Accused Whitmer kidnapper rips judge, faults FBI for using undercover informants

[Missourian]

braalian

Read this then tell me you don't have doubts that this FBI investigation was all above board...and this is no rightwing rag... it's Buzzfeed...

The FBI Knew Exactly What Its “Double Agent” Was Doing, Says A Defendant In The Michigan Kidnapping Case

Prosecutors say the informant’s statements should be barred from court, but defense attorneys have other ideas.

www.buzzfeednews.com

 

[braalian]

braalian

Read this then tell me you don't have doubts that this FBI investigation was all above board...and this is no rightwing rag... it's Buzzfeed...

The FBI Knew Exactly What Its “Double Agent” Was Doing, Says A Defendant In The Michigan Kidnapping Case

Prosecutors say the informant’s statements should be barred from court, but defense attorneys have other ideas.

www.buzzfeednews.com

It was a sting operation.

From the definition of sting operation as it pertains the ethical implications and accusations of entrapment:


Law enforcement may have to be careful not to provoke the commission of a crime by someone who would not otherwise have done so. Additionally, in the process of such operations, the police often engage in the same crimes, such as buying or selling drugs, soliciting prostitutes, etc. In common law jurisdictions, the defendant may invoke the defense of entrapment.

Contrary to popular misconceptions, however, rules against entrapment do not prohibit undercover police officers from posing as criminals or denying that they are police. Entrapment is typically a defense only when suspects are pressured into being implicated in a crime they would probably not have committed otherwise, but the legal definition of this pressure varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

This defense of entrapment doesn’t work when the prosecution and law enforcement can prove the accused had predisposition toward the acts the sting orchestrated.

Long before this specific sting operation took shape, the militia members on trial proposed attacking the governors of multiple states, including Whitmer, Democrat Ralph Northam of Virginia and Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine.

Another defendant brought an improvised explosive device to a June 2020 meeting with activists from multiple states and referred to himself as a "terrorist" who was going to "burn motherfucking houses down, blow shit up.”

Obviously, all of this qualifies as establishing predisposition.

Again, it doesn’t matter if the government helped orchestrate a kidnapping plot designed to unearth domestic terrorists.

They infiltrated a group of men who’d been vocal about wishing to commit various kidnappings and brought bombs with them to meetings, and expressed intent to use said bombs.

Yes, they “set up” the defendants by posing as likeminded milita members and convinced the defendants to join them in a plot to kidnap the governor. That’s how stings work.

The FBI infiltrates and “sets up” domestic Islamic terrorists exactly the same way.

 

[braalian]

And, putting aside the legal definition of entrapment, there’s the simple fact that the defendants all willingly agreed and participated in (what they thought) was an actual plot to kidnap a United States governor, blow up bridges, and foment an insurrection.

That’s terrorism, pure and simple. Doesn’t matter what your politics are. No one forced them to do anything. Free will is free will. No one should feel sorry for them.

 

[Oldestyle]

You do realize that going undercover to ferret out criminals is something law enforcement does routinely?

Are undercover cops “framing” Johns when they pose as hookers?

How about when FBI agents pretend to be children on the internet and set up dates with pedophiles?

These people could claim that they wouldn’t have engaged in these acts if the FBI hadn’t “tricked” them.

“Tricking” criminals into planning crimes is a valid method of ferreting them out.

And you keep mentioning that the kidnapping “never happened” as if that means anything. Of *course* it never happened. The undercover agents involved stopped it before anything happened. That’s how undercover stings work.

With all due respect, Braalian...if you have to "trick" someone into planning a crime by encouraging them to do so...you're not really ferreting out bad guys...you're entrapping people! Aren't there enough REAL bad guys out there that the FBI could be concentrating on instead of this kind of nonsense? Do you REALLY think those idiots would have kidnapped Whitmer? I think we both know that it was a lot of hot air and cold beers that hatched this whole "plot"!

 

[BackAgain]

If that particular defendant did actually urge the murder of either President Trump or President Obama, then I don’t give the lowliest of rat’s assholes that he thinks he’s being treated unfairly. For if either or both of those claims are true, he’s just a fucking scumbag piece of shit.

I have never liked Obama. But I believe in both the rule of law and the ideal of a Republic run on the basis of ballots not bullets. Anybody looking to assassinate either former President deserves a good solid ass whooping in a court of law. Fuck him. (Again, if it’s true that he made such comments.)

