A Tale Of Two Autos....

[Bfgrn]

So.....you're a fraud?


You were....to put this in the mildest term....a prevaricator?


You weren't telling the truth when you claimed to believe in

1. individualism


2. free markets


3. limited constitutional government.


There could not be a more clear indication of the behavior of a Liberal.

And your strict doctrinaire could not be a more clear indication of the behavior of a conservative. It can only be accepted under your strict and narrow terms...no nuance, no rules, black or white, no qualifiers. Thank you for proving that you have a polarized mind.

You didn't tell the truth......ashamed?

I did tell the truth. If I didn't then it must mean that individualism is the right to trample the rights of others. And free markets means you can dump your waste to make more profit and leave that mess for others to clean up. And the Constitution was written as a weapon to oppress and suppress We, the People.

 

[westwall]

Where is there a natural gas or hydrogen filling station?
How come they are not around?
How come the free market has not invested in those?
What free market analyst advises their clients to put their investment dollars in those energy delivery systems?
What large industrial investment group invests in that?
Until Americans learn and listen exactly to what President Bush stated about American energy demand WE WILL continue to be a nation of energy guzzling dumbasses.
WE ARE A NATION ADDICTED TO OIL.
We are a lazy, stupid, dumbaass society that drives around in vehicles that get 9 mpg and believe that if we just continue to drill for oil then all is okay.
Fact is with exploration and capital outlays any and all domestic production would still have to be around a little less than $3 a gallon fof domestic drilling operations to make a profit.
Green is the future. Oil is great for the short term but natural gas and hydrogen vehicles will NEVER get to the showroom UNTIL the delivery system for those fuels is set in place FIRST.

Yes, let's go full EV. How many extra power plants are you willing to build to power all those vehicles? How are they going to be fueled? It takes on average 6 years to build one power plant. You would need to build at least 50 new plants to power the EV's. The EV's don't last as long as a regular oil powered vehicle and the battery packs are toxic as hell. Where are you going to put them?

How is the average poor person going to be able to pay for the increased cost of energy in your utopia? How is the average person going to pay for the food they eat when the energy prices soar to the point that food costs start to skyrocket so that you can take us off of that evil oil that just happens to cost around one third of the best priced "green" energy?

The devil is in the details. The details tell us that at the current tech level we are at, your schemes will bankrupt anyone who is not a millionaire. How do you reconcile that?

 

[Jarlaxle]

i just drove BMW's hybrid, too.

isn't it weird how the really extreme people on the right think there's something wrong with conservation?

it's kind of retarded.

You didn't read the thread, did you?

Note: the ROI for a hybrid JUST IS NOT THERE. The payback is in the 150,000 mile range even at $4/gallon.

A friend bought a Prius a few years ago. Paid right at 20K. 59 mpg.
Many others I know bought cars that cost more than 20K and get under 30 mpg.
Payback isn't there?

For a bit more than HALF the cost of a Prius, you can get a regular car that gets about 40MPG. (Honda Fit, Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, Ford Focus MPG, Chevy Cruze Eco) Nine grand buys a lot of gas, especially at 40MPG.

 

[Gadawg73]

Right. That mandate is unrealistic. There are so many exceptions.
It's all nonsense. Battery technology is not progressing. People are not interested in over priced golf carts on wheels.
Look, there are other technologies out there ( Natural gas, hydrogen) that are better more efficient and cheaper. Here's the problem, they are not politically palatable.
Why? Because any fuel which can be used in autos in lieu of oil, is loaded with political land mines.
Imagine natural gas at $2.80 per therm( 1000 cubic feet) supplanting oil at $98 per barrel( 42 gals) or gasoline at $2.90 per gallon...That is a cheap clean and highly available alternative. The oil companies and of course OPEC would have none of that.
If oil were not the main fuel used in the US for autos, the OPEC nations would fall into bankruptcy. The geo political turmoil would be catastrophic.
Oil companies are among the world's largest corporations. With a much smaller market ,those firms would struggle as well.
The above reasons are give light to the fact that all of these green energy schemes are a lot of nonsense.

No, there is no delivery system for that energy now.
How much capital would it cost to change over from gasoline to natural gas and/or hydrogen?
Who is going to front that capital? The oil companies?
NO.
WHO?

