Zone1 A christian-atheist compromise?

[Votto]

I have a simple suggestion for a "middle-ground" on which atheists and christians might reach some compromise.

As it is, atheists have no interest in being christians, let alone in teaching christianity to their children, and christians have no interest in giving up christianity and want it to still be passed down the generations. So what if we agreed to all tell our kids stories of god and christian tales, to enchant youngsters in the magic of it all, but then tell them when they're old enough that god and the biblical legends are myths - but myths that they can one day teach to their children. It's true that Christianity would no longer be a religion, but it would join the ranks of beloved children's folklore alongside Kris Kringle and his slay, the storks who deliver babies, the sandman who visits us in our dreams and the like. While Christianity is dying out, notice how these traditional children's tales remain told, and cherished, from generation to generation.

Wouldn't this be a wonderful way to honor age-old christian traditions while still allowing ourselves to grow up and let go of the myths and legends of our intellectual and spiritual adolescence? I understand that the religion elements might be hard to let go of for some, but just imagine some day having "the talk" with your kid when you tell them the truth about god and they roll their eyes and say, "I knew he wasn't real, dad!" and forgive you for your trickery because of the magic you instilled in their heart. This I think could be a cool thing. Give it a chance?

Here is an idea, leave our children alone and mind your own business.

Stop grooming them in schools, stop telling them they can be one of 2000 genders, stop pretending that Marxism is cool, like BLM, especially since history shows they murdered hundreds of millions more than the Nazi regime last century.

 

[Blues Man]

Literally it is a middle ground, since atheists teaching their kids christianity, even in the context of it beibg myth, and christians keeping their traditions while switching from "religion" to "myth" woukd be both sides reaching out pretty far. Do you have a different middleground to offer?

Once again you are trying to get Christians to affirm their religion is a myth. That is your opinion not theirs. You are attempting to force your beliefs on to others. That is not a middle ground.

 

[pknopp]

Literally it is a middle ground, since atheists teaching their kids christianity, even in the context of it being myth, and christians keeping their traditions while switching from "religion" to "myth" would be both sides reaching out pretty far toward eachother. Do you have a different middleground to offer?

It's none of my business what you teach your children or yours what I teach mine.

 

[Votto]

It's none of my business what you teach your children or yours what I teach mine.

They get to teach our children what they want in schools.

Meanwhile, you can't say "God" in schools and must pretend that the gender crazies is a science thingy.

Sounds fair, right?

 

[john54]

Once again you are trying to get Christians to affirm their religion is a myth. That is your opinion not theirs. You are attempting to force your beliefs on to others. That is not a middle ground.

"Middle ground" could be a literal place where we meet to discuss these sorts of higher matters - say a fossil bed. We could work out where beliefs end and reality starts while pondering the skull of a neanderthal poking out of the dirt.

 

[pknopp]

They get to teach our children what they want in schools.

They?

Meanwhile, you can't say "God" in schools and must pretend that the gender crazies is a science thingy.

Of course you can.

 

[john54]

Here is an idea, leave our children alone and mind your own business.

Stop grooming them in schools, stop telling them they can be one of 2000 genders, stop pretending that Marxism is cool, like BLM, especially since history shows they murdered hundreds of millions more than the Nazi regime last century.

And I'm saying that may not be necessary. Perhaps Christians and atheists are more ready to join hands with just some tweaks to our thinking. You can do it. It's all up to you, okay? Make a little plan and you can change your life today. You don't have to spend your life addicted to feist, homeless on the street preaching the gospel of christ. Follow this plan and very soon you will say, it's okay to be gay. And most of the Bible has been proven to be a myth.

 

[Meriweather]

Well as is I don't think any atheists I know would care to teach their kids christianity so already this feels like a pretty big compromise on atheists' part to include christianity in the lore they tell their children at night, and perhaps on holidays. And of course I don't think atheists would be willing to make this compromise unless christians did their part.

I have lived with atheists in my family for three generations. My Catholic grandmother married an atheist. One of her three children was an atheist. I, a Catholic, married an atheist. Here is what all three generations (and now a fourth) were apparently born knowing: Some people believe in God, even experience things of God. Some do not believe. Each side has great respect for the other; each knows why another either believes or does not believe.

I do not see any respect for anyone in your proposal. How about this: We teach Christianity to everyone and begin with what the nuns told us in Catholic school: Look at the person to your left; now to your right; now to the person in front of you. By the time you reach adulthood, only one of of the four of you will retain your faith in God to the point of remaining a practicing Catholic.

Let's teach children the reality right from the start.