 

[Winco]

.if you have to "trick" someone into planning a crime by encouraging them to do so

Is that the way you see it?

So, the FBI, in your opinion, searches out people to destroy?
Rather than the obvious, that suggests that the FBI targeted criminals.
Which is what the FBI does.

 

[Oldestyle]

And, putting aside the legal definition of entrapment, there’s the simple fact that the defendants all willingly agreed and participated in (what they thought) was an actual plot to kidnap a United States governor, blow up bridges, and foment an insurrection.

That’s terrorism, pure and simple. Doesn’t matter what your politics are. No one forced them to do anything. Free will is free will. No one should feel sorry for them.

Let me be quite clear here...I have ZERO problem with the FBI infiltrating white supremacist groups or militias or any other "hate" group that's out there. I think they SHOULD be there keeping an eye on the crazies! My issue is when the government begins to think that encouraging crimes is the same thing as monitoring a group to prevent crimes! I'm sorry but it's not and that's a slippery slope once you start going down that path!

 

[braalian]

With all due respect, Braalian...if you have to "trick" someone into planning a crime by encouraging them to do so...you're not really ferreting out bad guys...you're entrapping people! Aren't there enough REAL bad guys out there that the FBI could be concentrating on instead of this kind of nonsense? Do you REALLY think those idiots would have kidnapped Whitmer? I think we both know that it was a lot of hot air and cold beers that hatched this whole "plot"!

Again, that’s what a sting operation is.

They didn’t target random individuals out of nowhere. Maybe they were a bunch of drunk good old boys blowing hot air, but what they said clearly caught the attention of the FBI, and what they said at their meetings was enough to establish predisposition.

I get why people here don’t like the idea that the FBI goaded these guys into going along with the kidnapping plot. But go along with it they did. They *did* agree to kidnap a governor. They *did* willingly participate.

Do you have similar problems with cops stinging Johns as undercover prostitutes?

Busting drug dealers with fake drug deals?

Infiltrating meetings of Muslims and catching those who take the bait with fake terrorists plots in exactly the same manner as they infiltrated this group and orchestrated a fake terrorist plot to kidnap the governor?

what’s the difference?

 

[BackAgain]

Let me be quite clear here...I have ZERO problem with the FBI infiltrating white supremacist groups or militias or any other "hate" group that's out there. I think they SHOULD be there keeping an eye on the crazies! My issue is when the government begins to think that encouraging crimes is the same thing as monitoring a group to prevent crimes! I'm sorry but it's not and that's a slippery slope once you start going down that path!

Simple clear and correct.

 

[Oldestyle]

Is that the way you see it?

So, the FBI, in your opinion, searches out people to destroy?
Rather than the obvious, that suggests that the FBI targeted criminals.
Which is what the FBI does.

Again, I have no problem with the FBI monitoring extremist groups. That's their job...to protect us from the crazies. Again, I have a problem with law enforcement encouraging bad behavior in order to arrest people. That's not the way our legal system should be functioning. The FBI should have monitored that group, observed their plans (NOT encouraged plans to kidnap someone!) and if they really felt there was a threat...THEN arrest them!

 

[braalian]

Let me be quite clear here...I have ZERO problem with the FBI infiltrating white supremacist groups or militias or any other "hate" group that's out there. I think they SHOULD be there keeping an eye on the crazies! My issue is when the government begins to think that encouraging crimes is the same thing as monitoring a group to prevent crimes! I'm sorry but it's not and that's a slippery slope once you start going down that path!

Yeah they probably *could* have just continued to monitor these guys to make sure their meetings never evolved past drunken shit talking.

But they didn’t. They organized a sting operation to bait and unearth those who were receptive to a call to kidnap the governor.

I guess the moral of the story is: if you don’t want to end up in jail, don’t go along with batshit crazy kidnapping plots some drinking buddy proposes at a militia meeting. He might be an undercover Fed.

Easy to stay out of jail if you don’t help plan to kidnap a US governor.

 

[Oldestyle]

Again, that’s what a sting operation is.

They didn’t target random individuals out of nowhere. Maybe they were a bunch of drunk good old boys blowing hot air, but what they said clearly caught the attention of the FBI, and what they said at their meetings was enough to establish predisposition.

I get why people here don’t like the idea that the FBI goaded these guys into going along with the kidnapping plot. But go along with it they did. They *did* agree to kidnap a governor. They *did* willingly participate.

Do you have similar problems with cops stinging Johns as undercover prostitutes?

Busting drug dealers with fake drug deals?

