A moral quagmire

[Moi]

I'm not trying to be mean, but I just don't think we should be sending them aid money. I could be persuaded if it were proven that they gave us millions of dollars in aid during any of the disasters befalling this country: hurricanes, earthquakes, Sept. 11th, etc. Or, if they'd paid back all the money we spent on the hostage rescue/negotiations in the 1980's or other actions we've had to take against them.

Otherwise, I really don't care to send my money to them; I'd prefer to give to anyone of our American needy, say, the Appalachian or native American funds.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Iran

 

[Johnney]

That is true. we need to look in our own backyard first before extending a helping hand to others. there is no reason to be sending monies over seas to help with the homelss/ starving while we have the same thing here.

 

[nbdysfu]

qoute:
______________________________
A senior administration official said it was too early to say what form the aid might take. The Red Cross, the Iranian Red Crescent Society and the United Nations (news - web sites) are assessing damage, and the U.S. assistance will reflect what those organizations and what Tehran say Iran needs, the official said.
...
Last year, United States used the United Nations to channel $300,000 in humanitarian aid to Iran after a magnitude 6.1 million quake killed 245 people in the northwestern part of the country.
_____________________________ _________________

5,000 people died and 35,000 were injured in the quake, Moi.

So if we took the figures from the previous incident to figure out how much the US would contribute, it would be about six million by the number of caualties. Since the scale of the earth quake was much larger, there was probably also more damage to infrastructure and buildings with codes that are in no way up to california standards. If we were to additionally chip in in these areas, the figure most likely increases exponentially.

Likewise the cost to Iran is itself exponentially larger and such a disaster will not be easily forgotten. The figures are almost on par with the figures in the invasion of Iraq. Scenario one is the Iranian mullahs blame the scale of the disaster on the US, saying we are taking the world's focus away from Iran and putting it all on our 'blighted' effort to 'conquer' Iraq. Scenario two, humanitarian intervention on the part of the u.s., on the part of the american red-cross, especially in the shiite-iraqi exile portion of southern Iran where the quake happened, could do nothing but good. It might even get us some more brownie points from the people.

 

[Moi]

I don't think we should spend 300 cents on these people. And, I don't care about brownie points either. I care that people in my own country are in need of aid- I'd rather be working my fingers to the bone earning tax dollars for them, rather than Iranians.

If I could tell Pres. Bush what to do, I'd tell him to have Jordan and Saudi Arabia "funnel" some money to them!

 

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by Moi
I care that people in my own country are in need of aid- I'd rather be working my fingers to the bone earning tax dollars for them, rather than Iranians.
____________________ _______________________
I know, I'm just a sap who thinks that the american s.o.living needs to be shared in order to preserve our way of life. There are physical limits on how far a bubble can rise above the surface before it bursts.

Originally posted by Moi
If I could tell Pres. Bush what to do, I'd tell him to have Jordan and Saudi Arabia "funnel" some money to them!
___________________ _______________________
Perhaps the IGC?

 

[nbdysfu]

More than 20,000 killed as huge quake devastates Iranian city
Fri Dec 26, 4:17 PM ET



BAM, Iran (AFP) - More than 20,000 people were killed when a massive earthquake devastated Iran's historic southeastern fort city of Bam and its surrounding district, a source in the provincial governor's office said.

The source, speaking on condition of anonymity, added that 50,000 others were injured.


Earlier, the governor of Kerman province, in which Bam is located, put the toll at between 5,000 and 6,000, while state television had spoken of 30,000 injured.


The tremor, which struck before dawn as most of the area's residents were asleep, was met with a swift response from the international community pledging immediate and long-term aid.


Bam is built almost entirely of mud brick and is ill-equipped to withstand a big temblor, an AFP correspondent said.


The city had a population of 90,000 people, with the district home to some 200,000 residents.


Bereaved residents wandered the streets of Bam pleading for the authorities to speed up rescue efforts.


The city's two hospitals were destroyed in the earthquake, and while field hospitals were set up, they were overwhelmed by the magnitude of casualties.


"Seventeen of my relatives are buried under the ruins of my home, they've got to get a move on or all of them will die," said one resident, who gave his name only as Ali, as he attempted to shift the rubble with a spade.


"Why is help so slow in coming?" asked another survivor. "If we were in the West, all resources would have been mobilised.


