A gun made for women? European women don't bother watching, you aren't allowed to protect yourselves anyway....

[M14 Shooter]

True, nothing I say can convince closed minds, or anyone suffering from cognitive dissonance.

That's a strange way of admitting your "proof" will not convince the rational and reasoned, but OK.
Concession accepted.

Ah, so you want me to provide a confounder....Sadly I neither have the time, nor if truth be told the inclination to perform such a statistical feat of gymnastics.

Yes. I want you to prove your claim beyond correlation, because, as you know, correlation does not prove causation.
And, as we see, you know you cannot;.
As always.
Concession accepted.

 

[westwall]

Then you would be well aware of the French laws on self defence:
Article 122-5 of the Penal Code says "a person who, faced with an unjustified attack on themselves or a third person, simultaneously commits an act necessary to legitimate defence, shall incur no criminal liability except where the means employed are disproportionate to the seriousness of the attack." What is the law on self-defence?

You would also know what forms of self defence are allowed: What are the defensive weapons authorized in France?

The situation is very similar in Germany:
German law permits self-defense against an unlawful attack. If there is no other possibility for defense, it is generally allowed to use even deadly force without a duty to retreat. However, there must not be an extreme imbalance ("extremes Missverhältnis") between the defended right and the chosen method of defense.
Here's a useful article: German Self-Defence Law | Iain Abernethy

Yeah, we are. And there are 130 dead Parisians because they weren't allowed to have guns to defend themselves when those four assholes went on their shooting rampage.

DURRRRRR

 

[Blues Man]

True, nothing I say can convince closed minds, or anyone suffering from cognitive dissonance. I, and many millions like me feel safer living in a society with effective gun control. I can walk about unarmed and not have a constant fear that someone at my local pub, will not take offence at a chance remark and start shooting, or not like the way their hamburger was cooked and start shooting the staff, or having a family argument spiral out of control and start shooting each other, or being so frightened of being burgled, that I'd shoot my wife or daughter, returning late from work or a party. All of the aforementioned are fairly common occurrences in America.

Ah, so you want me to provide a confounder. Interesting. I suppose you are aware of perhaps the most well known and important example of a correlation being clear but causation being in doubt? Smoking and lung cancer in the 1950's, where it was found that the rate of lung cancer had increased dramatically in the proceeding decades. Nobody at the time disputed that there was a correlation between lung cancer and smoking, but to prove that one caused the other would be no mean feat. It took a study involving more than 40,000 doctors in the UK 6 years to show conclusively that smoking really does cause cancer!

Sadly I neither have the time, nor if truth be told the inclination to perform such a statistical feat of gymnastics. I will maintain however that a well regulated system of firearms control significantly reduces the number of shootings that would otherwise occur without such control.

Making up stuff isn't the sign of an open mind.

I have had a carry license for over 30 years. In those 30 years I have been in too many bars to remember and never once has anyone ever pulled a gun in any place I have ever gone.

I have been in a few auto accidents and while some people went into full road rage mode I have never once had a gun pulled on me.

I have been in movie theaters, concerts, and every other type of crowd you can think of and never once has anyone been murdered by a person with a gun in any of those places.

The average American has a .006% chance of being murdered by a person using a gun.

You foreigners just don't know the reality of crime in the US. We know that 70-80% of all murders with or without a gun occur in a literal handful of the poorest parts of the country's major cities.

The murder rate in these very small very well defined neighborhoods is so high that they skew the numbers for the entire country.

Your little island is literally the size of the state of Michigan jam packed with almost 70 million people. You just can't relate to the amount of space we Americans enjoy

 

[M14 Shooter]

You foreigners just don't know the reality of crime in the US. We know that 70-80% of all murders with or without a gun occur in a literal handful of the poorest parts of the country's major cities.

And the majority of murders are committed by a specific demographic, against a specific demographic.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/htius.pdf

 

[2aguy]

And the majority of murders are committed by a specific demographic, against a specific demographic.

Which is a point the European anti-gun fanatics will never understand.....

In the U.S., the vast majority of gun owners are white Americans......the vast majority of gun criminals are young black males....from the age 15 up. If guns were the problem, and not culture, as created by the democrat party in the cities they control, crime would be far more spread around the country, and whites, with more guns, would be shooting a lot more people........