I call this the 'blockade' factor..
IN other words "we can't do that so we won't even look for ways to get it done".
Capital? From where? If the federal government was in on the project, you'd be spot on.
The problem is regulatory road blocks set by the federal government.
Otherwise there would already be private sector companies at least researching if not building the systems of delivery and point of sale.

No, I do not support taxpayer funds or the government in it.
That makes you wrong twice so far as you are an Ofer 2.
Try for three times and strike out once again.
There are no regulatory road blocks for investment dollars.
How hard is it to research buying land at intersections and setting up natural gas and hydrogen containers to put in vehicles?
The private sector has not spent a nickel investing because of the easy availability of at the spicket oil. Take a good look at consistent investment returns there.
Where is YOUR $$$ in the game? How much have YOU invested in it?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Where is there a natural gas or hydrogen filling station?
How come they are not around?
How come the free market has not invested in those?
What free market analyst advises their clients to put their investment dollars in those energy delivery systems?
What large industrial investment group invests in that?
Until Americans learn and listen exactly to what President Bush stated about American energy demand WE WILL continue to be a nation of energy guzzling dumbasses.
WE ARE A NATION ADDICTED TO OIL.
We are a lazy, stupid, dumbaass society that drives around in vehicles that get 9 mpg and believe that if we just continue to drill for oil then all is okay.
Fact is with exploration and capital outlays any and all domestic production would still have to be around a little less than $3 a gallon fof domestic drilling operations to make a profit.
Green is the future. Oil is great for the short term but natural gas and hydrogen vehicles will NEVER get to the showroom UNTIL the delivery system for those fuels is set in place FIRST.

The market for a CNG car might be there...if you have gas heat at home, you can fuel it there.

 

[Gadawg73]

You didn't read the thread, did you?

Note: the ROI for a hybrid JUST IS NOT THERE. The payback is in the 150,000 mile range even at $4/gallon.

A friend bought a Prius a few years ago. Paid right at 20K. 59 mpg.
Many others I know bought cars that cost more than 20K and get under 30 mpg.
Payback isn't there?

For a bit more than HALF the cost of a Prius, you can get a regular car that gets about 40MPG. (Honda Fit, Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, Ford Focus MPG, Chevy Cruze Eco) Nine grand buys a lot of gas, especially at 40MPG.

If you do ALL of your driving on the freeway without stopping you get 40 mpg.
And in traffic around town where 90% of your driving is you get 20-25.
At $3 a gallon you save 50% of fuel costs with that Prius.
Burn 1000 gallons a year with the other vehicles and you are talking $1500 savings a year. I keep my cars 15 years.
The future is not with fossil fuels. We will not run out anytime soon but we can do it better and will.

 

[Gadawg73]

You keep your cars 15 years it is like getting the car for 1/5 the price in fuel savings.

 

[Old Rocks]

Where is there a natural gas or hydrogen filling station?
How come they are not around?
How come the free market has not invested in those?
What free market analyst advises their clients to put their investment dollars in those energy delivery systems?
What large industrial investment group invests in that?
Until Americans learn and listen exactly to what President Bush stated about American energy demand WE WILL continue to be a nation of energy guzzling dumbasses.
WE ARE A NATION ADDICTED TO OIL.
We are a lazy, stupid, dumbaass society that drives around in vehicles that get 9 mpg and believe that if we just continue to drill for oil then all is okay.
Fact is with exploration and capital outlays any and all domestic production would still have to be around a little less than $3 a gallon fof domestic drilling operations to make a profit.
Green is the future. Oil is great for the short term but natural gas and hydrogen vehicles will NEVER get to the showroom UNTIL the delivery system for those fuels is set in place FIRST.

The market for a CNG car might be there...if you have gas heat at home, you can fuel it there.

If you invest in solar panels, you cannot only fuel your ev, or hybrid ev, but also power your home. A grid parrellel setup lets you both use the grid at night, and put all your excess power during the day on the grid at the time of highest electrical use. A win-win for all.

 

[Old Rocks]

Now I only went to two sites, and did not look at all they had to show this system. So I would bet there are less costly systems out there. This system in most states would easily power your home and your ev.

