'Abortion' and religious strawmen

[Luissa]

The quickening was cited only because it, unlike missed periods and illness, was understood to mean only one thing. Luissa just argued that 'back in the day' abortion was condemned and a woman's 'right to kill' ceased the moment they were sure of pregnancy. So, not only have you mqade a moronic appeal to tradition, but you've made an appeal to a tradition that does not support your position


Thanks, Eots; I wasn't aware of those cases.

Have you ever been pregnant?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The quickening was cited only because it, unlike missed periods and illness, was understood to mean only one thing. Luissa just argued that 'back in the day' abortion was condemned and a woman's 'right to kill' ceased the moment they were sure of pregnancy. So, not only have you mqade a moronic appeal to tradition, but you've made an appeal to a tradition that does not support your position


Thanks, Eots; I wasn't aware of those cases.

Have you ever been pregnant?

What does that have to do with allowing women to legally kill their offspring?

 

[Luissa]

The quickening was cited only because it, unlike missed periods and illness, was understood to mean only one thing. Luissa just argued that 'back in the day' abortion was condemned and a woman's 'right to kill' ceased the moment they were sure of pregnancy. So, not only have you mqade a moronic appeal to tradition, but you've made an appeal to a tradition that does not support your position


Thanks, Eots; I wasn't aware of those cases.

Have you ever been pregnant?

What does that have to do with allowing women to legally kill their offspring?

We are talking about buttermilk not knowing anything about pregnancy.

 

[Luissa]

The quickening was cited only because it, unlike missed periods and illness, was understood to mean only one thing. Luissa just argued that 'back in the day' abortion was condemned and a woman's 'right to kill' ceased the moment they were sure of pregnancy. So, not only have you mqade a moronic appeal to tradition, but you've made an appeal to a tradition that does not support your position


Thanks, Eots; I wasn't aware of those cases.

Also I want to know where I argued that abortion was condemned?
I think I was stating that the quickening method probably more likely had to do with how far along a women was than with confirming a pregnancy. Kind of reminds of you have making late term abortion illegal?

 

[eots]

The quickening was cited only because it, unlike missed periods and illness, was understood to mean only one thing. Luissa just argued that 'back in the day' abortion was condemned and a woman's 'right to kill' ceased the moment they were sure of pregnancy. So, not only have you mqade a moronic appeal to tradition, but you've made an appeal to a tradition that does not support your position


Thanks, Eots; I wasn't aware of those cases.

Have you ever been pregnant?

no ..but I was once a fetus...

 

[Luissa]

The quickening was cited only because it, unlike missed periods and illness, was understood to mean only one thing. Luissa just argued that 'back in the day' abortion was condemned and a woman's 'right to kill' ceased the moment they were sure of pregnancy. So, not only have you mqade a moronic appeal to tradition, but you've made an appeal to a tradition that does not support your position


Thanks, Eots; I wasn't aware of those cases.

Have you ever been pregnant?

no ..but I was once a fetus...

and your mother probably knew you were there before the quickening stage. I knew I was pregnant before I took a test, there are more signs than just missing a period and illness just in the first month. With in the four to five months it takes for the baby to get large enough for you to feel it kick there are even more signs that you are pregnant.
The quickening method is a loop hole, women would not be charged with a crime until they felt the child or so called confirmation of pregnancy.

 

[eots]

The first known conviction for the "intention to abort" was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.2 Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.3 A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.4 Likewise, a 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.5
Facts About Abortion: U.S. Abortion History

any link..for this...fact


and by the way I knew the instant my sperm penatred my baby muthas egg...In my minds eye.. I saw the spark of life occur..and told her so...I shit you not

 

[Care4all]

The first known conviction for the "intention to abort" was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.2 Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.3 A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.4 Likewise, a 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.5
Facts About Abortion: U.S. Abortion History

any link..for this...fact


and by the way I knew the instant my sperm penatred my baby muthas egg...In my minds eye.. I saw the spark of life occur..and told her so...I shit you not

No woman has been prosecuted and convicted for having an abortion in America...even for abortions AFTER QUICKENING which were against the law back in the day of the case above that you posted.

