After The Public Schools Collapse--What Then?

[gipper]

The government schools in poor and minority areas collapsed long ago. It isn’t all that good in many other areas. Lack of discipline is one of the biggest problems.

Solutions? It certainly isn’t more money.

Okay, that's just whining.

Now they're going to collapse all over because we don't have teachers to fill the classrooms. So we will get under-educated, under-credentialed adults to do it, who will fold even faster than current teachers are folding. So the problems will continue apace.

Then what?

Solutions. What you got? Or was the idea just to cut down and destroy and then stand on the rubble waving the flag of victory?

I don’t have solutions other than imposing discipline. Without discipline in the classroom, who would want to be a teacher?

But you're a libertarian, and the parents don't want that, you realize. Parents do not want government teachers to discipline THEIR children (just maybe the rest of the children in the class).

So now what? Does the gov't servant override the will of the taxpaying parent?

You see why people are leaving teaching and not going into it?

Make simple rules and impose them. Expelled kids who break the rules. This was done decades ago, when the system functioned well.

Rates of high school graduation have been rising steadily in the post war era. At the turn of the last century, only 7% of Americans were high school graduates. On the cusp of World War II, only half of Americans had a high school diploma.
By, the '60s, that rate was up to 75% and the most recent DOE figures shows high school graduation rates at an all-time-high of almost 85%.

Graduating HS means nothing today. Many graduate yet can’t read or write above third grade levels.

Graduating from a failed system, doesn’t prove anything.

 

[SweetSue92]

Okay, that's just whining.

Now they're going to collapse all over because we don't have teachers to fill the classrooms. So we will get under-educated, under-credentialed adults to do it, who will fold even faster than current teachers are folding. So the problems will continue apace.

Then what?

Solutions. What you got? Or was the idea just to cut down and destroy and then stand on the rubble waving the flag of victory?

I don’t have solutions other than imposing discipline. Without discipline in the classroom, who would want to be a teacher?

But you're a libertarian, and the parents don't want that, you realize. Parents do not want government teachers to discipline THEIR children (just maybe the rest of the children in the class).

So now what? Does the gov't servant override the will of the taxpaying parent?

You see why people are leaving teaching and not going into it?

Make simple rules and impose them. Expelled kids who break the rules. This was done decades ago, when the system functioned well.

It's too simplistic to just say "go back to the way it was". Sometimes you can; many times you cannot. For example, you cannot expel any students who have labels of special education or disability--or in any case, it's very difficult to do so. Hence Nikolas Cruz.

What worked in the past, likely works today. It would be much better than what we have today.

Okay. How do you turn society around so that PARENTS have an appetite for this? When a child is violent with another child, and gets suspended and the parent is called, and the parent stops on the way home to buy the child a present because the child feels bad....can you explain to me how you turn this system around?

This parental culture of "you cannot discipline MY CHILD" is not prevalent just in some cultures. It's everywhere. People do not trust the public schools, in part because, yes, the Right has been badmouthing them for decades. So if you do not trust them, why on earth would you let those people discipline your child?

 

[P F Tinmore]

teachers / union workers have been bashed and demeaned by right wingers for quite a while now.... who the heck would want their low paying job, with that kind of abuse and belittling?

Indeed, right wingers want to trash public education so they have an excuse to sell education off to their rich friends.

 

[gipper]

Good parents will always find a way to educate their children.

It seems the fastest growing sector in homeschooling is in the Hispanic community.

Hispanic students now make up more than a quarter of the U.S. homeschooling population — a figure of 26 percent that’s up from 16 percent in 2012 and 5.3 percent back in 2003, according to data from the National Household Education Surveys Program (NHES).

The New Face of U.S. Homeschooling Is Hispanic

Of course, GOOD parents will. Many parents are not good parents. Many parents are single parents and need to be at work during the day. Many parents need to work, period, because it's harder to make a single income work even if the parents are married.

I'm saying no public schools. What do we do with all those children who don't have good parents?

I'm not saying it will come to this. In America, very few prognostications of disaster actually come to pass. We are, if anything, a practical and moderate people. Since public schools in the US are locally funded, the schools most at risk are those in large cities, where the cost of providing basic education is much higher.