5,640-watt Gridtied Solar System with 24 Astronergy Solar Panels

Model: Wss, 5,640 Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie System
Brand: Wss, Fronius, Astronergy
Product Type: Gridtie Solar Systems

Item:

Price:

3600060

$8,630.00
Qty:

This Solar Sky Grid-tie System combines twenty-four 235-watt Astronergy modules and a Fronius USA IG Plus V Inverter to give your home or business 5,640 watts of solar power. Complete with extension cables, disconnects and a wiring diagram, you'll be ready to use the power from the sun in no time.

Why Buy a Grid-tie Power System from Wholesale Solar?
With the Solar Sky Astronergy Gridtie Systems, as with any solar power system from Wholesale Solar, a lot of the hard work has already been done. Drawing on almost 24 years of experience in the renewable energy field, Wholesale Solar chooses only Tier One Solar panels and UL listed components. The wiring diagram that comes with the system will save you time and money at installation time. The end result is a virtually maintenance free NEC compliant system with an expected life of over 30 years.


This system qualifies for a Federal Tax Credit of 30% of the installed cost. (If you're in a commercial, agricultural or industrial sector, you could opt to receive grant monies instead of a tax credit through the end of the year. Check out details here.) Financial incentives from your state, county, city and/or utility company range from $0.50 cents to $3 per watt. Find out what funding is available to you here.

 

[Old Rocks]

You keep your cars 15 years it is like getting the car for 1/5 the price in fuel savings.

Up until the last vehicle I bought, I routinely bought well kept cars with 100,000 miles on them, drove them reasonably, and gave them away when they had 250,000 or more miles on them. Paid 10 cents on the dollar for them at purchase.

The next vehicle I buy will probably be a new hybrid ev. The economics of them just makes sense. Expecially when considering the present price of solar systems.

 

[Gadawg73]

Where is there a natural gas or hydrogen filling station?
How come they are not around?
How come the free market has not invested in those?
What free market analyst advises their clients to put their investment dollars in those energy delivery systems?
What large industrial investment group invests in that?
Until Americans learn and listen exactly to what President Bush stated about American energy demand WE WILL continue to be a nation of energy guzzling dumbasses.
WE ARE A NATION ADDICTED TO OIL.
We are a lazy, stupid, dumbaass society that drives around in vehicles that get 9 mpg and believe that if we just continue to drill for oil then all is okay.
Fact is with exploration and capital outlays any and all domestic production would still have to be around a little less than $3 a gallon fof domestic drilling operations to make a profit.
Green is the future. Oil is great for the short term but natural gas and hydrogen vehicles will NEVER get to the showroom UNTIL the delivery system for those fuels is set in place FIRST.

Puullleeeeeezzzzzzzzzzeee!

Enough of that 'Green is the future' nonsense.....

There is every reason to believe that we have far more energy reserves than the government estimates.

a. The 2008 USGS assessment estimated 3.0 to 4.3 billion barrels of undiscovered, technically recoverable oil in the U.S. portion of the Bakken Formation, elevating it to a “world-class” accumulation. The estimate had a mean value of 3.65 billion barrels. The USGS routinely conducts updates to oil and gas assessments when significant new information is available, such as new understanding of a resource basin’s geology or when advances in technology occur for drilling and production…. The 2008 USGS assessment showed a 25-fold increase in the amount of technically recoverable oil as compared to the agency's 1995 estimate of 151 million barrels of oil. Bakken Formation Oil Assessment in North Dakota, Montana will be updated by U.S. Geological Survey


b. Oil giant BP says it has made a "giant" new oil discovery in its fields in the Gulf of Mexico…. BP said the discovery, amounting to more than three billion barrels, would "support the continuing growth of our deepwater Gulf of Mexico business into the second half of the next decade". BBC NEWS | Business | BP in 'giant' new oil discovery


c. According to the US Geological Survey, the Arctic sea floor has 13% of the world's undiscovered "conventional" oil reserves and 30% of undiscovered natural-gas reserves. Oil-Drilling Trade-Offs: Keystone for Alaska


d. The Marcellus Shale [Pennsylvania, Oho, New York] could be one of the USA's most promising natural gas ...that the Marcellus might contain more than 500 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. ... Marcellus Shale Gas: New Research Results Surprise Geologists!

