Zone1 A Bible Study Done in Good Faith - "In Jesus' Name"? Yes - for a time at least but there is more to the story....

Ace Nova

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The following is based on a Bible study and the remarks are strictly my opinion - and done in Good Faith...


Jesus consoles his Apostles:

John 16:


“A woman in labor suffers anguish

because her hour has come.

But when her baby is born,

she no longer recalls the suffering

because of her joy

that she has brought a child into the world.


22 In the same way,

you are now in anguish,

but I will see you again,

and your hearts will rejoice,

and no one shall deprive you of your joy.



23 “On that day,

you will not ask me anything further.

Amen, amen, I say to you,

if you ask the Father for anything in my name,

he will give it to you.



24 Until now, in my name,

you have not asked for anything.

Ask and you will receive,

so that your joy may be complete.



25 “I have used figures of speech

to explain these things to you.

The hour is coming

when I will no longer use figures,

but I will tell you about the Father in plain words.



26 When that day comes,

you will make requests in my name.

I do not say

that I will entreat the Father on your behalf.


27 For the Father himself loves you

because you have loved me

and have come to believe

that I came from God.




This passage describes an extremely emotional moment - full of sadness and despair - Jesus was consoling his Apostles - explaining that he was going to "leave the world" (He would be crucified the next day).


Out of an ultimate act of love - Jesus not wanting his Apostles to feel remorse and despair - blesses them, - in order for their "joy to be complete"... He tells them "Do not worry, although you won't be able to ask me anymore - anything you ask my Father, in my name, will be done - so that your joy can be complete".


This was a sacred gift given to the Apostles during one of their darkest moments - full of pain and despair. It was meant as a temporary act of love - to get them through their time of grief, by knowing that he is from God because God will provide anything asked in his name.


He immediately goes on to say, "Soon, I will no longer use figures of speech but will tell you directly. On that day, you will still ask in my name but by then, I will no longer intercede on your behalf." Because. by then, if you truly believe in me and love me, you will be able to ask the Father directly and he will provide because of your love and faith in me.


Now that you know the truth - why is every other word out of some folks mouths, "In Jesus' Name"? Out of respect? No, I think not.

Respect - in almost any society - would use a formal version "The Son" or even "The Christ". That is, if you truly believe, he is your Christ.


"In Jesus' Name" has only recently become over-used and abused - leading for it to be used in vain. Among some, it is used as some sort of "incantation" that can have power over people, demons, omens and so forth. That's not the way it works, folks! The name of the Son is not to be used as some sort of "magic spell". That is not what Christ intended when he gave the Apostles the sacred permission to invoke his name,


This deception, among many, came from only one source - The Spirit of The Adversary, Knowing that Jesus stated that there would be a time when he "would no longer need to intervene" on your behalf when using his name - because your faith and love would be enough to pray to the Father directly.

And yet, the Spirit of the Adversary becomes overjoyed when you continually blaspheme the name of the Son. Why? Because now you are dwelling in his realm. When you abuse the name - it is not Jesus or God answering your "incantation" - it is the adversary itself. And the adversary does not work for free - that is a debt that you will pay - one way or another.



Matthew 5:


“Therefore, when offering your gift at the altar, if you should remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there at the altar and first go to be reconciled with your brother. Then return and offer your gift.


25 “Come to terms quickly with your opponent while you are on the way to court with him. If you fail to do so, he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge will put you in the custody of the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Believe the truth of what I tell you: you will not be given your freedom until you have paid your debt down to the last penny.


God, in his Almighty Wisdom, foretold of these events through the prophet Isaiah:


Isaiah 65:



However, those of you who forsake the Lord

and forget my holy mountain,

who spread a table for Fortune[b]

and fill cups of mixed wine for Fate,



(Those that only pray "In Jesus Name" forgetting what Jesus instructed them to do - to pray to the Father. And those that use the term "In Jesus' Name" as some sort of "fortune" by filling cups of mixed wine (invoking Jesus' name but with no substance or works).


12 I will destine you for the sword,

and all of you will submit to the slaughter,

because, when I called, you did not respond,

and when I spoke, you refused to listen.

Rather, you did what was evil in my sight

and chose to do what displeases me.