However, in a worse case scenario, where big cities public school systems collapse, it could lead to a growing class gap in the US, something we've never experienced to any degree as wide as England or Europe.

However, in this case, the gap isn't based so much on ethnicity or heritage, but on parental responsibility. A class structure based on personal responsibility could be an eminently desirable outcome.

We are already there. The class gap already exists. Few students in poor inner city districts get a decent education. This has been true for decades.

Of course it is. And without a doubt, the single most impactful factor to a child's education--outside of supportive parents--are good teachers. Not books, not facilities, not even the much-touted technology. Teachers.

We don't have them. We're not getting them. Not in the inner cities, not seemingly anywhere.

Agreed. A good teacher is about as rare as good reporting by the MSM.

Teaching in the inner city, has become a dangerous job.

 

[SweetSue92]

When your suggestion is homeschooling, that's not really a practical suggestion for fixing the ills of the public education

I wasn't suggesting how to fix public school education. My child didn't go to public school, secondary or post-secondary. I don't have a stake in the perpetuation of the public school system personally. I'm merely suggesting that if it does collapse, it won't as severely effect children of responsible parents.

You do have a stake. You absolutely have a stake. If you don't think we won't be paying for all those children who have basically no school to go to, think again.

In fact I would say the often horrid schools in our cities is something we ALREADY pay for. All of us. You bet we do.

 

[SweetSue92]

Good parents will always find a way to educate their children.

It seems the fastest growing sector in homeschooling is in the Hispanic community.

Hispanic students now make up more than a quarter of the U.S. homeschooling population — a figure of 26 percent that’s up from 16 percent in 2012 and 5.3 percent back in 2003, according to data from the National Household Education Surveys Program (NHES).

The New Face of U.S. Homeschooling Is Hispanic

Of course, GOOD parents will. Many parents are not good parents. Many parents are single parents and need to be at work during the day. Many parents need to work, period, because it's harder to make a single income work even if the parents are married.

I'm saying no public schools. What do we do with all those children who don't have good parents?

I'm not saying it will come to this. In America, very few prognostications of disaster actually come to pass. We are, if anything, a practical and moderate people. Since public schools in the US are locally funded, the schools most at risk are those in large cities, where the cost of providing basic education is much higher.

However, in a worse case scenario, where big cities public school systems collapse, it could lead to a growing class gap in the US, something we've never experienced to any degree as wide as England or Europe.

However, in this case, the gap isn't based so much on ethnicity or heritage, but on parental responsibility. A class structure based on personal responsibility could be an eminently desirable outcome.

We are already there. The class gap already exists. Few students in poor inner city districts get a decent education. This has been true for decades.

Of course it is. And without a doubt, the single most impactful factor to a child's education--outside of supportive parents--are good teachers. Not books, not facilities, not even the much-touted technology. Teachers.

We don't have them. We're not getting them. Not in the inner cities, not seemingly anywhere.

Agreed. A good teacher is about as rare as good reporting by the MSM.

Teaching in the inner city, has become a dangerous job.

How do you know how rare a good teacher is?

 

[gipper]

I don’t have solutions other than imposing discipline. Without discipline in the classroom, who would want to be a teacher?

But you're a libertarian, and the parents don't want that, you realize. Parents do not want government teachers to discipline THEIR children (just maybe the rest of the children in the class).

So now what? Does the gov't servant override the will of the taxpaying parent?

You see why people are leaving teaching and not going into it?

Make simple rules and impose them. Expelled kids who break the rules. This was done decades ago, when the system functioned well.

It's too simplistic to just say "go back to the way it was". Sometimes you can; many times you cannot. For example, you cannot expel any students who have labels of special education or disability--or in any case, it's very difficult to do so. Hence Nikolas Cruz.

What worked in the past, likely works today. It would be much better than what we have today.

Okay. How do you turn society around so that PARENTS have an appetite for this? When a child is violent with another child, and gets suspended and the parent is called, and the parent stops on the way home to buy the child a present because the child feels bad....can you explain to me how you turn this system around?

