being, I suppose.

What I can't figure out, though, is how anyone could be so arrogant as to believe that they're "right" and that they're the ones who've got it figured out...
Actually people of faith are the humble ones. They KNOW the frailties of mankind.. The only thing they claim to have figured out is that man-made law can be either flawed or greatly abused by tyrants and the power-hungry.. That's WHY the leftist socialist/commies target them so viciously..

The rest of what they know is "faith based" and harms no one.
 

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Haven't gone Agnostic., I'm still "spiritual". Actually taught "Sunday School" at a Jewish temple in my late 20s.. Staged a "youth revolt" in the 2 Jewish teen groups that were split between Reform and Conservative temples. Because the ELDERS in their "wisdom" prevented these 3 dozen or so kids from having "joint events" and socials in a town with only about 80 Jewish families !!! Won that one for God.. He rewarded me with 1st wife, who I "swiped" from the other Temple, under His direction and resulted in the ONLY wedding in the history of that town that was officiated by BOTH Rabbis. :auiqs.jpg:

So -- after living in Cali for many years and then moving to the "buckle of the Bible Belt" -- I'm feeling MUCH more comfortable surrounded by people of faith. Their humility and "service" ethics are amazing. Only folks that will get up on Sunday, herd the kids, get cleaned up and spend 2 hours of their morning listening to inspiration to do good..

It's fundamental human nature to have the DISCIPLINE to do stuff like that and do it "religiously"... It's a regime that atheists and folks that bash "people of faith" simply dont understand and have no substitute for.. Unless you consider a Sunday morning listening to NPR --- inspirational and motivating... :cool:

So I'm kinda now in the same place that the American Founding Fathers were in terms of being turned off by inter-sectarian religious battles and wars.. And to the point of BELIEVING that the ONLY thing you can trust in is "Natural Law" that transcends the whims of man.. If you're ever in a concentration camp or a victim of "secular humanism" -- you'll eventually be there with me.. And understand what being "humble and serving" really is....
 

alang1216

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So God talks to you? Should I worry about you?
Grin. I didn't hear an audible voice, and both times it was to deliver a message to someone I didn't even know! And, yes, I flat out told God if He could give the message to me, why not give it directly to the person. (See the trouble all those prayers of "Here I am, Lord, send me" can get one into?) Think about it. How would you feel going up to a perfect stranger and saying, "Excuse me, but I was asked to give you a message." I don't know how you would react, but there was some balking on my part. Both times.
What was the form of the message and how did you know it was real and not imagined? (I don't doubt what you wrote, I honestly curious.)
 

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To believe in the supernatural I'd have to experience the supernatural. I never have. There are miracles throughout the Bible, how about one for me? Maybe a burning bush? Even a small one would do, just so it offers no natural explanation.
As someone who has experienced the supernatural, I advise to think this through. Think of the most amazing thing that you have done with the realization that this was a one-time experience. There may be few, if any more, like it. I have often had the rueful thought that there is a reason there are so few supernatural experiences: It cannot help but be the most addicting event ever...and it only lasted seconds, a minute or two at the most.

Jesus observed, "Blessed are they who have not seen yet believe." Take my word on this. They are indeed blessed.
My philosophy is exactly the opposite. I believe in nothing I can't see for myself. It has keep me from believing in many things I think are false: aliens, leprechauns, ghosts, sasquatch, etc. Do you believe in them? Why or why not?
So, you believe your feet disappear and no longer exist when you put socks on?
I am a very trusting person. I believe dinosaurs walked the earth. I've never seen one or even dug up a dino fossil but I believe they existed because I'm convinced I could dig up a fossil if I chose to put in the effort. I'm not convinced God would talk to me no matter how much effort I put in.
It's a hole lot easier to seek GOD's input than it is to dig up a dinosaur bone.
A bone you can hold in your hand and show to others. "God's input" is very different, I'm guessing you don't hear voices. How do you know who it came from and what it means?
 
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Meriweather

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What was the form of the message and how did you know it was real and not imagined? (I don't doubt what you wrote, I honestly curious.)
One evening I was in church praying at the beginning of Mass. (I usually went in the morning.)

I have a great imagination, but it works nothing like this. A soundless voice filled my mind with the message, After Church tell the lady who just walked in she should go.

The lady was wearing a hat, and as I said previously, I was taken aback and didn't want to do it. I wasn't imagining anything, but what if something had just gone tragically wrong with my brain? (Didn't feel like it had, but...) Not being Mary who simply accepted her assignment, I elected to emulate Gideon and lay a fleece before the Lord. If the lady took her hat off before communion, I would accept the veracity of what I had been asked to do. (Ladies don't usually remove their hats.)

Sure enough, when it was time for communion the lady got up without removing her hat and was walking toward the end of the pew. Just as she reached the end, she suddenly removed her hat and plopped it on the head of the child in front of her.

After church I gave her the message and her eyes grew huge. "I've been praying over that for over a week!" (She had been wondering if she should or should not go visit her son.)
 
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Meriweather

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Apart from the faithful. They know they have it right from the off...
My position is not a Christian position. I come from a Less Government position. I am for telling people facts and letting people do as they want.
 

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