Where did I claim we do NOT have plenty of energy reserves?
I clearly stated that the reason we foolishly rely so much on oil is BECAUSE IT IS AT THE SPICKET AND EASILY AVAILABLE.
Pay attention next time.
As usual, any discussion about real world business and economics is 20 feet over your head.
You have no business experience whatsoever and it shows. Those of us that invest hundreds of thousands of dollars at a time know how this works.
All you ever do is cut and paste.

 

[Gadawg73]

Where is there a natural gas or hydrogen filling station?
How come they are not around?
How come the free market has not invested in those?
What free market analyst advises their clients to put their investment dollars in those energy delivery systems?
What large industrial investment group invests in that?
Until Americans learn and listen exactly to what President Bush stated about American energy demand WE WILL continue to be a nation of energy guzzling dumbasses.
WE ARE A NATION ADDICTED TO OIL.
We are a lazy, stupid, dumbaass society that drives around in vehicles that get 9 mpg and believe that if we just continue to drill for oil then all is okay.
Fact is with exploration and capital outlays any and all domestic production would still have to be around a little less than $3 a gallon fof domestic drilling operations to make a profit.
Green is the future. Oil is great for the short term but natural gas and hydrogen vehicles will NEVER get to the showroom UNTIL the delivery system for those fuels is set in place FIRST.

Yes, let's go full EV. How many extra power plants are you willing to build to power all those vehicles? How are they going to be fueled? It takes on average 6 years to build one power plant. You would need to build at least 50 new plants to power the EV's. The EV's don't last as long as a regular oil powered vehicle and the battery packs are toxic as hell. Where are you going to put them?

How is the average poor person going to be able to pay for the increased cost of energy in your utopia? How is the average person going to pay for the food they eat when the energy prices soar to the point that food costs start to skyrocket so that you can take us off of that evil oil that just happens to cost around one third of the best priced "green" energy?

The devil is in the details. The details tell us that at the current tech level we are at, your schemes will bankrupt anyone who is not a millionaire. How do you reconcile that?

I would expect a post like that from PC and not you so let me appeal to your reason and common sense which I believe you have both.
Henry Ford failed 5 times and went broke each time. In the 1300s the Italians designed a wind driven vehicle and Da Vinci designed a clockwork tricycle with a differential mechanism in the rear wheel.
You are smart enough to know that this 1st generation electric battery platform is not going to be around long. Your cell phone has more computing power than the Satrun rocket and lunar module that landed on the moon.
Technology changes rapidly and you know it.
Steinway Piano Company set up the first manufacturing gas engines for Daimler Benz in the late 1800s. Why? Because of INNOVATION.
Ford sold his first cycle car for $200 in the late 1800s which is the equivalent of paying 25K now for a bike with a small engine on it. The Olds sold in 1900 for $700 and that is like paying $80K now.
Ransom Olds sold electric cars then also! In 1899 and 1900 electric cars outsold all others.
Never said it was going to be an overnight change like your doomsday scenario paints.
George Bush is right. We are a fat, lazy, wasting nation addicted to oil.
The future is in green energy. "Henry, no one will buy your cars and you will go broke a 6th time" the horse and buggy investors said as they laughed at him.
Just as the horse and buggy days vanished so will the energy guzzling combustible engine as the sole power train of autos.
Not anytime soon but in my lifetime.

 

[thereisnospoon]

And your strict doctrinaire could not be a more clear indication of the behavior of a conservative. It can only be accepted under your strict and narrow terms...no nuance, no rules, black or white, no qualifiers. Thank you for proving that you have a polarized mind.

You didn't tell the truth......ashamed?

I did tell the truth. If I didn't then it must mean that individualism is the right to trample the rights of others. And free markets means you can dump your waste to make more profit and leave that mess for others to clean up. And the Constitution was written as a weapon to oppress and suppress We, the People.

And the rights of groups cannot trample the rights of an individual.
Stop with the enviro wacko tree hugger bullshit.
The Constitution was written as a weapon?
You are on crack.
Stop trying to change the narrative.
Individualism is the opposite of groupism....
In the USA we celebrate the individual. We celebrate individual achievement. We root for the underdog. Liberals do not accept the concept of the individual. The left wants people categorized and lumped into groups. Then they want to cater to the lowest common denominator. Liberals do not acknowledge hard work as a means to succeed. They view this as unfair. It is unfair because not everyone has the same drive and intelligence to succeed. So liberals seek to punish those who make their lives better. Especially without the help of government.

