A few questions for the fundies

[Taz]

They came from experience.

Really? You've personally experienced everything about which you have an opinion regarding right and wrong? Who'd you kill?

Personal experience includes things I’ve read or seen, not just that I’ve lived myself. Now you know.

Ahhh, things you've read. So . . . other people's morals that you've adopted and pretended to yourself that you invented, in other words.

But somehow, when the rest of us adopt a personal moral standard from things WE'VE read, WE are all crazy, simply because the things we read happened to be in the Bible.

Got it. Glad we cleared that up.

Depends what you read, if it’s a book about a ghost that rapes a human to have a zombie child, then... well... you know what I’m saying...

That you're a dumbass who knows nothing about the Bible? Yes, I know what you're saying. It's what you're always saying.

It is what it is, and certainly not a book of morality.

 

[Taz]

On personal moral standards. If I lived by the bible, most of the people in my immediate family would be missing an eye (an eye for an eye).

I'm always impressed by the hubris inherent in "I don't need to know about wisdom throughout human history. I'm much smarter than everyone who ever lived combined!"

Just from watching you, I don't think you could puzzle out how to assemble an Ikea bookcase without the instructions, let alone assemble a complete moral code without references. I also suspect your "personal moral standard" is really just a lot of stuff you borrowed from other places, including the Bible, leavened with a heaping helping of "I want to do this right now, therefore it is now moral". And then you stood around, congratulating yourself on how you "figured out what was right" all by yourself.

Your moral reference comes from a book where a ghost rapes a woman to make a zombie child. And before that, your ghost mass murdered nearly everyone in a flood it caused. And on and on... so please spare us the lecture of how your morality is the purest.

And you read . . . what, to develop the personal moral standard that you pretend to have invented all by your onesy? And more to the point, what did the author read to develop HIS personal moral standard for the book you plagiarized?

I'm not saying my morality is the purest. I'm saying we have the same ultimate source, and I'M just honest enough to admit it.

Sorry, my morals don’t come from a powerful ghost that drowns most of humanity because he screwed up making them.

Yeah, they do. You're just too much of a conceited, reductive moron to realize and admit it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've lived your entire life in a Western society. The people you've observed and made judgements about have also lived most or all of their lives in a Western society. The books you've read, movies you've watched, etc. were pretty much all created by people who lived most or all of their lives in Western societies. So basically, the moral standards permeating everything upon which you've made your judgements regarding right and wrong have been based on Western societal norms.

And, of course, Western civilization was built by and is heavily based on Christianity, and is completely permeated by and infused with Christian ideas and viewpoints.

But you'd have us believe that you somehow puzzled out a completely unique, original "personal moral standard" that is uninfluenced by and separate from Christianity.

Okay, Bubba, you go with that.

So that's what made me the "dumbass" that you called me?

 

[Correll]

Your parents didn't come into it? What about your environment? No authority figures or stories with lessons that taught you anything?

Nope, just my own experiences that I took whatever from here and there. My parents are ******* douchebags and most of the "moral" stories came from going to church, and I thought that was total bullshit, even at a very early age.

No man is an island.


YOu might have rebelled and rejected your parents and their teachings, but you didn't invent your morals out of thin air.


DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

 

[Correll]

I'm always impressed by the hubris inherent in "I don't need to know about wisdom throughout human history. I'm much smarter than everyone who ever lived combined!"

Just from watching you, I don't think you could puzzle out how to assemble an Ikea bookcase without the instructions, let alone assemble a complete moral code without references. I also suspect your "personal moral standard" is really just a lot of stuff you borrowed from other places, including the Bible, leavened with a heaping helping of "I want to do this right now, therefore it is now moral". And then you stood around, congratulating yourself on how you "figured out what was right" all by yourself.

Your moral reference comes from a book where a ghost rapes a woman to make a zombie child. And before that, your ghost mass murdered nearly everyone in a flood it caused. And on and on... so please spare us the lecture of how your morality is the purest.

And you read . . . what, to develop the personal moral standard that you pretend to have invented all by your onesy? And more to the point, what did the author read to develop HIS personal moral standard for the book you plagiarized?

I'm not saying my morality is the purest. I'm saying we have the same ultimate source, and I'M just honest enough to admit it.

Sorry, my morals don’t come from a powerful ghost that drowns most of humanity because he screwed up making them.