Abortions in early pregnancy, took place via drugs gotten from their pharmacy, their town druggist...or midwives. After quickening, it was illegal and could be prosecuted, but no woman was ever convicted, mostly due to compassion for the woman, due to the excessive hormones and stress and the risk of dying with pregnancy. Even as laws were passed to make abortions illegal in early pregnancy in the 1800's, NO woman was ever prosecuted and convicted for it....makes me wonder why there even is a law when it was never enforced?

Many early abortions were done by married women that already had a handful or two hands full of children....they aborted because they had 8 children at home and could NOT take the chance of dying in delivery, leaving their children without a mother to take care of them....(there was no birth control)

Granted, pregnancy is not as dangerous today, but back then, it was the number one reason for death, in females.

Early Abortions were not made illegal in some states until the middle of the 19th century... backed by a strong evangelical movement, and backed by the AMA who were very jealous that they were not a part of the Abortion process and saw all the business the druggists and midwives got from aborting....

Connecticut was the first state to make abortions, early and after quickening, illegal.

This is what i have learned so far....

care

 

[Anguille]

either way, it's homicide

I suppose it is ....


.....in the fantastical Fascist state of JBeurkemistan.

 

[Anguille]

The first known conviction for the "intention to abort" was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.2 Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.3 A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.4 Likewise, a 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.5
Facts About Abortion: U.S. Abortion History

eots, you neglected to inform your reading public that the site you are quoting from is rabidly and fanatically anti choice.
Here's an excerpt from another page on that site:


"The Horrors of Hell and Abortion

No Christian should be indifferent to the destruction of hell or abortion.


Page Summary:

Abortion is a devastating reality. Christians around the world should be moved to action by it. Hell is an even more devastating reality, and what an utter inconsistency it would be to feel indignant about the holocaust of abortion, but not about the holocaust of sinners perishing in unbelief.


This is one of the daily readings in John Piper's devotional book, A Godword Life. It offers great perspective from a man who is grieved by all the lives being lost to abortion, and even more grieved by all the lives being lost to eternal destruction:
I am frustrated that I have only one life to live for Christ. This morning after breakfast I was again distressed, very distressed, at the thought of the thousands of unborn children that are legally crushed to death by sterile medical instruments. I lay down on my bed and stared at the ceiling. The immensity of the horror of bloody little legs and arms and heads dismembered and piled on a clinic mat returned again and again.

For three years Noël and I lived a few miles from Dachau, the concentration camp outside Munich, Germany. Today it is open to the public. There are pictures. It is only because there are pictures that we believe it happened. Without the photographic record there would be no belief. We walked through the terrible chambers. We walked through the oven rooms. We walked between the stacked bunks. But that is not real. They are like props. It didn’t really happen here in this very spot. Not really.

Then we saw the pictures. The pictures don’t lie. Everything can lie but the pictures. We can escape anything but the pictures. Worldwide indignation came from the pictures. Without the pictures it is unimaginable; it couldn’t have been like that. Or, yes, it could have, but I can’t come close to feeling what I should feel-not without the pictures."

Bringing an End to Abortion: The Horrors of Hell and Abortion

 

[Anguille]

The first known conviction for the "intention to abort" was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.2 Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.3 A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.4 Likewise, a 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.5
Facts About Abortion: U.S. Abortion History

any link..for this...fact


and by the way I knew the instant my sperm penatred my baby muthas egg...In my minds eye.. I saw the spark of life occur..and told her so...I shit you not

No woman has been prosecuted and convicted for having an abortion in America...even for abortions AFTER QUICKENING which were against the law back in the day of the case above that you posted.