This parental culture of "you cannot discipline MY CHILD" is not prevalent just in some cultures. It's everywhere. People do not trust the public schools, in part because, yes, the Right has been badmouthing them for decades. So if you do not trust them, why on earth would you let those people discipline your child?

Tough shit. Impose clear concise rules and strictly abide by them. The parents can bitch all they want.

 

[SweetSue92]

teachers / union workers have been bashed and demeaned by right wingers for quite a while now.... who the heck would want their low paying job, with that kind of abuse and belittling?

Indeed, right wingers want to trash public education so they have an excuse to sell education off to their rich friends.

If that is true--and I've read it just now on this thread for sure--it's short-sighted at best. Like I said in the OP.

I'm not saying education SHOULD be provided by the gov't necessarily. But if we don't put thought into where this is going, or if we stupidly think this won't affect us....well, I just don't know what to say about that.

 

[gipper]

Of course, GOOD parents will. Many parents are not good parents. Many parents are single parents and need to be at work during the day. Many parents need to work, period, because it's harder to make a single income work even if the parents are married.

I'm saying no public schools. What do we do with all those children who don't have good parents?

I'm not saying it will come to this. In America, very few prognostications of disaster actually come to pass. We are, if anything, a practical and moderate people. Since public schools in the US are locally funded, the schools most at risk are those in large cities, where the cost of providing basic education is much higher.

However, in a worse case scenario, where big cities public school systems collapse, it could lead to a growing class gap in the US, something we've never experienced to any degree as wide as England or Europe.

However, in this case, the gap isn't based so much on ethnicity or heritage, but on parental responsibility. A class structure based on personal responsibility could be an eminently desirable outcome.

We are already there. The class gap already exists. Few students in poor inner city districts get a decent education. This has been true for decades.

Of course it is. And without a doubt, the single most impactful factor to a child's education--outside of supportive parents--are good teachers. Not books, not facilities, not even the much-touted technology. Teachers.

We don't have them. We're not getting them. Not in the inner cities, not seemingly anywhere.

Agreed. A good teacher is about as rare as good reporting by the MSM.

Teaching in the inner city, has become a dangerous job.

How do you know how rare a good teacher is?

Bye

 

[Windparadox]

The government schools in poor and minority areas collapsed long ago. It isn’t all that good in many other areas. Lack of discipline is one of the biggest problems.Solutions? It certainly isn’t more money.

`
As I see it, the problem started with busing but I digress. The way it really is now is urban vs rural schools. And the problem runs deeper after that. Kids coming to school with no discipline, no sense of right and wrong and the moronic expectation is that a teacher is supposed to cure that? Urban schools also tend to be top heavy with needless bureaucracy, much of in place due to the federal and state governments. These urban school bureaucracies suck up funding best applied by the principal of each school.

Rural school districts, least ways where I live in Wisconsin, are doing quite well.
`

 

[SweetSue92]

But you're a libertarian, and the parents don't want that, you realize. Parents do not want government teachers to discipline THEIR children (just maybe the rest of the children in the class).

So now what? Does the gov't servant override the will of the taxpaying parent?

You see why people are leaving teaching and not going into it?

Make simple rules and impose them. Expelled kids who break the rules. This was done decades ago, when the system functioned well.

It's too simplistic to just say "go back to the way it was". Sometimes you can; many times you cannot. For example, you cannot expel any students who have labels of special education or disability--or in any case, it's very difficult to do so. Hence Nikolas Cruz.

What worked in the past, likely works today. It would be much better than what we have today.

Okay. How do you turn society around so that PARENTS have an appetite for this? When a child is violent with another child, and gets suspended and the parent is called, and the parent stops on the way home to buy the child a present because the child feels bad....can you explain to me how you turn this system around?

This parental culture of "you cannot discipline MY CHILD" is not prevalent just in some cultures. It's everywhere. People do not trust the public schools, in part because, yes, the Right has been badmouthing them for decades. So if you do not trust them, why on earth would you let those people discipline your child?

Tough shit. Impose clear concise rules and strictly abide by them. The parents can bitch all they want.

So the gov't sets the rules and the taxpayers do not have a say.