 

[Bfgrn]

You didn't tell the truth......ashamed?

I did tell the truth. If I didn't then it must mean that individualism is the right to trample the rights of others. And free markets means you can dump your waste to make more profit and leave that mess for others to clean up. And the Constitution was written as a weapon to oppress and suppress We, the People.

And the rights of groups cannot trample the rights of an individual.
Stop with the enviro wacko tree hugger bullshit.
The Constitution was written as a weapon?
You are on crack.
Stop trying to change the narrative.
Individualism is the opposite of groupism....
In the USA we celebrate the individual. We celebrate individual achievement. We root for the underdog. Liberals do not accept the concept of the individual. The left wants people categorized and lumped into groups. Then they want to cater to the lowest common denominator. Liberals do not acknowledge hard work as a means to succeed. They view this as unfair. It is unfair because not everyone has the same drive and intelligence to succeed. So liberals seek to punish those who make their lives better. Especially without the help of government.

You summed up the right's ignorance in a few sentences.

thereisnospoon & friends...

We root for the underdog!!!

 

[Nova78]

Chevy Volt=

 

[midcan5]

When did Americans start their dislike of American made? What caused this change? Conservative hatred of made in America simply astounds me. It is easy to see the connection between unions and government and this dislike, but the inability to separate American ingenuity and work from their favorite bogeyman shows a real lack of knowledge of our history and the progress of the combination of business and government. Why do Americans on the right hate America today?

Just for instance consider the enormous and beneficial impact of the GI Bill? I used it for my education. Americans need to abandon the right wing negativism and get back to doing things and not simply labeling things as bad. "In 1929 Federal, state, and municipal governments accounted for about 8 percent of all economic activity in the United States. By the 1960s that figure was between 20 and 25 percent, far exceeding that in India, a socialist country. The National Science Foundation reckoned that federal funds were paying for 90 percent of research in aviation and space travel, 65 percent in electrical and electronic devices, 42 percent in Scientific Instruments, 31 percent in machinery, 28 percent in metal alloys, 24 percent in automobiles, and 20 percent in chemicals." William Manchester "The Glory and the Dream"


"The rise of conservative politics in postwar America is one of the great puzzles of American political history. For much of the period that followed the end of World War II, conservative ideas about the primacy of the free market, and the dangers of too-powerful labor unions, government regulation, and an activist, interventionist state seemed to have been thoroughly rejected by most intellectual and political elites. Scholars and politicians alike dismissed those who adhered to such faiths as a "radical right," for whom to quote the Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter politics "becomes an arena into which the wildest fancies are projected, the most paranoid suspicions, the most absurd superstitions, the most bizarre apocalyptic fantasies." How, then, did such ideas move from their marginal position in the middle years of the twentieth century to become the reigning politics of the country by the century's end?" Kim Phillips-Fein ('Invisible Hands')

 

[Nova78]

midcan5 says

A vote for Romney/Ryan is a vote against the fundamental idea of America, the right of the individual to lead their life privately without the government interfering.

You got it ass backwards fool....

 

[thereisnospoon]

I did tell the truth. If I didn't then it must mean that individualism is the right to trample the rights of others. And free markets means you can dump your waste to make more profit and leave that mess for others to clean up. And the Constitution was written as a weapon to oppress and suppress We, the People.

And the rights of groups cannot trample the rights of an individual.
Stop with the enviro wacko tree hugger bullshit.
The Constitution was written as a weapon?
You are on crack.
Stop trying to change the narrative.
Individualism is the opposite of groupism....
In the USA we celebrate the individual. We celebrate individual achievement. We root for the underdog. Liberals do not accept the concept of the individual. The left wants people categorized and lumped into groups. Then they want to cater to the lowest common denominator. Liberals do not acknowledge hard work as a means to succeed. They view this as unfair. It is unfair because not everyone has the same drive and intelligence to succeed. So liberals seek to punish those who make their lives better. Especially without the help of government.

You summed up the right's ignorance in a few sentences.

thereisnospoon & friends...

We root for the underdog!!!