This isn't a racial issue...this is an issue of a political party, the democrat party, and their policies, directly impacting a minority population that lives under the political control of the democrat party....the cities with the worst outcomes for minorities in all categories are under total democrat party control.......and the generational poverty and crime is created by fatherless homes...created by democrat party social welfare policies, namely "The Great Society," created by the democrats...

 

[Blues Man]

And the majority of murders are committed by a specific demographic, against a specific demographic.

View attachment 698448
View attachment 698449
View attachment 698451

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/htius.pdf

I don't care about skin color

 

[M14 Shooter]

I don't care about skin color

Maybe not - but the numbers tell the story.

 

[Vagabond63]

Making up stuff isn't the sign of an open mind.

True, gun crazies make things up all the time.
Here's a post from another 2aguy thread, hopefully the links still work that describe apparently commonplace incidents throughout America. I'm sure a Google search can come up with more.

Lengthy prison term imposed in shooting case linked to stolen beanie

In the UK, no one involved would have been shot over an argument about a hat, of all things. But hey, that’s what happens if everyone has a gun…

Shooting spree in Denver and Lakewood leaves five dead including shooter; officer wounded

To be fair, something like this happens once every decade or so, always with legally owned firearms, unlike in the USA where you seem to get such incidents every week.

2 Men Killed In Shooting Outside Club Risqué In Philadelphia's Wissinoming Section, Police Say

Well, punch ups outside nightclubs are a relatively common event at weekends here in the UK, but no one ever gets shot.

Daughters injured in quadruple shooting that left mom dead say they want justice

Oh dear, another “responsible” gun owner gets upset.

'A crime of opportunity': More guns than ever were stolen from vehicles in Nashville in 2021

More “responsible” gun owners behaving irresponsibly; and that’s only in one city. We could do a Lott or Kleck and extrapolate these numbers across the USA which would give us between 402,880 and 24,544,205 guns stolen from responsible gun owners in the US in 2021. Wow, so many irresponsible “responsible” gun owners! Of course, we also need to look at thefts from homes and gun stores…

New York personal trainer arrested and accused of shooting his parents on Christmas


California man accused of fatally shooting his grandmother, father's girlfriend on Christmas

Oh dear, family arguments at Christmas, we have lots of those in the UK every year, but no one gets shot, I wonder why?

911 caller says husband shot 16-year-old daughter because he thought she was an intruder

Oh dear, that’ll teach her to come home late.

No fries with that: Ogden man charged in gun threat at fast-food drive-up

Oh dear, in the UK we occasionally can’t make up our minds what to order, but it’s never life threatening.

Employee Charged With Murder After Shooting Suspected Thief: Police

But, but, it’s a “good guy” with a gun… a “responsible” gun owner, at least he was until he opened fire. This is what can happen if you give guns to everybody.

Shotgun expert 'only wanted to scare son-in-law'

Oh, those fathers-in-law! Another “responsible gun owner” behaving irresponsibly.

Police: Pregnant librarian killed in alleged road rage shooting was aggressor

Aggressor or not, this wouldn’t have happened in the UK, because guns aren’t so easy to get hold of.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article256082512.html

In the UK working in a Pizza restaurant isn’t normally a life threatening experience… unless the joint has a low hygiene rating.

This is just a quick trawl through the internet involving “responsible” American gun owners, “good guys with guns” as the NRA calls them. I suspect I could find a lot more if I can be bothered.

If you want to own a gun, fine by me. If you want everyone to own a gun in America, that’s also fine by me. It’s your country after all. But please, stop trying to tell me banning handguns hasn’t worked over here, because I can get involved in an argument, buy a pizza, go for a walk, even have a fight, with absolute certainty that I won’t get shot.

 

[M14 Shooter]

True, gun crazies make things up all the time.

Says he who can only offer post hoc fallacies to support his positions.

 

[Vagabond63]

Yeah, we are. And there are 130 dead Parisians because they weren't allowed to have guns to defend themselves when those four assholes went on their shooting rampage.