Wow. Not very libertarian of you, is it?

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm not saying it will come to this. In America, very few prognostications of disaster actually come to pass. We are, if anything, a practical and moderate people. Since public schools in the US are locally funded, the schools most at risk are those in large cities, where the cost of providing basic education is much higher.

However, in a worse case scenario, where big cities public school systems collapse, it could lead to a growing class gap in the US, something we've never experienced to any degree as wide as England or Europe.

However, in this case, the gap isn't based so much on ethnicity or heritage, but on parental responsibility. A class structure based on personal responsibility could be an eminently desirable outcome.

We are already there. The class gap already exists. Few students in poor inner city districts get a decent education. This has been true for decades.

Of course it is. And without a doubt, the single most impactful factor to a child's education--outside of supportive parents--are good teachers. Not books, not facilities, not even the much-touted technology. Teachers.

We don't have them. We're not getting them. Not in the inner cities, not seemingly anywhere.

Agreed. A good teacher is about as rare as good reporting by the MSM.

Teaching in the inner city, has become a dangerous job.

How do you know how rare a good teacher is?

Bye

Guaranteed, the answer was going to be "I went to school, my kids went to school."

"I had a really bad teacher a few times in school"

"I know what the papers say about bad teachers"

And this guy b1tches about the MSM. Sure. Bye

 

[SweetSue92]

The government schools in poor and minority areas collapsed long ago. It isn’t all that good in many other areas. Lack of discipline is one of the biggest problems.Solutions? It certainly isn’t more money.

`
As I see it, the problem started with busing but I digress. The way it really is now is urban vs rural schools. And the problem runs deeper after that. Kids coming to school with no discipline, no sense of right and wrong and the moronic expectation is that a teacher is supposed to cure that? Urban schools also tend to be top heavy with needless bureaucracy, much of in place due to the federal and state governments. These urban school bureaucracies suck up funding best applied by the principal of each school.

Rural school districts, least ways where I live in Wisconsin, are doing quite well.
`

You said:

Kids coming to school with no discipline, no sense of right and wrong and the moronic expectation is that a teacher is supposed to cure that?

Yes. But cure it in a way that causes no distress or sense of unease in the child whatsoever, and makes rainbows and butterflies come out of her ears in jubilation and perfect bliss every minute of every school day.

No struggle. No challenges. No difficulties. Just joy and happiness for everyone's perfect child. That's Being a Teacher, 2018.,

Sign up everyone

 

[P F Tinmore]

The government schools in poor and minority areas collapsed long ago. It isn’t all that good in many other areas. Lack of discipline is one of the biggest problems.Solutions? It certainly isn’t more money.

`
As I see it, the problem started with busing but I digress. The way it really is now is urban vs rural schools. And the problem runs deeper after that. Kids coming to school with no discipline, no sense of right and wrong and the moronic expectation is that a teacher is supposed to cure that? Urban schools also tend to be top heavy with needless bureaucracy, much of in place due to the federal and state governments. These urban school bureaucracies suck up funding best applied by the principal of each school.

Rural school districts, least ways where I live in Wisconsin, are doing quite well.
`

As I see it, the problem started with busing but I digress.

Good point. When we experienced forced busing the PTA was closed down. In its place were School Community Councils. Members had to attend pro busing propaganda classes.

An active interaction between parents and schools is very important.

 

[gipper]

The government schools in poor and minority areas collapsed long ago. It isn’t all that good in many other areas. Lack of discipline is one of the biggest problems.Solutions? It certainly isn’t more money.

`
As I see it, the problem started with busing but I digress. The way it really is now is urban vs rural schools. And the problem runs deeper after that. Kids coming to school with no discipline, no sense of right and wrong and the moronic expectation is that a teacher is supposed to cure that? Urban schools also tend to be top heavy with needless bureaucracy, much of in place due to the federal and state governments. These urban school bureaucracies suck up funding best applied by the principal of each school.

Rural school districts, least ways where I live in Wisconsin, are doing quite well.
`

As I see it, the problem started with busing but I digress.

Good point. When we experienced forced busing the PTA was closed down. In its place were School Community Councils. Members had to attend pro busing propaganda classes.