Kerman Governor Mohammad Ali Karimi said: "One thing is sure: the historic quarter of Bam has been completely destroyed and many of our countrymen are underneath the ruins. The situation is very worrying."


Those concerns became more urgent as night fell and temperatures dropped.


Interior Minister Abdolvahed Mussavi-Lari said the top "priority is to get help to the injured who are under the rubble. It is very cold in the region, and we are very concerned" for them.


"Our second priority is to get the wounded to hospitals in the region," the minister said, adding that five military aircraft were shuttling between Bam and Kerman.


Iran's supreme leader Ali Khamenei conveyed his "heartfelt condolences to the noble Iranian nation and the bereaved families of the victims," state news agency IRNA reported.


"I pray to God for the fast recovery of the injured people and call the executive bodies to take immediate action in rendering aid to the needy people," he said.


President Mohammad Khatami (news - web sites) declared the earthquake a "national disaster which requires collective collaboration and cooperation of all executive and military organizations to mobilize all their facilities to help the victims."





More than 90 percent of the old city, one of the wonders of Iran's cultural heritage, was destroyed. Besides the flattened homes, the 2,000-year-old citadel, once the largest mud-brick structure in the world, was gone forever.

Around 4,000 people have been sent to hospital in the provincial capital, Kerman, some 175 kilometres (110 miles) to the northwest, said Assadollah Iranmanesh, a member of Karimi's staff.

State television said another 170 people had been airlifted to Tehran for treatment and that a similar number had been sent to the southwestern city of Shiraz.

A three-day period of mourning was declared, as authorities broadcast urgent appeals for blood donations, blankets, food and clothes.

Hundreds of people crowded into Tehran hospitals to give blood.

Iran also quickly appealed for international aid.

"We need sniffer dogs and detection equipment, blankets, medicines, food, but also prefabricated houses because winter is coming very quickly," an interior ministry statement said.

The United Nations (news - web sites) and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, together with European states, Middle Eastern countries and the United States, responded to the call for urgent aid.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan (news - web sites)'s office said the world body had granted an immediate emergency grant of 90,000 dollars for Iran.

For its part, the Red Cross is preparing an appeal for about 10 million Swiss francs (6.4 million euros, eight million dollars), a spokesman in Geneva said.

Roy Probert said the appeal would cover emergency supplies such as tents, blankets and possibly field hospitals.

He added that Red Cross societies in Europe were already "queuing up" with offers of help.

And the foreign ministry in Israel, which Iran considers to be one of its greatest enemies, announced that Israeli non-governmental organizations are "looking into offering their help."

The quake hit at 5:28 am (0158 GMT), some 1,000 kilometres (620 miles) southeast of the capital, with a magnitude of 6.3 degrees on the Richter scale, IRNA quoted the Tehran University Geophysics Centre as saying.

Several aftershocks were recorded, the most violent occurring at 6:36 am (0306 GMT), IRNA said.

The Strasbourg Observatory in France put the quake at 6.6 and said the temblor was the most powerful in the region since 1998.

The US Geological Survey National Earthquake Information Center in Virginia measured it at 6.7.

Telephone and radio communications with the city, as well as the towns of Giroft and Kohnuj, were cut off following the quake.

The government has set up a crisis centre in Kerman, dispatching five helicopters and two huge C-130 transport planes to the quake site, IRNA quoted deputy provincial governor Hossein Marachi as saying.

Earthquakes (news - web sites) are very frequent in Iran. Since 1991 nearly 1,000 of them have claimed some 17,600 lives and injured 53,000 people, according to official figures.

On August 27, a tremor of 5.7 jolted the Bam area, but caused no casualties.

The last major quake came in June 2002, when a tremor of 6.3 hit northwestern Iran, killing 235 people and injuring more than 1,300.
_______________________________

Every major nation in the world is pledging aid. Even Japan and Israel.

 

[Moi]

Again, I understand the devastation that the quake caused. Let the rest of the world play doctor this time, I say. We are fighting a war against terror and have people in our country unemployed, ininsured, uneducated and unprotected. Why should we waste money helping people who either don't do for us or would actually hurt us when we have just as many - even if you use the 90,000 figure - people here in this country who need financial assistance????????