DURRRRRR

Oh, OK, a well planned terrorist attack can be prevented by a granny with a gun, eh? Fun fact,

"With nearly 20 guns for every 100 people, the French rank high on the European gun ownership ranking. What’s more, it is relatively straightforward to obtain a gun license in France. You simply need to tick these boxes;

• Be older than 18 (or over 12 with permission for shooting sports);
• Be affiliated with a shooting range;
• Have followed at least three shooting sessions with an instructor;
• Submit a medical certificate stating you are physically and mentally fit"

10 Countries With The Easiest Gun Laws In The World

Owning guns is getting tough these days. If you're getting out of the U.S., here are the 10 countries with the easiest gun laws.

www.liveandinvestoverseas.com

 

[M14 Shooter]

Oh, OK, a well planned terrorist attack can be prevented by a granny with a gun, eh? Fun fact,

"With nearly 20 guns for every 100 people, the French rank high on the European gun ownership ranking. What’s more, it is relatively straightforward to obtain a gun license in France. You simply need to tick these boxes;

• Be older than 18 (or over 12 with permission for shooting sports);
• Be affiliated with a shooting range;
• Have followed at least three shooting sessions with an instructor;
• Submit a medical certificate stating you are physically and mentally fit

Pretty lax.
Why is it again gun-related violent crime is so much lower in France than it is here?

 

[Vagabond63]

Maybe not - but the numbers tell the story.

So do mine, so don't you have to prove the necessary relationship? As you are so fond of spouting, correlation does not prove causation...

 

[Vagabond63]

Here's a study that backs up my position

Harvard Injury Control Research Center | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

The Center aims to reduce the societal burden of injury and violence through surveillance, research, intervention, evaluation, outreach, and training.

www.hsph.harvard.edu

 

[Vagabond63]

Here's another.

"The use of a gun greatly increases the odds that violence will lead to a fatality: This problem calls for urgent action. Firearm prohibitions for high-risk groups — domestic violence offenders, persons convicted of violent misdemeanor crimes, and individuals with mental illness who have been adjudicated as being a threat to themselves or to others — have been shown to reduce violence. The licensing of handgun purchasers, background check requirements for all gun sales, and close oversight of retail gun sellers can reduce the diversion of guns to criminals. Reducing the incidence of gun violence will require interventions through multiple systems, including legal, public health, public safety, community, and health. Increasing the availability of data and funding will help inform and evaluate policies designed to reduce gun violence."

https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/gun-violence-prevention

 

[M14 Shooter]

So do mine,

You can only offer a post hoc fallacy as a "proof" of your claim - thus, your numbers don't tell anything other than there is a difference between A and B.

so don't you have to prove the necessary relationship? As you are so fond of spouting, correlation does not prove causation...

I didn't claim causation, sport. Pay attention.

 

[Vagabond63]

Looks like Scientific American agrees with me,
"As we previously reported, in 2015, assaults with a firearm were 6.8 times more common in states that had the most guns, compared to the least. More than a dozen studies have revealed that if you had a gun at home, you were twice as likely to be killed as someone who didn’t. Research from the Harvard School of Public Health tells us that states with higher gun ownership levels have higher rates of homicide. Data even tells us that where gun shops or gun dealers open for business, killings go up. These are but a few of the studies that show the exact opposite of what progun politicians are saying. The science must not be ignored."

The Science Is Clear: Gun Control Saves Lives

By enacting simple laws that make guns safer and harder to get, we can prevent killings like the ones in Uvalde and Buffalo

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Vagabond63]

And a cat amongst the pigeons...

FACT SHEET: California’s Gun Safety Policies Save Lives, Provide Model for a Nation Seeking Solutions | Governor of California

SACRAMENTO – With the country still reeling from the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas that left 19 children and two teachers dead last week, California’s nation-leading record on gun safety provides a…

www.gov.ca.gov

 

[Vagabond63]

Why is it again gun-related violent crime is so much lower in France than it is here?

Maybe the French are more civilised.

 

[Vagabond63]

Maybe not - but the numbers tell the story.

What story?

 

[Vagabond63]

You can only offer a post hoc fallacy as a "proof" of your claim

I disagree, but I've made my case and I'll leave it to the more rational gun owners out there, to decide for themselves. (66% of American gun owners already want stricter gun control, fun fact.)

Wonder how many smokers denied the statistics because they thought everything was a post hoc fallacy?