Yeah, they do. You're just too much of a conceited, reductive moron to realize and admit it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've lived your entire life in a Western society. The people you've observed and made judgements about have also lived most or all of their lives in a Western society. The books you've read, movies you've watched, etc. were pretty much all created by people who lived most or all of their lives in Western societies. So basically, the moral standards permeating everything upon which you've made your judgements regarding right and wrong have been based on Western societal norms.

And, of course, Western civilization was built by and is heavily based on Christianity, and is completely permeated by and infused with Christian ideas and viewpoints.

But you'd have us believe that you somehow puzzled out a completely unique, original "personal moral standard" that is uninfluenced by and separate from Christianity.

Okay, Bubba, you go with that.

So that's what made me the "dumbass" that you called me?

Taz, her post was brilliant and if you can't seriously and honestly refute it, this is where you should admit that you are wrong and thank her for teaching you.

Refute it, or admit defeat.

YOur dodge made you look BAD.

 

[Taz]

... I deal with it just fine, but don't consider it normal behavior to believe in a ghost who ***** a virgin, because it's not normal, nor is it the norm.

What you say here is exactly the abnormal hate method of the Nazis to devalue people who do not "think" like you.

So your method then.

 

[zaangalewa]

... I deal with it just fine, but don't consider it normal behavior to believe in a ghost who ***** a virgin, because it's not normal, nor is it the norm.

What you say here is exactly the abnormal hate method of the Nazis to devalue people who do not "think" like you.

So your method then.

No comment, Nazi

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Your team is up by that much?

As far as the specific topic we were talking about, before you sissied out and changed the topic to Trump? Yes, easily. More like 200 to 0.

Topic change? Are you retarded? I was simply pointing out examples that your ideological fellow travelers don't have the dominant political position that you're claiming. Are you really that unfamiliar with how an argument works, what with supporting points and the like?

That was not a supporting point, as the pollong all still supports my point, and the point we were talking about is not the issue Trumpkins voted on.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Really? You've personally experienced everything about which you have an opinion regarding right and wrong? Who'd you kill?

Personal experience includes things I’ve read or seen, not just that I’ve lived myself. Now you know.

Ahhh, things you've read. So . . . other people's morals that you've adopted and pretended to yourself that you invented, in other words.

But somehow, when the rest of us adopt a personal moral standard from things WE'VE read, WE are all crazy, simply because the things we read happened to be in the Bible.

Got it. Glad we cleared that up.

Depends what you read, if it’s a book about a ghost that rapes a human to have a zombie child, then... well... you know what I’m saying...

That you're a dumbass who knows nothing about the Bible? Yes, I know what you're saying. It's what you're always saying.

It is what it is, and certainly not a book of morality.

Notwithstanding the fact that it was the foundation of Western civilization, the most prosperous, morally-minded society in human history. Can't imagine why that would make anyone think it's a book of morality.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm always impressed by the hubris inherent in "I don't need to know about wisdom throughout human history. I'm much smarter than everyone who ever lived combined!"

Just from watching you, I don't think you could puzzle out how to assemble an Ikea bookcase without the instructions, let alone assemble a complete moral code without references. I also suspect your "personal moral standard" is really just a lot of stuff you borrowed from other places, including the Bible, leavened with a heaping helping of "I want to do this right now, therefore it is now moral". And then you stood around, congratulating yourself on how you "figured out what was right" all by yourself.

Your moral reference comes from a book where a ghost rapes a woman to make a zombie child. And before that, your ghost mass murdered nearly everyone in a flood it caused. And on and on... so please spare us the lecture of how your morality is the purest.

And you read . . . what, to develop the personal moral standard that you pretend to have invented all by your onesy? And more to the point, what did the author read to develop HIS personal moral standard for the book you plagiarized?

I'm not saying my morality is the purest. I'm saying we have the same ultimate source, and I'M just honest enough to admit it.

Sorry, my morals don’t come from a powerful ghost that drowns most of humanity because he screwed up making them.

Yeah, they do. You're just too much of a conceited, reductive moron to realize and admit it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've lived your entire life in a Western society. The people you've observed and made judgements about have also lived most or all of their lives in a Western society. The books you've read, movies you've watched, etc. were pretty much all created by people who lived most or all of their lives in Western societies. So basically, the moral standards permeating everything upon which you've made your judgements regarding right and wrong have been based on Western societal norms.

And, of course, Western civilization was built by and is heavily based on Christianity, and is completely permeated by and infused with Christian ideas and viewpoints.

