A few questions so I will know who I'm dealing with...

[HistoryBefore67]

"...Of course that is not true. There were many Christians and Jews living in Jerusalem and other places in Palestine. The Zionist invasion caused the displacement of many people of all faiths."

You missed the point entirely, Tinny.

I said nothing about multiple ethnic and religious groups residing in Jerusalem.

I was talking about various ethnic and religious groups controlling Jerusalem.

Big difference.

And my contention that multiple groups have controlled Jerusalem over time is entirely true and accurate.

You are missing the point.

Muslims, Christians and Jews had lived there for centuries.

It was not until the Zionists came along to pig the place for themselves that it was turned up side down displacing many people.

That's simply not true. Jews have been displaced from Jerusalem throughout history, including during the period between 1948-1967.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You missed the point entirely, Tinny.

I said nothing about multiple ethnic and religious groups residing in Jerusalem.

I was talking about various ethnic and religious groups controlling Jerusalem.

Big difference.

And my contention that multiple groups have controlled Jerusalem over time is entirely true and accurate.

You are missing the point.

Muslims, Christians and Jews had lived there for centuries.

It was not until the Zionists came along to pig the place for themselves that it was turned up side down displacing many people.

That's simply not true. Jews have been displaced from Jerusalem throughout history, including during the period between 1948-1967.

including during the period between 1948-1967.

That is what I said.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

No, you said that things were turned upside down and people started being displaced when "the Zionists came along." That is false.

 

[Caroljo]

sure you can... You'll just probably find that i agree with you.

this is directed primarily to the anti-israel/pro-"palestinian" posters...

1. Do you believe that there should be a jewish state of israel?

yes

2. The old city of jerusalem should be under (a) israeli control; (b) jordanian control; (c) palestinian control; or (d) international control?

(a) israeli control

3. Do you believe that a viable "2 state solution" can include a "palestinian right of return" to israel?

no

4. Rocket fire from gaza into israel constitutes (a) terrorist activity, or (b) legitimate resistence.

(a) terrorist activity

5. Do you believe that the majority of those who consider themselves "palestinians" support a "two-state solution" resulting in a peaceful coexistence with a jewish state of israel?

no

^^^^ditto^^^^^

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What "foreign intervention?"

No matter how well intended, the Regional Arab Community seriously mauled the mandatories to the point that no one really wants anything to do with them.

Indeed, and it was their right to act against foreign intervention.

(QUESTION)

Who intervened and when?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, you said that things were turned upside down and people started being displaced when "the Zionists came along." That is false.

If you look at the time around 1917 that is when the place started to turn to crap.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What "foreign intervention?"

No matter how well intended, the Regional Arab Community seriously mauled the mandatories to the point that no one really wants anything to do with them.

Indeed, and it was their right to act against foreign intervention.

(QUESTION)

Who intervened and when?

Most Respectfully,
R

Those foreigners were in Palestine doing what?

 

[patrickcaturday]

Its time for my self-evaluation.

As a new member of this forum, I started this thread to determine the general range of mindsets among the various posters here. I hoped that my questions would reveal these mindsets, not only by virtue of the specific responses, but also in terms of who would get their feathers ruffled by my questions and subsequent comments. My hope was to gain an understanding of which posters are pro-Israel, which are anti-Israel, and which are somewhere in the middle.

Based on the results, I give myself and A+ for this thread.

Thanks for the responses!

I guess that I should not be surprised but I ruefully have to admit that I am. The Zionists I have known seem to have a cultural trait of arrogance, but you have turned it into an art form. All you have proven to me is that you have megalomaniac tendencies well I guess everyone has a right to their own opinions but all I will say is you have not impressed me.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

The Zionists I have known seem to have a cultural trait of arrogance, but you have turned it into an art form.

Thanks!

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

There are all kinds of people, today's Palestinians call foreigners.

P F Tinmore, et al,

What "foreign intervention?"

Indeed, and it was their right to act against foreign intervention.

(QUESTION)

Who intervened and when?

Most Respectfully,
R

Those foreigners were in Palestine doing what?

(COMMENT)

If you are talking about Jewish Immigrants, then they are not true foreigners. All throughout the Ottoman Empire, a succession of Sultans encouraged Jewish Immigration. The Administrative Territory of Palestine was considered their home. But there was no restriction on the Immigration. In fact, as late as 1870, the Sultan Abdul Aziz allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs." (Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects).

By 1919, Emir Faisal, extended an open invitation for unrestricted immigration into the region of Palestine. The Jews were not true foreigners, but under Arab royal decree to immigrate, under Ottoman sanction. This actual language was copied verbatim into the Mandate, pursuant to the Covenant and Agreement of the Arab Emir.

As for the Allied Powers, the territory was Ottoman, and under the provisions of Article 132, Treaty of Sevres (1920), Turkey (successor to the Ottomans) "renounces in favour of the Principal Allied Powers all rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories outside Europe which are not otherwise disposed of by the present Treaty." So, the Allied Powers were not foreigners. And Article 95, of the treaty says: "The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." With the Arab Emir agreeing to the commission to survey.

