Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
was committed for the purpose of illegally influencing an election,
Influencing an election isn't illegal.
A convicted felon / President?
- Thread starter bill718
- Start date
was committed for the purpose of illegally influencing an election,
Influencing an election isn't illegal.
MagicMike
Platinum Member
No but illegally influencing an election is.
It all would have been legal if he'd simply recorded his hush money payments to a porn actress for what they were instead of ledgering them as "attorney fees," which they were not.
Of course that wouldn't have looked very good in fall of 2016.....right when he was trying to crawl out from under the "grab em by the pussy" scandal.
So that is the crux of it all.
He committed bookkeeping fraud in order to influence an election....in violation of federal and NY state law.
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
He committed bookkeeping fraud in order to influence an election....
No such thing.
The election-law-conspiracy statute Bragg cites (§17-152), states the following, in pertinent part:
Any two or more persons who conspire to promote . . . the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means . . . shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
A criminal conspiracy is simply an agreement to commit a crime. Yet, Bragg and Merchan misconstrue this statute to mean that the proscribed conspiracy is the agreement “to promote the election of any person.” That is, they’d have us see the promotion of a candidate’s election as the objective — the end result the conspirators were seeking to achieve — even though that objective is not a crime.
What about the statute’s reference to “unlawful means”? Merchan and Bragg interpret that merely to state, literally, the means by which the conspirators seek their objective. The criminal law distinguishes a conspiracy’s end from the means by which conspirators seek to achieve it. It is the end — the objective — on which jurors must unanimously agree; they need not be unanimous as to means (the latter are often not even alleged in a conspiracy indictment). That was Merchan’s rationalization for instructing the jurors that they needn’t be unanimous regarding the “unlawful means.”
Alas, while literalism is usually desirable in interpreting statutory text, here it invites error. To repeat, “to promote the election of any person” cannot be the objective of a criminal conspiracy because it’s not a crime. The reason the jury must be unanimous about the objective of a conspiracy is that the objective is the intended crime. In §17-152, however, there is no intended crime unless what the statute confusingly calls “unlawful means” are factored in. Ergo, the so-called unlawful means are not really means; they are ends. Simply stated, what the statute labels “unlawful means” are the most essential part of the objective — the activities that make the agreement illegal, that make it a criminal conspiracy.
To convict, a jury must unanimously find, beyond a reasonable doubt, the crime that is the objective of the conspiracy. With regard to the state’s allegation that Trump falsified records to conceal a criminal conspiracy, it would be insufficient for prosecutors to establish that Trump, Cohen, and Pecker agreed to promote Trump’s election. Promoting a candidate’s election is legal. It is what political campaigns do. The First Amendment would not abide an attempt by a state legislature to criminalize it (however much such blue states as New York would like to make it a crime to support the election of Donald Trump).
The agreement can only be a criminal conspiracy if it entails an effort to commit a crime. The agreement to commit a crime is what makes a conspiracy, and the concealment of such a conspiracy is what makes falsification of business records a felony, rather than a misdemeanor. Consequently, in Erlinger terms, the objective crime is the fact that exposes the defendant to an enhanced penalty. For a conviction to be valid, then, a jury would have to find, unanimously and beyond a reasonable doubt, at least one of the three criminal activities (or “unlawful means”) proposed by Bragg — the FECA scheme, the falsification of Cohen’s business records, or the tax crimes. To be clear, the jurors needed only to have found one, not all three; but they had to find at least one — the same one, unanimously.
ANDREW C. MCCARTHY
MagicMike
Platinum Member
Wrong
And the jury did.
And the jury ruled guilty unanimously on all 34 counts.
Case closed. All that remains now is sentencing. This case is appeal-proof.
Andrew C. McCarthy's opinion is horseshit.
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
MagicMike
Platinum Member
Are you TRYING to appear dense?
What vote total are you talking about?
And can this REALLY be the first you've heard the facts of this case?
Have you been living under a rock?
The crime is listed in the excerpt below but you obviously have a pretty serious reading disability going on so I'll be happy to help unpack it for you.
It is illegal in the state of New York to commit a crime in order to aid/further/assist/help a political campaign.