But you'd have us believe that you somehow puzzled out a completely unique, original "personal moral standard" that is uninfluenced by and separate from Christianity.

Okay, Bubba, you go with that.

So that's what made me the "dumbass" that you called me?

If I had to guess, I'd say being dropped on your head as a baby is what made you the dumbass you are.

But yes, claiming to have invented a personal moral code all by yourself, when you're really only cribbing notes from Christianity at second- and third-hand, would definitely be evidence of the aforementioned dumbassery.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nope, just my own experiences that I took whatever from here and there. My parents are ******* douchebags and most of the "moral" stories came from going to church, and I thought that was total bullshit, even at a very early age.

No man is an island.


YOu might have rebelled and rejected your parents and their teachings, but you didn't invent your morals out of thin air.


DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

I'd say yes, his vaunted "personal morals", which are allegedly so superior to morality derived from the Bible, are nothing more than positive and negative personal consequences to himself, and involve little to no thought of higher concerns of right and wrong, obligations to others, etc. I haven't heard anything from him yet that looks like an actual moral code, as opposed to self-interest.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

No man is an island.


YOu might have rebelled and rejected your parents and their teachings, but you didn't invent your morals out of thin air.


DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

I'd say yes, his vaunted "personal morals", which are allegedly so superior to morality derived from the Bible, are nothing more than positive and negative personal consequences to himself, and involve little to no thought of higher concerns of right and wrong, obligations to others, etc. I haven't heard anything from him yet that looks like an actual moral code, as opposed to self-interest.

This dicussion always has a bit of irony. Religious people will swear up and down they get much, most, or all of their moral code from their religion. This is utterly false. The people alive today in our modern societies get their moral code from our modern culture and modern morals, which derive from concepts like classical liberalism and scientific enlightenment. That's why they have better and more rational morals than did Christians from 400 years ago, despite carrying around the same book of instructions. So, the irony is that every single one of you is a walking, talking, living contradiction to the overwrought, hopeful points you are trying to make about your moral codes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

I'd say yes, his vaunted "personal morals", which are allegedly so superior to morality derived from the Bible, are nothing more than positive and negative personal consequences to himself, and involve little to no thought of higher concerns of right and wrong, obligations to others, etc. I haven't heard anything from him yet that looks like an actual moral code, as opposed to self-interest.

This dicussion always has a bit of irony. Religious people will swear up and down they get much, most, or all of their moral code from their religion. This is utterly false. The people alive today in our modern societies get their moral code from our modern culture and modern morals, which derive from concepts like classical liberalism and scientific enlightenment. That's why they have better and more rational morals than did Christians from 400 years ago, despite carrying around the same book of instructions. So, the irony is that every single one of you is a walking, talking, living contradiction to the overwrought, hopeful points you are trying to make about your moral codes.

Sorry, but you're wrong on several levels.

First of all, our "modern society" bases its moral standards, one way or another, on the "outmoded" morals of previous ages, either by trying to re-invent the wheel and come up with "modern" reasons for doing the exact same things or by arguing against things for some reason or another. There is not a single, solid moral truism that has been invented by "modern" society. It's either plagiarized or utter crap.

Second of all, religious people adhere to somewhat different moral standards than non-religious people, either because their religion requires things that non-believers simply don't do, or because of very different reasoning behind their actions, or because of the aforementioned invented crap. There's not a single truly religious person out there who cannot cite to you the exact reason why they hold a particular moral view directly from their holy book, and they will do so if you bother to ask them.

Third, "classical liberalism" and the Enlightenment you lefties are so very fond of citing both had Christian moral principles as their foundation. Hate to break it to you. Actually, that's a lie. In fact, I rather love shattering all your arrogant delusions into a million pieces.

Allow me to introduce a couple of excellent books which will expand your knowledge of "modern" Western society:

https://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Individual-Origins-Western-Liberalism/dp/0674979885/?tag=usmb-20

https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280/?tag=usmb-20

Everything you leftists like to proudly proclaim as the birth of "modern" moral thinking was nothing more than building on the foundations that were already in place before the Renaissance.

Fourth, there are no "better and more rational morals" than Christianity. There are only expanded understandings and applications of the old morals, eg. when slavery was abolished in the British Empire because of Christians who came to understand that EVERYONE truly was a child of God with a valuable soul, not just white people.