13 Therefore, this is what I have decreed,

says the Lord God:

My servants will eat,

but you will go hungry;

my servants will drink,

but you will be thirsty;

my servants will rejoice,

but you will be put to shame;

14 with gladness in their hearts

my servants will sing for joy,

but you will cry out in heartfelt grief

and wail in your anguish of spirit.



Jesus warned us of this in Matthew 25:




1 The Solemn Judgment at the End of Time.[e]“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink; I was a stranger and you welcomed me; 36 I was naked and you clothed me; I was ill and you took care of me; I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


37 “Then the righteous will say to him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you something to eat, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and come to visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you did for me.’


41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat; I was thirsty and you did not give me anything to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me; I was naked and you did not give me any clothing; I was ill and in prison and you did not visit me.’


44 “Then they will ask him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison and not minister to you?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you failed to do for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you failed to do for me.’ 46 And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter eternal life.”


This is all those who have been deceived by the Adversary - those that believe that saying "In Jesus' Name" will automatically save them by Grace, Ignoring what God spoke through the prophets and what Jesus instructed us to do - Good Works for "The least of us".



Isaiah 65:

15 The Lord God will strike you dead

and his chosen ones will use your name as a curse,

but he will call his servants by a different name.

God is stating that Jesus would suffer and die for the sins of his people. Then people would abuse his name - use it as some sort of "incantation" (or curse).




Knowing this, God will call his servant by a different name - as written in Revelation 2:

17 “ ‘ “Whoever has ears should listen to what the Spirit says to the Churches. To anyone who is victorious I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone, upon which will be inscribed a new name, known only to the person who receives it.” ’



And in Revelation 3:

12 “ ‘ “Anyone who is victorious I will make into a pillar in the temple of my God, and never again will he depart from it. I will inscribe on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, as well as my own new name.[g]


16 Then anyone in the land who blesses himself

will bless himself by the God of truth,

and anyone who takes an oath in the land

will swear by the God of truth,

because the troubles of the past will be forgotten

and hidden from my sight.


This validates what Jesus told his Apostles in the Book of John - there will be a time when his followers will still use "his name" but Jesus will no longer intervene.

The first reason is that his earthly name has been abused, misused and corrupted by mankind - which leads him to having a new "heavenly name" . Now that the Spirit of Truth has arrived - the followers of Jesus who believed in him and loved him can pray directly to the Spirit of Truth. (God)


Jesus also stated in the book of John that the Spirit of Truth would arrive once he was gone.

In Mark 15:

While hanging on the Cross, Jesus cries out, "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?" - Confirming what was written in Isaiah - That "You will cry out in Anguish".


And finally in Isaiah 62:


You will be a glorious crown in the hand of the Lord,

a royal diadem held by your God.

4 No longer will you be called “Forsaken,”

nor will your land be known by the name “Desolate.”

Rather you will be called “My Delight Is in Her,”

and your land will be known as “Married.”

For the Lord will take delight in you,

and your land will be his spouse.

5 As a young man marries a virgin,

so will your builder marry you,

and as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride,

so will your God rejoice over you.



God is stating that although Jesus carried the sins of many, he would no longer be "Forsaken" - but now is "redeemed" - and soon to be "one" with the Father.



Matthew 28:


19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[a]



If our sins are forgiven through Baptism and we are Baptized "In The Name of The Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" We certainly can pray "In The Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"


Always remember - God is God - Father - Son - Holy Spirit - 3 Divine persons - One God. When Jesus was incarnated through the Immaculate Conception - he had "divinity" within him but was still a flesh and blood human - given an Earthly name.

When Jesus suffered death and was resurrected he became the Spirit of Christ - The Son of God in The Holy Trinity - He became a part of God - as his own person - The Earthly name "Jesus" would be highly inappropriate by this point, imo At the very least, he should be regarded as Jesus Christ.


At the end of the day- it is about understanding that God - Father - Son and Holy Spirit is far beyond us or even our comprehension. Having a personal relationship with Jesus is wonderful - and calling Jesus Christ, "Jesus" in personal prayer is absolutely fine. It's really not an issue until it is used as "In Jesus' Name" and used 95% of the time - used as "magic" vs prayer and overall, over-used.


And as you can see, God works on his own time and pace - Jesus already had a new heavenly name by the time he took his last breath on the Cross. So "idolizing" a specific name should never happen - especially among Christians. Christians should always have their eyes on God - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.