 

[john54]

I have lived with atheists in my family for three generations. My Catholic grandmother married an atheist. One of her three children was an atheist. I, a Catholic, married an atheist. Here is what all three generations (and now a fourth) were apparently born knowing: Some people believe in God, even experience things of God. Some do not believe. Each side has great respect for the other; each knows why another either believes or does not believe.

I do not see any respect for anyone in your proposal. How about this: We teach Christianity to everyone and begin with what the nuns told us in Catholic school: Look at the person to your left; now to your right; now to the person in front of you. By the time you reach adulthood, only one of of the four of you will retain your faith in God to the point of remaining a practicing Catholic.

Let's teach children the reality right from the start.

If that's statistically true it's probably worth teaching?

Look, I dated a devout Christian. I've had these discussions about respect and somehow I wound up making her feel very disrespected due to my manner of discussing religion but this was not the case. There is a cognitive dissonance at work which is necessary to be a Christian, or a theist in general, in this day and age. I'm suggesting Christians retain the traditions, the morals, the stories, allegory and so on, and really barely change anything at all except to recognize myth as myth. I'm offering a way out, to keep the legend of Christ alive, only settled solidly into its category of ancient mythology. I don't see how this is unreasonable.

 

[Meriweather]

Literally it is a middle ground, since atheists teaching their kids christianity, even in the context of it being myth,

Anyway you look at it, you are proposing teaching children a lie. It is one thing to play "Let's pretend" with children about Santa, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and quite another to deliberately lie to them.

I teach my children the reality of God, the reality of life in the kingdom, and then some "teacher" tells them, "Oh, it is just a myth we agreed to teach to placate some Christian parents."

I am not sure you have accepted your own atheism if you want a "compromise". No atheist in my family ever felt a need to compromise. They had no problem with their children being taught Christianity and practicing Christianity. Belief is not something that can be forced, and no belief is not easily overcome.

 

[Meriweather]

There is a cognitive dissonance at work which is necessary to be a Christian, or a theist in general, in this day and age. I'm-m suggesting Christians retain the traditions, the morals, the stories, allegory and so on, and really barely change anything at all except to recognize myth as myth.

Calling truth a myth is the same as spitting on someone. Would you recommend teaching children it is not okay to spit, and then turn around and saying, "Just kidding! Spitting is a good thing."

The trouble with your proposal is that you actually think Christianity is a myth. Those who know that it is not, will not stand for our children being told it is. Teach true Christianity. And remain comfortable in knowing there will always be those who do not believe.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm offering a way out

And Christians are offering a way in...

 

[john54]

Calling truth a myth is the same as spitting on someone. Would you recommend teaching children it is not okay to spit, and then turn around and saying, "Just kidding! Spitting is a good thing."

The trouble with your proposal is that you actually think Christianity is a myth. Those who know that it is not, will not stand for our children being told it is. Teach true Christianity. And remain comfortable in knowing there will always be those who do not believe.

And Christians are offering a way in...

No spitting involved. I'm not calling truth anything, I'm only talking about beliefs. And this is the kind of material I'm saying could make good bedtime storytelling.

'"Christians are offering a way in..." the snake hissed delightedly, waiting for its moment to strike and strangle the life out of the hopeless sinner...'

We have horror, intrigue, all elements to a good story but as is only Christians can enjoy the fantasy elements. Why? Especially when the Bible is public domain? If the goal of Christianity is for it to be universal, then simply let it take its place next to Kris Kringle and co and it will be a timeless classic for all to enjoy.

Isn't it the fantasy elements that most appeal to you? You can keep them! The only real difference would be not calling "belief" "truth" and not calling "fantasy" "reality." That's it really.

 

[Meriweather]

Isn't it the fantasy elements that most appeal to you? You can keep them! The only real difference would be not calling "belief" "truth" and not calling "fantasy" "reality." That's it really.

By any chance did you grow up being taught to take every Biblical account literally? You never learned to identify the various forms of literature in the Bible? If you haven't allow me to point them out:

• Just So Stories - Accounts of how how things came to be (pain in childbirth is an example.
• Fables - Stories where an animal (the story of the donkey comes to mind) takes on human attributes.
• Folklore - A non-scientific explanation of how walls fell down, or how the sun stopped its trajectory.
• Legends - Attributing amazing strength, possibly exhibited by a nobody, to a famous person (David and Goliath)
• Allegory - A story with a hidden meaning or moral (Job)
• Myth - Other gods with supernatural powers mentioned in the Bible - Asherah, Dagon, Marduk, Moloch, Zeus, Hermes...
  
• Apocalyptic Literature - Extravagant symbolism (Revelation, Daniel)

There are also historical accounts, laws, songs, poetry, proverbs in the Bible. What everything on the list has in common with what is considered more historical renderings and biographies is that their purpose is present a moral, an ethic, or a lesson. There is no need to turn the biography and history of Jesus, nor Paul's straightforward letters into a fantasy.