So I ask again, who are you declaring as foreigners? From 1492, when Sultan Bayezid II accepted the exiled Jews from Italy, Spain and Portugal, and when Sultan Abdulhamid is making plans for installing 200,000 Jewish immigrants from Russia in the south east (AKA: Palestine), and then Arab Emir invitation decree, and then the Treaty which places Palestine in the hands of the Allied Powers, when did the "foreigners" arrive.

What foreigners?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[HistoryBefore67]

No, you said that things were turned upside down and people started being displaced when "the Zionists came along." That is false.

If you look at the time around 1917 that is when the place started to turn to crap.

Clearly, you've never been to Israel.

The Zionists have turned crap into a garden.

 

[toastman]

No, you said that things were turned upside down and people started being displaced when "the Zionists came along." That is false.

If you look at the time around 1917 that is when the place started to turn to crap.

Clearly, you've never been to Israel.

The Zionists have turned crap into a garden.

Anything the Jews touch turns to gold

 

[Intense]

You can take that a step further and also conclude that the anti Israel posters are usually the worst Jew haters. Therefore proving that anti Zionism is the new anti semitism.

There are Jews that are Anti-Zionist Roudy.
It's not that simple.

Does Israel have a Right to exist?
If it puts God first, establishes and serves Justice, by all means.

Does Palestine have a Right to Exist? If it puts God first, establishes and serves Justice. Yes. Can it do that while denying Israel's right to exist and live in peace? Not at all.

What is the foundation community is built on? What is your reaction to being treated fairly and honestly, as opposed to being cheated or scammed, or exploited? Value for value. What kind of seeds you plant, they are going to mature.

As Believers, is the foundation, God first in all things, regardless of the brand? What does that promote? It is not about getting the World to choose sides. It is about atonement across the board. Just a thought.

You are confusing anti Zionism with being critical of Israel. Do you understand what is the definition of anti Zionism? Zionism is simply the right for the Jewish people to exist in the land that is central to their faith and which their ancestors lived in. So one cannot be an "anti Zionist" and then say I believe that Israel has the right to exist. There are many Americans that are critical of the USA and its policies, including myself, does that make me anti American? However, not surprisingly you will find that most anti zionists happen to also be anti American.

Israel is a democracy by all standards, and has proven that it is for justice and peace and willing to make sacrifices to establish peace, as it has done in the past with Jordan and Egypt. Unfortunately the Palestinians as they say "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" and have shown many times that all they are interested in is the total destruction of the Israeli state to be replaced by an Islamic Palestinian Kalifate. That of course will never happen.

No I'm not, nor am I confusing Israels short comings with It's Right to exist. Zionism, to me, by definition means a Jewish State. I'm neither a Citizen of Israel or Jewish. I don't see that as my business, anymore than I would have an interest in Saudi Arabia choosing to be Sharia. Here in USA, We have chosen a path that, at least in theory, tries to protect and preserve Individual Rights without regard to gender or religion. Personally, that is my preference. What I am saying to you, as a witness, before the One True God, Maker of Heaven and Earth, is that my remaining true to your Faith, you are less likely to be the servant of Injustice, be you Jew or Muslim. God first in all things leaves little room for backsliding, scamming others, or compounding the damage. Christ was not the first to proclaim doing something other than returning evil for evil. There is a better way. Ezekiel Chapter 18 is a favorite of mine. Make no mistake, I support Israel's right to exist, as a matter of faith.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

There are all kinds of people, today's Palestinians call foreigners.

P F Tinmore, et al,

What "foreign intervention?"


(QUESTION)

Who intervened and when?

Most Respectfully,
R

Those foreigners were in Palestine doing what?

(COMMENT)

If you are talking about Jewish Immigrants, then they are not true foreigners. All throughout the Ottoman Empire, a succession of Sultans encouraged Jewish Immigration. The Administrative Territory of Palestine was considered their home. But there was no restriction on the Immigration. In fact, as late as 1870, the Sultan Abdul Aziz allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs." (Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects).

By 1919, Emir Faisal, extended an open invitation for unrestricted immigration into the region of Palestine. The Jews were not true foreigners, but under Arab royal decree to immigrate, under Ottoman sanction. This actual language was copied verbatim into the Mandate, pursuant to the Covenant and Agreement of the Arab Emir.

As for the Allied Powers, the territory was Ottoman, and under the provisions of Article 132, Treaty of Sevres (1920), Turkey (successor to the Ottomans) "renounces in favour of the Principal Allied Powers all rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories outside Europe which are not otherwise disposed of by the present Treaty." So, the Allied Powers were not foreigners. And Article 95, of the treaty says: "The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." With the Arab Emir agreeing to the commission to survey.