Now you're just spewing lib talking points.
Yer done. Yer out.
You cannot deny liberalism's goals of creating groups for the purpose of pitting them against each other. This is what your side does. Creates conflict. While you and your cronies waltz away with the goodies under the cover of darkness.

 

[thereisnospoon]

When did Americans start their dislike of American made? What caused this change? Conservative hatred of made in America simply astounds me. It is easy to see the connection between unions and government and this dislike, but the inability to separate American ingenuity and work from their favorite bogeyman shows a real lack of knowledge of our history and the progress of the combination of business and government. Why do Americans on the right hate America today?

Just for instance consider the enormous and beneficial impact of the GI Bill? I used it for my education. Americans need to abandon the right wing negativism and get back to doing things and not simply labeling things as bad. "In 1929 Federal, state, and municipal governments accounted for about 8 percent of all economic activity in the United States. By the 1960s that figure was between 20 and 25 percent, far exceeding that in India, a socialist country. The National Science Foundation reckoned that federal funds were paying for 90 percent of research in aviation and space travel, 65 percent in electrical and electronic devices, 42 percent in Scientific Instruments, 31 percent in machinery, 28 percent in metal alloys, 24 percent in automobiles, and 20 percent in chemicals." William Manchester "The Glory and the Dream"


"The rise of conservative politics in postwar America is one of the great puzzles of American political history. For much of the period that followed the end of World War II, conservative ideas about the primacy of the free market, and the dangers of too-powerful labor unions, government regulation, and an activist, interventionist state seemed to have been thoroughly rejected by most intellectual and political elites. Scholars and politicians alike dismissed those who adhered to such faiths as a "radical right," for whom to quote the Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter politics "becomes an arena into which the wildest fancies are projected, the most paranoid suspicions, the most absurd superstitions, the most bizarre apocalyptic fantasies." How, then, did such ideas move from their marginal position in the middle years of the twentieth century to become the reigning politics of the country by the century's end?" Kim Phillips-Fein ('Invisible Hands')

Don't try this bullshit around here. Changing the subject is just another lib deflection.
You are an Obama sycophant. You know nothing about the guy. Yet, you worship him so much , you feel it necessary to display the Obama family portrait.
Dude, that is frightening.
I suppose it would be just fine if Obama's image was plastered on every wall of every building across the country....He's your elected King.

 

[thereisnospoon]

When did Americans start their dislike of American made? What caused this change? Conservative hatred of made in America simply astounds me. It is easy to see the connection between unions and government and this dislike, but the inability to separate American ingenuity and work from their favorite bogeyman shows a real lack of knowledge of our history and the progress of the combination of business and government. Why do Americans on the right hate America today?

Just for instance consider the enormous and beneficial impact of the GI Bill? I used it for my education. Americans need to abandon the right wing negativism and get back to doing things and not simply labeling things as bad. "In 1929 Federal, state, and municipal governments accounted for about 8 percent of all economic activity in the United States. By the 1960s that figure was between 20 and 25 percent, far exceeding that in India, a socialist country. The National Science Foundation reckoned that federal funds were paying for 90 percent of research in aviation and space travel, 65 percent in electrical and electronic devices, 42 percent in Scientific Instruments, 31 percent in machinery, 28 percent in metal alloys, 24 percent in automobiles, and 20 percent in chemicals." William Manchester "The Glory and the Dream"


"The rise of conservative politics in postwar America is one of the great puzzles of American political history. For much of the period that followed the end of World War II, conservative ideas about the primacy of the free market, and the dangers of too-powerful labor unions, government regulation, and an activist, interventionist state seemed to have been thoroughly rejected by most intellectual and political elites. Scholars and politicians alike dismissed those who adhered to such faiths as a "radical right," for whom to quote the Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter politics "becomes an arena into which the wildest fancies are projected, the most paranoid suspicions, the most absurd superstitions, the most bizarre apocalyptic fantasies." How, then, did such ideas move from their marginal position in the middle years of the twentieth century to become the reigning politics of the country by the century's end?" Kim Phillips-Fein ('Invisible Hands')

What percentage of the economy should be under government control?
Do you look forward to the complete destruction of the private sector?
Go ahead and answer the questions.
No deflections. No bullshit rants. No off subject chatter. Show some balls and answer honestly.