 

[jon_forward]

until proven otherwise, those people are in a bad way and need help. The USA has and always will be one of if not the first to help. what I am saying is that these folks are humans not terrorist and why shouldnt they see firsthand what being an AMERICAN is all about. surewe have our problems here, hell I am almost homeless myself and very well may be on the streets but I dont have a house on top of me. I have a hospital I can go to. I know where my family is. and I have something to eat. our country will never be the perfect one but compared to the other choices where would you want to live?

 

[Annie]

I agree with you Jon. It's important that the US respond in times of need. We engender more goodwill through these gestures than through any other type of 'aid' given. Sort of like the GI's do, after the fighting giving out treats to the children. Bombs may stop the fighting temporarily, but it is goodwill that will keep the peace if possible.

 

[Moi]

Although I agree with everything you have both said about being humanitarian and engendering good will, I'd like a little good will myself. Why is it that I have to work 18 hours a day just to make a living for myself and my family? Why is it that almost half of my income is supporting other people while I cannot use that money to help myself and my future? I'm quite sure ya'll are sick of me saying it but I've been working and paying taxes for over 20 years and I'm only 36 years old. I don't take vacations nor do I drive an expensive car, wear designer duds or eat out every night. I'm not claiming that I am poverty stricken, but let's face it, I've had to dip into my retirement just to keep up with my mortgage payments, insurance and medical costs, food on the table, etc. And yet I don't get anything from the government nor did I when I worked two jobs to get through college and graduate school (without student loans or aid).

When my son applies to college and when I am too old to work, or in the extreme case, if I'm unemployed for a long period of time, where is my help taking care of my family going to come from?

The Iranians and the good will that we've built up around the world? Will the french or the africans send food? I don't think so. I'm honestly NOT being sarcastic. I just want to know when will it be the average american's turn to benefit from his/her hard work. Why is it my responsibility to people in other nations? They had an earthquake and for that I'm sorry. But the fact remains that the money being diverted there came from my hard work. I don't believe that I should be completely mute in its distribution.

 

[Annie]

Moi, boy do I hear you. I had a period of about 3 years, where I was working over 75 hours per week. I've been working since I was 14, with 13 years off raising my kids, to have the ex decide he was 'too young' to be saddled with kids.

Less taxes is what we need, but it's not foreign aid that is causing us to pay the rates we are. Work to end the pork barrell spending, work for the line item veto. That's where the waste is.

 

[DKSuddeth]

less taxes is great but lets face it, its not about the taxes when it comes down to it. How many people, like kathianne, are left single and raising kids? How many families are down to one working breadwinner because the other one is unable to work due to illness? Of these families that I mentioned, whats the average wage paid to these workers? Its not alot.

I busted my ass working for big companies like IBM and Verizon and was starting to make a good livable wage that would keep my wife healthy and us in a house. Now I'm making 2/3rds of what I was, still have no home, and I question the health benefits which will eat up half my paycheck in premiums. I'm doing side work just to keep my wifes medications up.

How much of the billions of dollars of international aid could end up helping the families who struggle on a daily basis to put food on the table? When its even suggested that we do something like that then we have to duck for the 'evil socialist' arguments.

I ask you this, if the US suffered a 9.0 quake on the new madrid fault that buried st louis under the new mississippi lake and lowered the gulf by 4 feet which caused immeasurable seafood industry damage what nations would come to our aid and with how much?

 

[Annie]

Again, I hear you. When I was working all those hours, 32 of them were at the big grocery chain, (union), just to get my medical insurance, which was very good. Through my own hard work, I have been able to buy a townhome and get my kids raised. 2 are in college, working and paying what is left over after subsidized loans and scholarship is applied.

I'm teaching now and working on my Master's. A couple days ago we were discussing immigrants and how hard it is to make it in this country. It is hard, but it can be done and even while struggling our quality of life is high. We just want so much.

The US has not been in a position where any disaster was beyond our nation's ability to care for it. Don't really know what would happen if it occurs, though if it did, the repercussions would be felt throughout the world.

 

[DKSuddeth]

I guess I'm just the cynical sort. It all feels like the carrot and the stick. I feel that I, along with many of my IT associates, got sold out to big business by our government.

 

[Moi]

I agree that there is a lot of waste in domestic spending. I'm a conservative, not a republican. I believe that the less the government supports people or takes from them, the better. But domestic waste doesn't excuse our paying millions, I bet billions, of dollars to people outside our country. Personally it's my opinion that it's ours to waste and I don't feel the least bit selfish by saying that. As much as I don't believe in the liberal way our government spends money, I will be the first to admit that I do believe these ill-conceived plots that waste our money are meant to help people here in our own country. I'd rather we continue with that than help people who don't live here.