The evidence presented in court proved to a jury of Trump's peers beyond a reasonable doubt that the misdemeanor incidents of falsifying business records became felonies because the records were falsified (washed through Michael Cohen) in order to aid/further/assist/ Trump's campaign.
To recap, the falsified records (34 counts) WOULD have been just 34 misdemeanors.....except misdemeanors are still crimes.
These midemeanor CRIMES were committed to shield candidate Trump's campaign from the damage a story about Trump screwing a porn actress while his wife was home pregnant with his devil spawn would cause his campaign.
Again....it is illegal to commit crimes (even misdemeanors) in NY state to help a political campaign.
Guilty.
Slam dunk.
That means the jury must show Trump falsified records to cover a second crime, which prosecutors allege is New York’s election law prohibiting “conspir[ing] to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means”—since Cohen allegedly paid off Daniels in order to boost Trump’s chances in the 2016 election.
Trump Convicted: Here Are The Election And Tax Laws He Was Charged With Breaking
Trump has only been charged with falsification of business records, but jurors would also have to find he did it to cover up an underlying crime.
www.forbes.com
Hey FYI, this is the point where you are supposed to flip your weak-ass, bullshit defense of this to "Trump didn't have a jury of his peers because......"
Go ahead.
I'll wait.
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
Are you TRYING to appear dense?
What vote total are you talking about?
And can this REALLY be the first you've heard the facts of this case?
Have you been living under a rock?
The crime is listed in the excerpt below but you obviously have a pretty serious reading disability going on so I'll be happy to help unpack it for you.
It is illegal in the state of New York to commit a crime in order to aid/further/assist/help a political campaign.
The evidence presented in court proved to a jury of Trump's peers beyond a reasonable doubt that the misdemeanor incidents of falsifying business records became felonies because the records were falsified (washed through Michael Cohen) in order to aid/further/assist/ Trump's campaign.
To recap, the falsified records (34 counts) WOULD have been just 34 misdemeanors.....except misdemeanors are still crimes.
These midemeanor CRIMES were committed to shield candidate Trump's campaign from the damage a story about Trump screwing a porn actress while his wife was home pregnant with his devil spawn would cause his campaign.
Again....it is illegal to commit crimes (even misdemeanors) in NY state to help a political campaign.
Guilty.
Slam dunk.
That means the jury must show Trump falsified records to cover a second crime, which prosecutors allege is New York’s election law prohibiting “conspir[ing] to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means”—since Cohen allegedly paid off Daniels in order to boost Trump’s chances in the 2016 election.
Trump Convicted: Here Are The Election And Tax Laws He Was Charged With Breaking
Trump has only been charged with falsification of business records, but jurors would also have to find he did it to cover up an underlying crime.
Hey FYI, this is the point where you are supposed to flip your weak-ass, bullshit defense of this to "Trump didn't have a jury of his peers because......"
Go ahead.
I'll wait.
These midemeanor CRIMES were committed to shield candidate Trump's campaign from the damage.....
How did checks written in 2017 shield his campaign from damage?
“conspir[ing] to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means”
You have to conspire to commit a crime. Influencing an election is not a crime.
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
Are you TRYING to appear dense?
What vote total are you talking about?
And can this REALLY be the first you've heard the facts of this case?
Have you been living under a rock?
The crime is listed in the excerpt below but you obviously have a pretty serious reading disability going on so I'll be happy to help unpack it for you.
It is illegal in the state of New York to commit a crime in order to aid/further/assist/help a political campaign.
The evidence presented in court proved to a jury of Trump's peers beyond a reasonable doubt that the misdemeanor incidents of falsifying business records became felonies because the records were falsified (washed through Michael Cohen) in order to aid/further/assist/ Trump's campaign.
To recap, the falsified records (34 counts) WOULD have been just 34 misdemeanors.....except misdemeanors are still crimes.
These midemeanor CRIMES were committed to shield candidate Trump's campaign from the damage a story about Trump screwing a porn actress while his wife was home pregnant with his devil spawn would cause his campaign.
Again....it is illegal to commit crimes (even misdemeanors) in NY state to help a political campaign.
Guilty.
Slam dunk.
That means the jury must show Trump falsified records to cover a second crime, which prosecutors allege is New York’s election law prohibiting “conspir[ing] to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means”—since Cohen allegedly paid off Daniels in order to boost Trump’s chances in the 2016 election.