Infiltrating meetings of Muslims and catching those who take the bait with fake terrorists plots in exactly the same manner as they infiltrated this group and orchestrated a fake terrorist plot to kidnap the governor?

what’s the difference?

I have a serious problem with Police undercover prostitute stings if THEY suggest to the Johns a sex act! I have a serious problem with a Police drug sting operation if THEY offer money to someone who's in bad financial shape knowing they might be desperate enough to do a drug deal that they otherwise wouldn't!

You don't need to corrupt people in order to arrest them! That isn't what law enforcement should be all about! I find it amazing that the same liberal left that used to abhor this kind of police behavior now revels in it! Just remember...when you start using law enforcement against your political foes you open the door for your political foes to do the same thing to YOU when they're in power! Do we really want to live in THAT country?

 

[Oldestyle]

Yeah they probably *could* have just continued to monitor these guys to make sure their meetings never evolved past drunken shit talking.

But they didn’t. They organized a sting operation to bait and unearth those who were receptive to a call to kidnap the governor.

I guess the moral of the story is: if you don’t want to end up in jail, don’t go along with batshit crazy kidnapping plots some drinking buddy proposes at a militia meeting. He might be an undercover Fed.

Easy to stay out of jail if you don’t help plan to kidnap a US governor.

Why do the Police need to "bait" and "unearth" anyone? When you aid in the "batshit crazy" plots...suggesting that they go even further...then you're not enforcing the laws...you're deliberately attempting to corrupt others just so you can arrest them. To my way of thinking that's a bigger crime than "drunken shit talking"!

 

[braalian]

You don't need to corrupt people in order to arrest them

Now, these guys may have been mostly hot air, but the government hardly “corrupted them”. They were talking about kidnapping various governors and blowing shit up long before the undercover Feds made their move.

I get that it’s entirely probable their threats were empty, but when you go around saying utterly insane shit about kidnapping people and blowing up houses….. which they *were* doing without any FBI encouragement……that’s gonna attract the attention of law enforcement…. play with fire, you’re gonna get burned.

 

[Oldestyle]

Now, these guys may have been mostly hot air, but the government hardly “corrupted them”. They were talking about kidnapping various governors and blowing shit up long before the undercover Feds made their move.

I get that it’s entirely probable their threats were empty, but when you go around saying utterly insane shit about kidnapping people and blowing up houses….. that’s gonna attract the attention of law enforcement…. play with fire, you’re gonna get burned.

If it's entirely probable that their threats were empty...then why didn't the FBI simply observe them to make SURE that was the case! Why did they feel the need to help plan an attack and then arrest those that they steered in that direction? That's wrong on SO many levels!

If I'm the judge in this case I'm throwing the entire thing out of court and giving the FBI a lecture about what REAL law enforcement consists of!

 

[Curried Goats]

If it's entirely probable that their threats were empty...then why didn't the FBI simply observe them to make SURE that was the case! Why did they feel the need to help plan an attack and then arrest those that they steered in that direction? That's wrong on SO many levels!

If I'm the judge in this case I'm throwing the entire thing out of court and giving the FBI a lecture about what REAL law enforcement consists of!

You think the FBI just has infinite time and resources to continually monitor every cosplaying commando, white supremacist group that's out the there? These boys were talking violent schemes and the FBI sussed out if they were were for real. Sad day for them and you apparently. Lol

 

[Oldestyle]

You think the FBI just has infinite time and resources to continually monitor every cosplaying commando, white supremacist group that's out the there? These boys were talking violent schemes and the FBI sussed out if they were were for real. Sad day for them and you apparently. Lol

How does the whole "sussing" thing work, Curried? Is that something they're taught at the FBI Academy?
People on the left think that the FBI has time to monitor angry parents at School Board meetings but not keep an eye on white supremacists? Kind of amusing...don't you think?

 

[PinktheFloyd88]

The FBI is completely untrustworthy. They have 0 credibility.

Yep I agree. If you are a psycho kidnapper then the FBI cannot be trusted.

 

[Lastamender]

Yep I agree. If you are a psycho kidnapper then the FBI cannot be trusted.

Especially when they created him.

 

[Curried Goats]

How does the whole "sussing" thing work, Curried? Is that something they're taught at the FBI Academy?
People on the left think that the FBI has time to monitor angry parents at School Board meetings but not keep an eye on white supremacists? Kind of amusing...don't you think?

The FBI isn't spying on angry parents either numb nuts.