Abortions in early pregnancy, took place via drugs gotten from their pharmacy, their town druggist...or midwives. After quickening, it was illegal and could be prosecuted, but no woman was ever convicted, mostly due to compassion for the woman, due to the excessive hormones and stress and the risk of dying with pregnancy. Even as laws were passed to make abortions illegal in early pregnancy in the 1800's, NO woman was ever prosecuted and convicted for it....makes me wonder why there even is a law when it was never enforced?

Many early abortions were done by married women that already had a handful or two hands full of children....they aborted because they had 8 children at home and could NOT take the chance of dying in delivery, leaving their children without a mother to take care of them....(there was no birth control)

Granted, pregnancy is not as dangerous today, but back then, it was the number one reason for death, in females.

Early Abortions were not made illegal in some states until the middle of the 19th century... backed by a strong evangelical movement, and backed by the AMA who were very jealous that they were not a part of the Abortion process and saw all the business the druggists and midwives got from aborting....

Connecticut was the first state to make abortions, early and after quickening, illegal.

This is what i have learned so far....

care

Thanks, Care. It's very useful to have some actual facts presented in this debate.

I am always surprised at how much the anti choicers feel the need to twist things around, call fetuses babies and claim women who abort are irresponsible sluts, distort history and medical fact, etc. If they are so right about the issue, why wouldn't being honest and sticking to the facts help their cause?

 

[Care4all]

The first known conviction for the "intention to abort" was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.2 Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.3 A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.4 Likewise, a 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.5
Facts About Abortion: U.S. Abortion History

any link..for this...fact


and by the way I knew the instant my sperm penatred my baby muthas egg...In my minds eye.. I saw the spark of life occur..and told her so...I shit you not

No woman has been prosecuted and convicted for having an abortion in America...even for abortions AFTER QUICKENING which were against the law back in the day of the case above that you posted.

Abortions in early pregnancy, took place via drugs gotten from their pharmacy, their town druggist...or midwives. After quickening, it was illegal and could be prosecuted, but no woman was ever convicted, mostly due to compassion for the woman, due to the excessive hormones and stress and the risk of dying with pregnancy. Even as laws were passed to make abortions illegal in early pregnancy in the 1800's, NO woman was ever prosecuted and convicted for it....makes me wonder why there even is a law when it was never enforced?

Many early abortions were done by married women that already had a handful or two hands full of children....they aborted because they had 8 children at home and could NOT take the chance of dying in delivery, leaving their children without a mother to take care of them....(there was no birth control)

Granted, pregnancy is not as dangerous today, but back then, it was the number one reason for death, in females.

Early Abortions were not made illegal in some states until the middle of the 19th century... backed by a strong evangelical movement, and backed by the AMA who were very jealous that they were not a part of the Abortion process and saw all the business the druggists and midwives got from aborting....

Connecticut was the first state to make abortions, early and after quickening, illegal.

This is what i have learned so far....

care

Thanks, Care. It's very useful to have some actual facts presented in this debate.

I am always surprised at how much the anti choicers feel the need to twist things around, call fetuses babies and claim women who abort are irresponsible sluts, distort history and medical fact, etc. If they are so right about the issue, why wouldn't being honest and sticking to the facts help their cause?

see anguille, i think the facts can help their cause as well, if they knew how to decipher and use them...as example, maybe abortion was only illegal after quickening because there were no such things as pregnancy tests or sonograms that could determine pregnancy in certainty early on? I don't know....but just saying, it could be? Or it could be they felt a fetus or embryo prior to this later period of gestation was not developed enough to be protected by the law? Again, i don't know....

you know i am conflicted on this issue...i seem like a yo yo, going back and forth on it....

I just think it is important to dispel the propaganda and get down to the root of the difference in sides in order for some compromise or real understanding of positions to take place....calling those murderers that have abortions or baby killers, or the developing fetus given full recognition as a born baby, or on the other side, saying the fetus is nothing but a meaningless glob of cells or not human are all things that are blatantly false in my opinion, and until we all back down a little on these kind of faux slams, the goal of reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies ends up on the sidelines.

care

 

[JBeukema]

]Have you ever been pregnant?