Please Don't take anything personally or take offense - this study was done in Good Faith - and please seek advice from your spiritual advisor or pastor before following any of the advice in this thread.




Amen! Amen! I say to you, Amen!
 
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The depth of your Obsession can be guaged by the length of your post .
If you Culttists need to explain yourselves at such length you have serious narrative problems

You will not attract a single person by a rambling and tedious dissertation .

What you will get is the opposite .
 
The depth of your Obsession can be guaged by the length of your post .
If you Culttists need to explain yourselves at such length you have serious narrative problems


You will not attract a single person by a rambling and tedious dissertation .

What you will get is the opposite .

This thread was not intended to "attract" anyone to the Faith - it was done in Good Faith for the faithful in Christ - so we can better understand the teachings of Jesus - and the nature of God.

This post would be a "graduate level" course of understanding - advanced - so no, it would not be intended for "the children" of the faith. (Newly Christian, etc)
 
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The following is based on a Bible study and the remarks are strictly my opinion - and done in Good Faith...
I was delighted you took the time to present this post. It is worth knowing that I am not alone in deploring 'God' and 'Jesus' being used as a curse and an exclamatory. "In Jesus' name..." admittedly has been a more minor annoyance as well. To me it makes no sense. How can we pray "in" something. What I understand (and better appreciate) is "Through Jesus Christ, our Lord..." This I can more easily picture as prayer moving through the Holy Spirit and Jesus to the Father.
The depth of your Obsession can be guaged by the length of your post .
If you Culttists need to explain yourselves at such length you have serious narrative problems

You will not attract a single person by a rambling and tedious dissertation .

What you will get is the opposite .
You are confusing 'obsession' with 'passion'. For example, are you obsessed with denigrating Christian beliefs or is something you are passionate about doing?

Ace Nova presented a Bible study on a point that some of us have been stumbling over. "In Jesus name" is such a point for me, and I have wondered why this might be. In reading the study Ace presented it is easy to see there were other Biblical passages remembered (at least subconsciously) that point in a different direction. Understanding my reaction to "in Jesus name" has given me one of those 'Ah Ha!' moments that result in peace.
 
- it was done in Good Faith for the faithful in Christ - so we can better understand the teachings of Jesus - and the nature of God.

jesus never claimed to be the jewish messiah ...

nor did 4th century christianity use the judean messiah to represent jesus rather one that fit their own narrative that is in every way the opposite of what jesus taught, liberation theology, self determination than the christian narrative of servitude and denial.
 
jesus never claimed to be the jewish messiah ...

nor did 4th century christianity use the judean messiah to represent jesus rather one that fit their own narrative that is in every way the opposite of what jesus taught, liberation theology, self determination than the christian narrative of servitude and denial.

You are correct - Jesus did not teach that he was the Messiah. It was through his teachings and works that OTHERS proclaimed him to be the Messiah - through their faith in God and through their understanding of what Jesus taught them.

Jesus understood fully the ways of the Father - The true "Messiah" would be revealed by witnesses NEVER by one proclaiming to be the Messiah himself/herself.

There were others proclaiming to be "The Messiah" during and after Jesus' ministry - one in particular was Simon Magus - Simon the Sorcerer - Simon The Magician. He proclaimed himself to be Jesus the Messiah among some - God the Father among others - and even The Holy Spirit among others.

Roman Emperor NERO accepted Simon Magus as his prophet - fulfilling what was written in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 13:

11 A Beast Rises from the Earth.[c] Then I saw another beast, this one rising up out of the earth. It had two horns like those of a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It wielded all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and it forced the earth and all its inhabitants to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. 13 It performed great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of all.

14 By the signs it was allowed to perform on behalf of the beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth, persuading them to erect an image for the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 It was permitted to give life to the beast’s image so that it could even speak and cause all those to be put to death who would not worship the image of the beast.

16 It also forced all the people, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be branded on the right hand or on the forehead. 17 No one could buy or sell anything except one who has been branded with the name of the beast or with the number of its name.

18 There is wisdom here. Let anyone who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person. The number is six hundred and sixty-six.


666 translates to CAESAR NERO in numerology. It is that simple - no need to dwell on conspiracy theories.

The false Prophet is Simon Magus who "stunned people by his magic, even making "stars fall from heaven".