An active interaction between parents and schools is very important.

Yes bussing was dumb.

I started the government schools back in the early 60s, in Detroit. My older sister was to start high school. We had a high school two blocks away, but my parents were told she had to be bussed across town. My parents said F that and we moved to the suburbs.

Bussing did nothing to improve education and it also helped collapse Detroit.

 

[Windparadox]

Graduating HS means nothing today. Many graduate yet can’t read or write above third grade levels.Graduating from a failed system, doesn’t prove anything.

`
You are right. One of the worst laws in education ever passed was the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB). It tied together test scores with arbitrary graduation rates. In order to receive and government assistance, which schools became dependent on, they had to graduate X amount of students per year. This in turn put heavy pressure on teachers to pass or graduate students who were just marginally literate, or they would lose the feds grant money.

Graduating from an urban high school means nothing these days.
`

 

[Windparadox]

You said:Kids coming to school with no discipline, no sense of right and wrong and the moronic expectation is that a teacher is supposed to cure that? Yes. But cure it in a way that causes no distress or sense of unease in the child whatsoever, and makes rainbows and butterflies come out of her ears in jubilation and perfect bliss every minute of every school day.No struggle. No challenges. No difficulties. Just joy and happiness for everyone's perfect child. That's Being a Teacher, 2018.,Sign up everyone

`
That is true for kindergarten but quickly loses its context once a child enters 1st grade. Without familial back up, it falls apart quickly.
`
`

 

[SweetSue92]

Graduating HS means nothing today. Many graduate yet can’t read or write above third grade levels.Graduating from a failed system, doesn’t prove anything.

`
You are right. One of the worst laws in education ever passed was the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB). It tied together test scores with arbitrary graduation rates. In order to receive and government assistance, which schools became dependent on, they had to graduate X amount of students per year. This in turn put heavy pressure on teachers to pass or graduate students who were just marginally literate, or they would lose the feds grant money.

Graduating from an urban high school means nothing these days.
`

Conservatives love these "accountability" measures. When they're tied to standardized tests they are laughable. They are generally laughable when tied to humans, but whatever.

I often compare them to driver education schools. How bout we did that with driver's training? Let's say we held driver instructor's "accountable" for how their students did on the road. They would correctly cite all kinds of extenuating circumstances, not the least of which is the personal accountability of the driver, not JUST how he/she was taught.

But no latitude is given teachers. If the kids aren't producing, it's all on us. Parenting, socioeconomic factors, nothing else comes into play. Those kids are widgets and THEY WILL PRODUCE

 

[SweetSue92]

You said:Kids coming to school with no discipline, no sense of right and wrong and the moronic expectation is that a teacher is supposed to cure that? Yes. But cure it in a way that causes no distress or sense of unease in the child whatsoever, and makes rainbows and butterflies come out of her ears in jubilation and perfect bliss every minute of every school day.No struggle. No challenges. No difficulties. Just joy and happiness for everyone's perfect child. That's Being a Teacher, 2018.,Sign up everyone

`
That is true for kindergarten but quickly loses its context once a child enters 1st grade. Without familial back up, it falls apart quickly.
`
`

Well there are quite a few families of all types who don't back up much of anything at school but at the same time, are always quite contentious at well. It's worse than I've ever seen it. Just about everywhere.

 

[Windparadox]

Conservatives love these "accountability" measures. When they're tied to standardized tests they are laughable. They are generally laughable when tied to humans, but whatever.I often compare them to driver education schools. How bout we did that with driver's training? Let's say we held driver instructor's "accountable" for how their students did on the road. They would correctly cite all kinds of extenuating circumstances, not the least of which is the personal accountability of the driver, not JUST how he/she was taught.But no latitude is given teachers. If the kids aren't producing, it's all on us. Parenting, socioeconomic factors, nothing else comes into play. Those kids are widgets and THEY WILL PRODUCE

`
I support the teachers. They went to school to learn how to teach, not play nanny, personal counselor, moral instructor, diaper changer, socio-ethical judge, behavior modifier, etc. The good teachers have for the most part, fled the urban public school insanity.
`