Abortion as a right?

sitarro

Gold Member
Nov 17, 2003
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Here is a story that a friend sent to me, a little something to think about for all of you abortion fans.

A picture began circulating in November. It should be "The Picture of the Year," or perhaps, "Picture of the Decade." It won't be. In fact, unless you obtained a copy of the US paper which published it, you probably would never have seen it. The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander Armas, who is being operated on by surgeon named Joseph Bruner. The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed from his mother's womb. Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an obstetrics nurse in Atlanta. She knew of Dr. Bruner's rema rkable surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, he performs these special operations while the baby is still in the womb. During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section and makes a small incision to operate on the baby. As Dr. Bruner completed the surgery on Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed hand through the incision and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. Dr. Bruner was reported as saying that when his finger was grasped, it was the most emotional moment of his life, and that for an instant during the procedure he was just frozen, totally immobile. The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity. The editors titled the picture, "Hand of Hope." The text explaining the picture begins, "The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander Armas emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr. Joseph Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life." Little Samuel's mother said they "wept for days" when they saw the picture. She said, "The photo reminds us pregnancy isn't about disability or an illness, it's about a little person." Samuel was born in perfect health, the operation 100 percent successful. Now see the actual picture, and it is awesome... incredible.... and hey, pass it on. The world needs to see this one!
 
Quit dragging my heart around. :cry:

Some you keep forgetting that not everyone is Christian and adhers to Christian theology. Post posting like that is the same as posting photos of a soldier with body parts blown off as an argument against war.
Some believe life begins at conception.
Others believe life begins when a life form can exist on its own without human or medical intervention.
Others believe life begins at birth.
You can't force your ideals upon others.
 
Gabriella84 said:
Others believe life begins when a life form can exist on its own without human or medical intervention.

Carrying that argument out, logically, hospitals should be out of business...as should rest homes, etc...

:(

Believing life begins at conception isn't a matter of belief - it's a matter of science. Those who choose not to agree simply do so to make them feel less immoral.
 
Gabriella84 said:
Quit dragging my heart around. :cry:

Some you keep forgetting that not everyone is Christian and adhers to Christian theology. Post posting like that is the same as posting photos of a soldier with body parts blown off as an argument against war.
Some believe life begins at conception.
Others believe life begins when a life form can exist on its own without human or medical intervention.
Others believe life begins at birth.
You can't force your ideals upon others.

You certainly can when it's murder that is the subject, and it has nothing to do with Christianity but rather a secular view of humanity.......Do you possess any at all?? humanity that is?
 
Bonnie said:
You certainly can when it's murder that is the subject, and it has nothing to do with Christianity but rather a secular view of humanity.......Do you possess any at all?? humanity that is?

So why do life-precious conservative republicans believe so strongly in the death penalty? :boohoo:
 
Gabriella84 said:
So why do life-precious conservative republicans believe so strongly in the death penalty? :boohoo:

Before you get the usual responses, stop and think about the idiocy of the comparison.

Innocent life unable to protect one's self.

vs

Full grown human being capable of making the choice between right and wrong with no other help but chose wrong.

Now your answer will show me truly how lost a cause you are.
 
Gabriella84 said:
Quit dragging my heart around. :cry:

Some you keep forgetting that not everyone is Christian and adhers to Christian theology. Post posting like that is the same as posting photos of a soldier with body parts blown off as an argument against war.
Some believe life begins at conception.
Others believe life begins when a life form can exist on its own without human or medical intervention.
Others believe life begins at birth.
You can't force your ideals upon others.

Gabriella,
I'm not trying to force my opinion on anybody, I was given this story from a friend and felt it was incredible photographic proof of the human life in the womb.Both photographs are all the proof I need to say that what I see is not a thing or a fetus but a child, a human being. It is 2005, it shouldn't get to the point of an abortion to realize that you don't want a child. If boys and girls were taught to understand that from the earliest age maybe more precaution would be taken and this discussion wouldn't need to take place.
As for the death penalty. . . I would rather the person suffer in prison for the rest of their life with photographs of who they killed to haunt them. . .no parole.
 
Gabriella84 said:
So why do life-precious conservative republicans believe so strongly in the death penalty? :boohoo:

Nice try, the ol deflection of those who think criminals should pay for their crimes have no valid argument as to why innocent babies should be protected from being ripped apart and thrown away.... Come on Gabby you know better than that. And you know that's an invalid generalization. :poke:
 
Gabriella84 said:
So why do life-precious conservative republicans believe so strongly in the death penalty? :boohoo:

I will stop supporting the death penalty when "life in prison" means "life in prison."

I will stop supporting the death penalty when prison is a bad place to be; not 3 squares, basketball and computer time.

In 1998, two boys, 11 and 13, opened first at a middle school in Jonesboror, Arkansas. They planned and plotted this attack. Had plenty of weapons, staked out a position in the woods so they had clear shots at the meeting point everybody would be going to when a fire alarm was sounded. They had an accomplice inside the school to pull the fire alarm (false alarm).

Four girls and a teacher were killed and 11 people were wounded.

The 13 year old walks out of prison this Thursday because he turns 21 years old.

The 11 year old has two more years.

Records will be wiped clean. As of Thursday, the now 21 year old will have a squeaky clean criminal record.

And the people will still be dead.

I support the death penalty for this. Had they been sentenced to life in prison - no parole, then I would be all for that.
 
Gabriella84 said:
So why do life-precious conservative republicans believe so strongly in the death penalty? :boohoo:

That was already explained in another thread. There is a clear difference between the guilty and the innocent. The death penalty is reserved for those convicted of taking the right to life away from another in the most heinous of ways, abortion is reserved for the most innocent and dependant of human life...