Simon Magus is responsible for the "great divide" within the Christian Religion - IT IS HE AND ONLY HE THAT TAUGHT THAT PEOPLE COULD BE SAVED BY "HIS GRACE" AND HIS GRACE ALONE - REGARDLESS OF SIN OR WORKS.


IT WAS THROUGH HIM THAT THIS BLASPHEMY HAS CORRUPTED MANY CHRISTIANS SECTS - and has tragically mislead Saint Paul himself - leading to many disputes between Paul and Peter within the 1st century.

Could it be that the "Jesus" you think was Jesus is NO OTHER THAN SIMON MAGUS?

The Roman Catholic Church has been steadfast it its belief and teachings of Christ that it is by FAITH, GRACE AND WORKS that a person is Redeemed in Christ.

For all of you that believe that you can only be saved by grace....


YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED by Simon Magus - Simon the Sorcerer.
 
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Simon Magus is responsible for the "great divide" within the Christian Religion ...
IT WAS THROUGH HIM THAT THIS BLASPHEMY HAS CORRUPTED MANY CHRISTIANS SECTS - and has tragically mislead Saint Paul himself - leading to many disputes between Paul and Peter within the 1st century ...
Could it be that the "Jesus" you think was Jesus is NO OTHER THAN SIMON MAGUS?

that would be the crucifiers who wrote the christian bible used - simon magus - as jesus for their religion of servitude and denial. if s m ever existed or is simply the composite they created.

the 1st century events are based on liberation theology, self determination - no where found in the christian bible or spoken / written about in any of three desert religions.
 
The following is based on a Bible study and the remarks are strictly my opinion - and done in Good Faith...


Jesus consoles his Apostles:

John 16:


“A woman in labor suffers anguish

because her hour has come.

But when her baby is born,

she no longer recalls the suffering

because of her joy

that she has brought a child into the world.


22 In the same way,

you are now in anguish,

but I will see you again,

and your hearts will rejoice,

and no one shall deprive you of your joy.



23 “On that day,

you will not ask me anything further.

Amen, amen, I say to you,

if you ask the Father for anything in my name,

he will give it to you.



24 Until now, in my name,

you have not asked for anything.

Ask and you will receive,

so that your joy may be complete.



25 “I have used figures of speech

to explain these things to you.

The hour is coming

when I will no longer use figures,

but I will tell you about the Father in plain words.



26 When that day comes,

you will make requests in my name.

I do not say

that I will entreat the Father on your behalf.


27 For the Father himself loves you

because you have loved me

and have come to believe

that I came from God.




This passage describes an extremely emotional moment - full of sadness and despair - Jesus was consoling his Apostles - explaining that he was going to "leave the world" (He would be crucified the next day).


Out of an ultimate act of love - Jesus not wanting his Apostles to feel remorse and despair - blesses them, - in order for their "joy to be complete"... He tells them "Do not worry, although you won't be able to ask me anymore - anything you ask my Father, in my name, will be done - so that your joy can be complete".


This was a sacred gift given to the Apostles during one of their darkest moments - full of pain and despair. It was meant as a temporary act of love - to get them through their time of grief, by knowing that he is from God because God will provide anything asked in his name.


He immediately goes on to say, "Soon, I will no longer use figures of speech but will tell you directly. On that day, you will still ask in my name but by then, I will no longer intercede on your behalf." Because. by then, if you truly believe in me and love me, you will be able to ask the Father directly and he will provide because of your love and faith in me.


Now that you know the truth - why is every other word out of some folks mouths, "In Jesus' Name"? Out of respect? No, I think not.

Respect - in almost any society - would use a formal version "The Son" or even "The Christ". That is, if you truly believe, he is your Christ.


"In Jesus' Name" has only recently become over-used and abused - leading for it to be used in vain. Among some, it is used as some sort of "incantation" that can have power over people, demons, omens and so forth. That's not the way it works, folks! The name of the Son is not to be used as some sort of "magic spell". That is not what Christ intended when he gave the Apostles the sacred permission to invoke his name,


This deception, among many, came from only one source - The Spirit of The Adversary, Knowing that Jesus stated that there would be a time when he "would no longer need to intervene" on your behalf when using his name - because your faith and love would be enough to pray to the Father directly.