The real irony is that all you puffed-up, self-satisfied leftists are actually a morass of borrowed Christian morals desperately trying to believe that you're smarter than the whole of human history before you, and able to invent morality out of the whole cloth, in just a short portion of your individual short lives, that is superior to centuries of philosophical thought, learning, and observation.

 

[Correll]

No man is an island.


YOu might have rebelled and rejected your parents and their teachings, but you didn't invent your morals out of thin air.


DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

I'd say yes, his vaunted "personal morals", which are allegedly so superior to morality derived from the Bible, are nothing more than positive and negative personal consequences to himself, and involve little to no thought of higher concerns of right and wrong, obligations to others, etc. I haven't heard anything from him yet that looks like an actual moral code, as opposed to self-interest.

That's because he knows if he puts forth any of his actual belief system, we could easily show how it is derived from a culture or a work or whatever, , as you put it, " completely permeated by and infused with Christian ideas and viewpoints."

 

[Cecilie1200]

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

I'd say yes, his vaunted "personal morals", which are allegedly so superior to morality derived from the Bible, are nothing more than positive and negative personal consequences to himself, and involve little to no thought of higher concerns of right and wrong, obligations to others, etc. I haven't heard anything from him yet that looks like an actual moral code, as opposed to self-interest.

That's because he knows if he puts forth any of his actual belief system, we could easily show how it is derived from a culture or a work or whatever, , as you put it, " completely permeated by and infused with Christian ideas and viewpoints."

Or, conversely, we would demonstrate how his "morality" is not moral at all, but simply self-interest.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

I'd say yes, his vaunted "personal morals", which are allegedly so superior to morality derived from the Bible, are nothing more than positive and negative personal consequences to himself, and involve little to no thought of higher concerns of right and wrong, obligations to others, etc. I haven't heard anything from him yet that looks like an actual moral code, as opposed to self-interest.

This dicussion always has a bit of irony. Religious people will swear up and down they get much, most, or all of their moral code from their religion. This is utterly false. The people alive today in our modern societies get their moral code from our modern culture and modern morals, which derive from concepts like classical liberalism and scientific enlightenment. That's why they have better and more rational morals than did Christians from 400 years ago, despite carrying around the same book of instructions. So, the irony is that every single one of you is a walking, talking, living contradiction to the overwrought, hopeful points you are trying to make about your moral codes.

Sorry, but you're wrong on several levels.

First of all, our "modern society" bases its moral standards, one way or another, on the "outmoded" morals of previous ages, either by trying to re-invent the wheel and come up with "modern" reasons for doing the exact same things or by arguing against things for some reason or another. There is not a single, solid moral truism that has been invented by "modern" society. It's either plagiarized or utter crap.

Second of all, religious people adhere to somewhat different moral standards than non-religious people, either because their religion requires things that non-believers simply don't do, or because of very different reasoning behind their actions, or because of the aforementioned invented crap. There's not a single truly religious person out there who cannot cite to you the exact reason why they hold a particular moral view directly from their holy book, and they will do so if you bother to ask them.

Third, "classical liberalism" and the Enlightenment you lefties are so very fond of citing both had Christian moral principles as their foundation. Hate to break it to you. Actually, that's a lie. In fact, I rather love shattering all your arrogant delusions into a million pieces.

Allow me to introduce a couple of excellent books which will expand your knowledge of "modern" Western society:

https://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Individual-Origins-Western-Liberalism/dp/0674979885/?tag=usmb-20

https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280/?tag=usmb-20

Everything you leftists like to proudly proclaim as the birth of "modern" moral thinking was nothing more than building on the foundations that were already in place before the Renaissance.

Fourth, there are no "better and more rational morals" than Christianity. There are only expanded understandings and applications of the old morals, eg. when slavery was abolished in the British Empire because of Christians who came to understand that EVERYONE truly was a child of God with a valuable soul, not just white people.

The real irony is that all you puffed-up, self-satisfied leftists are actually a morass of borrowed Christian morals desperately trying to believe that you're smarter than the whole of human history before you, and able to invent morality out of the whole cloth, in just a short portion of your individual short lives, that is superior to centuries of philosophical thought, learning, and observation.

You unwittingly make my point for me. To point out that any of these philosophical milestones had foundations in religion os to point out how they diverged from those incomplete, irrational, and immoral religious bases.