To say there is no difference between one who has taken that right from another in such a heinous way and the most dependant and innocent among us is clearly misleading, disingenuous, and simply self-imposed ignorance because the argument was already made on another thread where every one of your questions was answered ad infinitum...

This is simply evidence that you impose an ignorance on yourself that is staggering to behold, because even when people speak of their opinions you simply do not read, listen, or take them into account in any way, just keep repeating the same tired legacy of questions and thus embarrassingly, for you (or at least it is embarrassing for us to watch), point out your own hypocrisy when attempting to do the same to others.

The hypocrisy of the left, they deny the validity of your beliefs, ignore your right to have them, attempt to shut you up when you express them (look up shouting down and college campus to see what I am talking about), and become intolerant of every other belief of their own to the detriment of their own argument, all while telling you to be tolerant.
 
How about this little guy Gabriella , would you be in favor of aborting him if the mother didn't want him? A new born giant panda .
 
Gabby,

Do you feel that a woman should be able to abort for any reason at any time throughout her pregnancy?
 
sitarro said:
Here is a story that a friend sent to me, a little something to think about for all of you abortion fans.

A picture began circulating in November. It should be "The Picture of the Year," or perhaps, "Picture of the Decade." It won't be. In fact, unless you obtained a copy of the US paper which published it, you probably would never have seen it. The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander Armas, who is being operated on by surgeon named Joseph Bruner. The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed from his mother's womb. Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an obstetrics nurse in Atlanta. She knew of Dr. Bruner's rema rkable surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, he performs these special operations while the baby is still in the womb. During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section and makes a small incision to operate on the baby. As Dr. Bruner completed the surgery on Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed hand through the incision and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. Dr. Bruner was reported as saying that when his finger was grasped, it was the most emotional moment of his life, and that for an instant during the procedure he was just frozen, totally immobile. The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity. The editors titled the picture, "Hand of Hope." The text explaining the picture begins, "The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander Armas emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr. Joseph Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life." Little Samuel's mother said they "wept for days" when they saw the picture. She said, "The photo reminds us pregnancy isn't about disability or an illness, it's about a little person." Samuel was born in perfect health, the operation 100 percent successful. Now see the actual picture, and it is awesome... incredible.... and hey, pass it on. The world needs to see this one!

Some people will believe anything. The fetus squeezed the docs finger after he put his finger in the fetus's hand. A great story about in-utero surgery though.

http://www.lava.net/~higak/chain/other/babysamuel.htm

But the surgery was successful. Photojournalist Michael Clancy, based in Nashville and hired by USA Today to cover the surgery, captured one point immediately following the main part of the surgery when Samuel's hand emerged through the one-inch slit in the uterus and appeared to grasp Dr. Bruner's hand. As Clancy described the moment:

As a doctor asked me what speed of film I was using, out of the corner of my eye I saw the uterus shake, but no one's hands were near it. It was shaking from within. Suddenly, an entire arm thrust out of the opening, then pulled back until just a little hand was showing. The doctor reached over and lifted the hand, which reacted and squeezed the doctor's finger. As if testing for strength, the doctor shook the tiny fist. Samuel held firm. I took the picture! Wow! It happened so fast that the nurse standing next to me asked, "What happened?" "The child reached out," I said. "Oh. They do that all the time," she responded.

For his part, Bruner told USA Today that the fetus was unaware of what was happening, saying that he saw the hand "sort of pop up in the incision," and he did the natural thing, which was to reach out and pick it up.
 
Great job of research Missile. I clicked on the photographer's name and read his side of the story, it is much more detailed. If he is telling the truth (dealing in photography with magazines myself, I don't doubt him) the story is even more amazing .He got screwed!
 
insein said:
Before you get the usual responses, stop and think about the idiocy of the comparison.

Innocent life unable to protect one's self.

vs

Full grown human being capable of making the choice between right and wrong with no other help but chose wrong.

Now your answer will show me truly how lost a cause you are.

I'm practically ant-abortion and anti-capital-punishment. If all people who are executed for having been convicted of a crime warranting capital punishment did commit the crime, I would support the death penalty. I would rather have 1 million convicts spend hard life in jail than execute a truly innocent person.
 
mattskramer said:
I'm practically ant-abortion and anti-capital-punishment. If all people who are executed for having been convicted of a crime warranting capital punishment did commit the crime, I would support the death penalty. I would rather have 1 million convicts spend hard life in jail than execute a truly innocent person.

And that's why I'm not 100% behind the death penalty. Still, Gabby keeps making that asinine comparison, and I keep saying that the difference is because at least pro-death penalty advocates fully admit that they are killing a living human being, while abortion advocates pretend it's nothing more than a tumor.
 
Hobbit said:
And that's why I'm not 100% behind the death penalty. Still, Gabby keeps making that asinine comparison, and I keep saying that the difference is because at least pro-death penalty advocates fully admit that they are killing a living human being, while abortion advocates pretend it's nothing more than a tumor.

This might be too much of a tangent to the subject of the thread. It may need its own thread but I just wanted to post this as a challenge/reply for Hobbit.

Check out these cases of Innocence:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109

Please look at those people's stories. Really look at their pictures and completely read their stories. Don't just glance over it to just brush it off. Look and think about each human being listed there. After you have done that, post again that you are 100 percent behind the death penalty if you can. I just don't think that you can honestly do it.

By the way, the average number of years between being sentenced to death and exoneration is over 9 years. Wow! Just imagine if you were waiting that long to be executed for a crime that you did not commit.
 

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