So I ask again, who are you declaring as foreigners? From 1492, when Sultan Bayezid II accepted the exiled Jews from Italy, Spain and Portugal, and when Sultan Abdulhamid is making plans for installing 200,000 Jewish immigrants from Russia in the south east (AKA: Palestine), and then Arab Emir invitation decree, and then the Treaty which places Palestine in the hands of the Allied Powers, when did the "foreigners" arrive.

What foreigners?

Most Respectfully,
R

You are trying to confuse the issue.

There were the Jews who immigrated on their own to live in the holy land. Then there were the Jews who were imported by the Zionists to take over the country. They were two separate, unrelated groups of people.

The immigration policy when Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire were no longer valid.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

There are all kinds of people, today's Palestinians call foreigners.

Those foreigners were in Palestine doing what?

(COMMENT)

If you are talking about Jewish Immigrants, then they are not true foreigners. All throughout the Ottoman Empire, a succession of Sultans encouraged Jewish Immigration. The Administrative Territory of Palestine was considered their home. But there was no restriction on the Immigration. In fact, as late as 1870, the Sultan Abdul Aziz allocated the "Alliance Israelite Universelle" 2600 dunams of land east of Jaffa for the establishment of a school of agriculture and also granted permission for importing all kinds of tools and machinery free of taxes and customs." (Ottoman Sultans and Their Jewish Subjects).

By 1919, Emir Faisal, extended an open invitation for unrestricted immigration into the region of Palestine. The Jews were not true foreigners, but under Arab royal decree to immigrate, under Ottoman sanction. This actual language was copied verbatim into the Mandate, pursuant to the Covenant and Agreement of the Arab Emir.

As for the Allied Powers, the territory was Ottoman, and under the provisions of Article 132, Treaty of Sevres (1920), Turkey (successor to the Ottomans) "renounces in favour of the Principal Allied Powers all rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories outside Europe which are not otherwise disposed of by the present Treaty." So, the Allied Powers were not foreigners. And Article 95, of the treaty says: "The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." With the Arab Emir agreeing to the commission to survey.

So I ask again, who are you declaring as foreigners? From 1492, when Sultan Bayezid II accepted the exiled Jews from Italy, Spain and Portugal, and when Sultan Abdulhamid is making plans for installing 200,000 Jewish immigrants from Russia in the south east (AKA: Palestine), and then Arab Emir invitation decree, and then the Treaty which places Palestine in the hands of the Allied Powers, when did the "foreigners" arrive.

What foreigners?

Most Respectfully,
R

You are trying to confuse the issue.

There were the Jews who immigrated on their own to live in the holy land. Then there were the Jews who were imported by the Zionists to take over the country. They were two separate, unrelated groups of people.

The immigration policy when Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire were no longer valid.

There was no country called Palestine at the time....was there ever???

and stop with the "came to take over the land" propaganda

 

[Intense]

Thread Cleaned. Zone 2 Posting Rules apply. Pleace keep it on topic.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, to an extent I agree.

You are trying to confuse the issue.

There were the Jews who immigrated on their own to live in the holy land. Then there were the Jews who were imported by the Zionists to take over the country. They were two separate, unrelated groups of people.

The immigration policy when Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire were no longer valid.

(COMMENT)

After the Ottoman Empire, there was:

All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights, and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.

SOURCE: Faisal-Weizmann agreement/Non-UN document (3 January 1919)

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[BecauseIKnow]

OP, you realize those same questions can vary and also the same concerns are to be addressed by the other side. This is a vast world with people with many different views and it isn't simply black and white as you see it.

Now, the irony of this 'post quiz' you've entertained us with is that you've given us a general rundown of who we're dealing with.

The same arrogant and extremist views shared by Likud officials in the Israeli government and is looked down upon around the world.

It's a shame some people still have these extreme black and white views, either a Jewish state or a Palestinian state and that's it. They come from both sides but honestly we see it commonly from the israeli side, the Palestinians on the other hand are just asking for independence and their rights.

Even though you may whitewash their intentions with your own fabrications.

 

[toastman]

OP, you realize those same questions can vary and also the same concerns are to be addressed by the other side. This is a vast world with people with many different views and it isn't simply black and white as you see it.

Now, the irony of this 'post quiz' you've entertained us with is that you've given us a general rundown of who we're dealing with.

The same arrogant and extremist views shared by Likud officials in the Israeli government and is looked down upon around the world.

It's a shame some people still have these extreme black and white views, either a Jewish state or a Palestinian state and that's it. They come from both sides but honestly we see it commonly from the israeli side, the Palestinians on the other hand are just asking for independence and their rights.

Even though you may whitewash their intentions with your own fabrications.

Then start a thread about it addressing the questions from the other side. I'm actually serious, it might be an interesting thread ...

 

[MHunterB]

That is very interesting, Rocco - it certainly appears as though Faisal was trying to get Jews to move into his territory to be a middle class and to develop business opportunities for people to invest in and broaden the economic base from mere subsistence agriculture.