Perhaps Iran and countries like it should have spent their money on hospitals and red cross type assistance rather than on anti-western propaganda and militarism. How can they possibly take hand outs from us all the while reviling us? Talk about hypocrisy!

I have the perfect solution:

How's about their leaders turn in the terrorists we're searching for, the WMD's they themselves have and all their military equipment and collect the reward money. They use every penny of it for the betterment of their own society???

I doubt their leaders would have the integrity.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I guess I'm just the cynical sort. It all feels like the carrot and the stick. I feel that I, along with many of my IT associates, got sold out to big business by our government.

I don't think you are cynical at all. I think you've just hit bad luck and feel powerless to do anything about it- rightly so. Even if for different reasons, I feel the same way when I wake up in the morning, leave my kid and go to work so that I can put food on the table. Meanwhile, as I take the train to work I pass thousands of people who don't get up and go to work yet they have food, clothing and shelter; their kids have video games and $200 pairs of shoes; they take drugs or drink alcohol; and get free medical treatment, etc. all from the money the government takes out of my pocket and away from my son.

 

[acludem]

I think the U.S. should definitely provide aid here, but do it through NGOs like International Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, etc. These groups know best how to get the aid where it needs to go and how to help people in these situations. This shows the infrastructure difference between the U.S. and Iran. California had a quake of similar magnitude recently and it did little damage and only a few people died. Iran has an entire city leveled and thousands of lives are lost.

 

[Annie]

Considering what the IROC and Drs. w/o Borders have been saying, I will leave it up to the State Dept. or DOD to decide how to distribute our aid.

Do you really think the difference was infrastructure and not some larger conspiracy against Islam? Many dems seem to think the later.

 

[nbdysfu]

It's not just infrastructural difference, it's actually about difference in building standards. That's why when we just recently had an earthquake in Cali of similar magnitude, the deaths were not in the thousands. Most building designs in california go through tests to determine if they can withstand an earthquake or at least stand long enough to evacuate. These regulations become more stringent the more public or populated the building is, or the more high-risk the area is. Since Iran has a history of quakes, and the only two hospitals in the area were destroyed in the quake, along with entire districts of buildings, I would say their standards are severely behind.

 

[nbdysfu]

**why isn't there a quick response from the west?**

U.S. Rescue Teams, Doctors Head to Iran
6 minutes ago

By ANDREW BRIDGES, Associated Press Writer

MARCH AIR RESERVE BASE, Calif. - U.S. physicians and a rescue crew trained to search for survivors amid the wreckage of terrorist attacks and natural disasters headed to Iran on Saturday to help in the aftermath of a devastating earthquake.

The 73 members of Virginia Task Force One left late Saturday afternoon from Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, but their plane returned about an hour later after smoke was detected in the cargo area. A base spokesman said no problems were found, and the plane was to leave later Saturday night.


Sixty doctors and other medical experts from the Boston area, known as the International Medical Surgical Response Team, departed from Westover Joint Air Reserve Base in Chicopee, Mass. They were scheduled to arrive in Iran on Sunday.


The 71-member California Task Force Two, comprised primarily of Los Angeles County firefighters, had been set to leave as well but was placed on 24-hour standby, said U.S. Air Force Staff Sgt. Carlos Arispe.


National Security Council officials decided to delay the flight after Iranian officials said they did not need additional rescue assistance, said Los Angeles County fire Battalion Chief Terry DeJournett.


The California team included hazardous materials experts, paramedics, five search and rescue dogs and their handlers, and one medical doctor, said Los Angeles County fire Capt. Gil Sanchez.

...

Virginia Task Force One, based in Fairfax County, has helped earthquake victims in Turkey, Taiwan, Kenya, Mexico and Armenia, and its members assisted in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the Pentagon (news - web sites).


The California team, based in Los Angeles, also helped search for survivors in the wreckage of the Pentagon and World Trade Center in 2001, and responded to the 1994 Northridge earthquake and 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. The Iran earthquake was to be its first overseas assignment, said Inspector Roland Sprewell of the Los Angeles County Fire Department.


The two groups are among only three urban search-and-rescue task forces in the United States that are trained and certified for overseas disaster deployment. The other is in Florida.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...8/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_earthquake_firefighters