And you need to look up classical liberalism, because your comments mating it to leftist ideology are absurd and would not be uttered by someone who knew the first thing about classical liberalism.

Classical liberalism, scientofoc enlightenment, and secular goverbment arose IN SPITE OF magical religious bullshit.

And again....and this is the compelling point you will NEVER be able to sidestep....these ideas brought us better morals, not the religious garbage. Thats why we have better morals than we did 50p years ago, on the whole. 150 years ago, slavers were pulling justification from the Bible for slavery. Now, they aren't. And that is because of observance of classical liberalism amd because of scientofoc enlightenment. Period. Your archaic, bronze age instruction book is simply obsolete.

 

[Correll]

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

I'd say yes, his vaunted "personal morals", which are allegedly so superior to morality derived from the Bible, are nothing more than positive and negative personal consequences to himself, and involve little to no thought of higher concerns of right and wrong, obligations to others, etc. I haven't heard anything from him yet that looks like an actual moral code, as opposed to self-interest.

That's because he knows if he puts forth any of his actual belief system, we could easily show how it is derived from a culture or a work or whatever, , as you put it, " completely permeated by and infused with Christian ideas and viewpoints."

Or, conversely, we would demonstrate how his "morality" is not moral at all, but simply self-interest.

If you believe that he has been honest here. Which I don't.

 

[Taz]

Nope, just my own experiences that I took whatever from here and there. My parents are ******* douchebags and most of the "moral" stories came from going to church, and I thought that was total bullshit, even at a very early age.

No man is an island.


YOu might have rebelled and rejected your parents and their teachings, but you didn't invent your morals out of thin air.


DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

When you're little, yes, getting in trouble is the biggest worry.

 

[Correll]

No man is an island.


YOu might have rebelled and rejected your parents and their teachings, but you didn't invent your morals out of thin air.


DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

The potential prison sentence.

That is not a credible answer.



DO you believe that stealing is wrong, and if so, when did you come to that conclusion?

When I realized that you can get in trouble for that.

Fear of consequences is not learning something is wrong.

Or are you stating that the only thing keeping your from stealing is fear of being caught and punished?

When you're little, yes, getting in trouble is the biggest worry.

Who were you worried about being punished BY?

 

[Taz]

Your moral reference comes from a book where a ghost rapes a woman to make a zombie child. And before that, your ghost mass murdered nearly everyone in a flood it caused. And on and on... so please spare us the lecture of how your morality is the purest.

And you read . . . what, to develop the personal moral standard that you pretend to have invented all by your onesy? And more to the point, what did the author read to develop HIS personal moral standard for the book you plagiarized?

I'm not saying my morality is the purest. I'm saying we have the same ultimate source, and I'M just honest enough to admit it.

Sorry, my morals don’t come from a powerful ghost that drowns most of humanity because he screwed up making them.

Yeah, they do. You're just too much of a conceited, reductive moron to realize and admit it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've lived your entire life in a Western society. The people you've observed and made judgements about have also lived most or all of their lives in a Western society. The books you've read, movies you've watched, etc. were pretty much all created by people who lived most or all of their lives in Western societies. So basically, the moral standards permeating everything upon which you've made your judgements regarding right and wrong have been based on Western societal norms.

And, of course, Western civilization was built by and is heavily based on Christianity, and is completely permeated by and infused with Christian ideas and viewpoints.

But you'd have us believe that you somehow puzzled out a completely unique, original "personal moral standard" that is uninfluenced by and separate from Christianity.

Okay, Bubba, you go with that.

So that's what made me the "dumbass" that you called me?

Taz, her post was brilliant and if you can't seriously and honestly refute it, this is where you should admit that you are wrong and thank her for teaching you.

Refute it, or admit defeat.

YOur dodge made you look BAD.

You bible folks are just desperate to have everyone agree with you because deep down, you know that's it's a hateful book full of orders from god to kill, if he's not doing to killing himself. And you think that the bible taught everyone right from wrong? Maybe that's why all the prisons are full up, the priests are being exposed as pedophiles and wars are raging throughout the world? It's ridiculous, you need to get a grip on reality.

 

[Taz]

... I deal with it just fine, but don't consider it normal behavior to believe in a ghost who ***** a virgin, because it's not normal, nor is it the norm.

What you say here is exactly the abnormal hate method of the Nazis to devalue people who do not "think" like you.

So your method then.

No comment, Nazi

Your concession is duly noted. Zeig heil!