What does that have to do with allowing women to legally kill their offspring?[/quote]
It means she's out of propaganda and lies

either way, it's homicide

I suppose it is ....


.....in the fantastical Fascist state of JBeurkemistan.

Actually, it's homicide by definition, you idiot.

Noun

S: (n) homicide (the killing of a human being by another human being)

Princeton



once again we see the lies of the libertines and the desperate cries of 'fascism' from the idiot Left.

eots, you neglected to inform your reading public that the site you are quoting from is rabidly and fanatically anti choice.

So now you attempt to distract from the points made and attack the site's political affiliation because you are unable to refute it

[M]aybe abortion was only illegal after quickening because there were no such things as pregnancy tests or sonograms that could determine pregnancy in certainty early on

In other words.. 'what JB said'

 

[Anguille]

Have you ever been pregnant?

The day medical science makes it possible for men to get pregnant if they have sex {maybe after JBeukema has eugenicized the human race) will be the day the pro choice movement will see an enormous jump in membership.

 

[Anguille]

Bottom Line:

If fetus are humans with full human rights they also have human responsibilities. If a fetus is inhabiting the body of a woman without her consent it needs to vacate or be charged with trespassing and assault. The woman gets to say who can and cannot be inside her body. Otherwise it's rape.

 

[Care4all]

IN the legal definition of homicide....

The killing of one human being by another human being.

Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree.

English courts developed the body of Common Law on which U.S. jurisdictions initially relied in developing their homicide statutes. Early English common law divided homicide into two broad categories: felonious and non-felonious. Historically, the deliberate and premeditated killing of a person by another person was a felonious homicide and was classified as murder. Non-felonious homicide included justifiable homicide and excusable homicide. Although justifiable homicide was considered a crime, the offender often received a pardon. Excusable homicide was not considered a crime.

All homicides require the killing of a living person. In most states, the killing of a viable fetus is generally not considered a homicide unless the fetus is first born alive. In some states, however, this distinction is disregarded and the killing of an unborn viable fetus is classified as homicide. In other states, statutes separately classify the killing of a fetus as the crime of feticide.

Homicide legal definition of Homicide. Homicide synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

 

[JBeukema]

Bottom Line:

If fetus are humans with full human rights they also have human responsibilities. If a fetus is inhabiting the body of a woman without her consent it needs to vacate or be charged with trespassing and assault. The woman gets to say who can and cannot be inside her body. Otherwise it's rape.

This is the level of stupidity and thorough dishonesty we are dealing with, people...

 

[Anguille]

Bottom Line:

If fetus are humans with full human rights they also have human responsibilities. If a fetus is inhabiting the body of a woman without her consent it needs to vacate or be charged with trespassing and assault. The woman gets to say who can and cannot be inside her body. Otherwise it's rape.

This is the level of stupidity and thorough dishonesty we are dealing with, people...

So now you attempt to distract from the points made .... because you are unable to refute it

 

[JBeukema]

You made no points, you twit, and you never addressed mine

 

[eots]

The first known conviction for the "intention to abort" was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.2 Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.3 A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.4 Likewise, a 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.5
Facts About Abortion: U.S. Abortion History

eots, you neglected to inform your reading public that the site you are quoting from is rabidly and fanatically anti choice.
Here's an excerpt from another page on that site

:

what a a distortion of the truth..shameful..you qoute an entirely diffrent artical..from a completly diffrent person to intentional try to mislead

from the top page of the artical posted

For those who support abortion, there is a tendency to argue that it has always been widely practiced and broadly accepted. Those who oppose abortion, however, generally argue that its permissive and widespread use is a recent phenomena. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.


Abort73.com / Abortion Unfiltered abortion_facts/us_abortion_history