The Bible/Christianity can be taught exactly as it is, pointing out the literary style of each account AND its theme/lesson. Our ancestors knew how to tell memorable stories with themes and lessons, and that, it seems, is becoming a lost art.

 

[john54]

By any chance did you grow up being taught to take every Biblical account literally? You never learned to identify the various forms of literature in the Bible? If you haven't allow me to point them out:

• Just So Stories - Accounts of how how things came to be (pain in childbirth is an example.
• Fables - Stories where an animal (the story of the donkey comes to mind) takes on human attributes.
• Folklore - A non-scientific explanation of how walls fell down, or how the sun stopped its trajectory.
• Legends - Attributing amazing strength, possibly exhibited by a nobody, to a famous person (David and Goliath)
• Allegory - A story with a hidden meaning or moral (Job)
• Myth - Other gods with supernatural powers mentioned in the Bible - Asherah, Dagon, Marduk, Moloch, Zeus, Hermes...
• Apocalyptic Literature - Extravagant symbolism (Revelation, Daniel)

There are also historical accounts, laws, songs, poetry, proverbs in the Bible. What everything on the list has in common with what is considered more historical renderings and biographies is that their purpose is present a moral, an ethic, or a lesson. There is no need to turn the biography and history of Jesus, nor Paul's straightforward letters into a fantasy.

The Bible/Christianity can be taught exactly as it is, pointing out the literary style of each account AND its theme/lesson. Our ancestors knew how to tell memorable stories with themes and lessons, and that, it seems, is becoming a lost art.

Well lets take Acts 5 -
Just so story: After disputing with Peter and the disciples over money, Ananias and Sapphira both die separatley while alone in a room with Peter and the disciples, with no other witnesses. Peter claims God struck them down, and orders their bodies wrapped and disposed of outside before others can inspect them.

Myth: God smited Ananias and Sapphira

Reality: Peter and disciples killed Ananias and Sapphira and disposed of their bodies

Would it really be worth going over the fantasy and reality of every account, when there is so much dirty water buried under the bridge in these stories, when we can lay them to rest as fantasy and enjoy them for the fun stories? Why start asking where were the accounts of the 500 who witnessed Jesus walking on water, or who saw him rise from grave looking unrecognizable, or these other sort of sketchy stories. We don't need to dig up those graves and all that muck, we can just keep the good stories, but delight in the fantasy and mythological, fable etc elements like you mentioned.

 

[Meriweather]

Myth: God smited Ananias and Sapphira

Reality: Peter and disciples killed Ananias and Sapphira and disposed of their bodies

Truth: We don't know what happened, but we can speculate. Keep in mind, Middle Eastern religions hold a belief that nothing happens without it being the will of God. Another speculation is that the two were scared to death (perhaps by heart attack or stroke).

Killing would have been a very odd thing for Peter and the disciples to do, but I agree it is not outside the realm of speculation. Speculation is all is.

 

[Meriweather]

we can just keep the good stories, but delight in the fantasy and mythological, fable etc elements like you mentioned.

You stay in the shallows if it pleases you, but Christians are also interested in the depths. You seem to want to shut your eyes when it comes to the tougher parts. Some of us have no fear of approaching what is tough with eyes wide open.

 

[john54]

You stay in the shallows if it pleases you, but Christians are also interested in the depths. You seem to want to shut your eyes when it comes to the tougher parts. Some of us have no fear of approaching what is tough with eyes wide open.

Well it sounds like that's what the Christian enclave did when they swallowed the disciples' story that God smited the couple but no one else saw it.

Look, maybe they thought they were filled with the holy spirit and struck Ananias and Sapphira down in what they thought was God's name, so they just relayed thst it was God who killed them so people wouldn't misunderstand. Of course the problem here is that would make the disciples murderers and that wouldn't work in the kind of children's tales I had in mind. It just wouldn't be appropriate, to be frank.

But if the idea of going deep is only to swallow the tales and not question them, how deep are you really going? Isn't it deeper to recognize them more as jolly folklore abd leave it at that, and to explore the depths of the human spirit in a more secular context?

 

[Votto]

And I'm saying that may not be necessary. Perhaps Christians and atheists are more ready to join hands with just some tweaks to our thinking. You can do it. It's all up to you, okay? Make a little plan and you can change your life today. You don't have to spend your life addicted to feist, homeless on the street preaching the gospel of christ. Follow this plan and very soon you will say, it's okay to be gay. And most of the Bible has been proven to be a myth.

 

[john54]

Well at least tell me you got the sp reference. That was completely improv from memory