Trump Convicted: Here Are The Election And Tax Laws He Was Charged With Breaking
Trump has only been charged with falsification of business records, but jurors would also have to find he did it to cover up an underlying crime.
Hey FYI, this is the point where you are supposed to flip your weak-ass, bullshit defense of this to "Trump didn't have a jury of his peers because......"
Go ahead.
I'll wait.
Thanks for the link.
In his instructions Wednesday, Judge Juan Merchan gave jurors several choices for that third crime to show “unlawful means.”
The third “unlawful” action could be violating the Federal Election Campaign Act, meaning Cohen’s payment to Daniels was a contribution to Trump’s campaign that exceeded the legal limit—which Cohen already pleaded guilty to.
The third crime could also be falsifying other business records, after Cohen created a fake shell company to send the Daniels payment in 2016, or violating tax laws by making false entries on tax returns related to the payment.
Three choices? Awesome!
How many voted him guilty on number 1?
How many voted him guilty on number 2?
How many voted him guilty on number 3?
MagicMike
Platinum Member
Enough to comvict him unanimously on all 34 counts.
MagicMike
Platinum Member
Not going to play the circular argument with you.
This has already beem explained to you. You either get it or you don't.
You cannot armchair litigate the facts away.
Guilty on all counts.
Pretty much....period.
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
MagicMike
Platinum Member
Let's see how many times you need me to circle back to this same answer before you finally get it.
In the state of New York it is illegal (a felony) to commit a crime to benefit a political campaign.
Any crime.
Trump falsified 34 business records to disguise his hush money payments to Stormy Daniels as simple "attorney fees" to Michael Cohen.
He did this to shield his campaign from the fallout of a damaging news story.
So there we have what would have been 34 misdemeanor bookkeeping charges but BECAUSE these 34 crimes were committed in order to help his political campaign (again...ILLEGAL in NY) then the 34 misdemeanors automatically become felonies.
And that is what he was convicted on.
billyerock123
Gold Member
- Jan 9, 2021
- 2,806
- 979
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no, he is the only one who has been convicted of a crime,,, he's the only one who has been impeached 2 times ... he is the only one who has lied so much that he doesn't care that he's lying ... just today Sep. 16 2024 he has admitted that the Haitian eating your pets is a lie ...yet these evangelicals still support this evil man
billyerock123
Gold Member
- Jan 9, 2021
- 2,806
- 979
- 208
all 34 crimes he was convicted of ...
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
In the state of New York it is illegal (a felony) to commit a crime to benefit a political campaign.
Any crime.
Thanks.
I'm familiar with the stupid, misinterpreted, probably unconstitutional law.
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
No, moron, what crime turned misdemeanors which were beyond the statute of limitations into felonies?
MagicMike
Platinum Member
Nonsense.
Why shouldn't it be illegal to falsify business records?
Why shouldn't it be a crime to promote a political campaign through illegal means?
SeaMajor7
Diamond Member
Your pathetic cartoon avatar WILL NEVER BE REAL!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
Why shouldn't it be illegal to falsify business records?
It absolutely is, it's a misdemeanor.
Why shouldn't it be a crime to promote a political campaign through illegal means?
If I rob a bank to buy a campaign ad, the crime is robbery, not buying the ad.
MagicMike
Platinum Member
If a misdemeanor is committed to help a political campaign then it becomes a felony.
Yes, it certainly would be, but it's not the same thing.
I understand that you are pissed because you just can't understand how Trump's crack legal team could have been STUPID enough to allow him to score felonies on an obscure NY state law originally used to discourage mob influence on elections.....but here we are.
He probably would have gotten away with it if he hadn't thrown Michael Cohen under the bus. Cohen knew where Trump's skeletons were buried. When he flipped then Trump was screwed.
Whining about how you don't like or agree with a law doesn't change it. Don't you think every single mobster who has had misdemeanors elevated to felonies because of this law throughout the years has tried to make the same complaint....that the law is "stupid/unjust/unconstitutional/illegal......wah...wah...wah....boo....hoo...hoo."
It is almost like a standard script for convicted felons...."I didn't do NUTHIN' wrong....it's the LAW that's wrong!"
Trump (typical felon) is no different.
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