And yet, the Spirit of the Adversary becomes overjoyed when you continually blaspheme the name of the Son. Why? Because now you are dwelling in his realm. When you abuse the name - it is not Jesus or God answering your "incantation" - it is the adversary itself. And the adversary does not work for free - that is a debt that you will pay - one way or another.



Matthew 5:


“Therefore, when offering your gift at the altar, if you should remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there at the altar and first go to be reconciled with your brother. Then return and offer your gift.


25 “Come to terms quickly with your opponent while you are on the way to court with him. If you fail to do so, he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge will put you in the custody of the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Believe the truth of what I tell you: you will not be given your freedom until you have paid your debt down to the last penny.


God, in his Almighty Wisdom, foretold of these events through the prophet Isaiah:


Isaiah 65:



However, those of you who forsake the Lord

and forget my holy mountain,

who spread a table for Fortune[b]

and fill cups of mixed wine for Fate,



(Those that only pray "In Jesus Name" forgetting what Jesus instructed them to do - to pray to the Father. And those that use the term "In Jesus' Name" as some sort of "fortune" by filling cups of mixed wine (invoking Jesus' name but with no substance or works).


12 I will destine you for the sword,

and all of you will submit to the slaughter,

because, when I called, you did not respond,

and when I spoke, you refused to listen.

Rather, you did what was evil in my sight

and chose to do what displeases me.

13 Therefore, this is what I have decreed,

says the Lord God:

My servants will eat,

but you will go hungry;

my servants will drink,

but you will be thirsty;

my servants will rejoice,

but you will be put to shame;

14 with gladness in their hearts

my servants will sing for joy,

but you will cry out in heartfelt grief

and wail in your anguish of spirit.



Jesus warned us of this in Matthew 25:




1 The Solemn Judgment at the End of Time.[e]“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink; I was a stranger and you welcomed me; 36 I was naked and you clothed me; I was ill and you took care of me; I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


37 “Then the righteous will say to him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you something to eat, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and come to visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you did for me.’


41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat; I was thirsty and you did not give me anything to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me; I was naked and you did not give me any clothing; I was ill and in prison and you did not visit me.’


44 “Then they will ask him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison and not minister to you?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you failed to do for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you failed to do for me.’ 46 And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter eternal life.”


This is all those who have been deceived by the Adversary - those that believe that saying "In Jesus' Name" will automatically save them by Grace, Ignoring what God spoke through the prophets and what Jesus instructed us to do - Good Works for "The least of us".



Isaiah 65:

15 The Lord God will strike you dead

and his chosen ones will use your name as a curse,

but he will call his servants by a different name.

God is stating that Jesus would suffer and die for the sins of his people. Then people would abuse his name - use it as some sort of "incantation" (or curse).




Knowing this, God will call his servant by a different name - as written in Revelation 2:

17 “ ‘ “Whoever has ears should listen to what the Spirit says to the Churches. To anyone who is victorious I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone, upon which will be inscribed a new name, known only to the person who receives it.” ’



And in Revelation 3:

12 “ ‘ “Anyone who is victorious I will make into a pillar in the temple of my God, and never again will he depart from it. I will inscribe on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, as well as my own new name.[g]


16 Then anyone in the land who blesses himself

will bless himself by the God of truth,

and anyone who takes an oath in the land

will swear by the God of truth,

because the troubles of the past will be forgotten

and hidden from my sight.


This validates what Jesus told his Apostles in the Book of John - there will be a time when his followers will still use "his name" but Jesus will no longer intervene.

The first reason is that his earthly name has been abused, misused and corrupted by mankind - which leads him to having a new "heavenly name" . Now that the Spirit of Truth has arrived - the followers of Jesus who believed in him and loved him can pray directly to the Spirit of Truth. (God)


Jesus also stated in the book of John that the Spirit of Truth would arrive once he was gone.

In Mark 15:

While hanging on the Cross, Jesus cries out, "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?" - Confirming what was written in Isaiah - That "You will cry out in Anguish".


And finally in Isaiah 62:


You will be a glorious crown in the hand of the Lord,

a royal diadem held by your God.

4 No longer will you be called “Forsaken,”

nor will your land be known by the name “Desolate.”

Rather you will be called “My Delight Is in Her,”

and your land will be known as “Married.”

For the Lord will take delight in you,

and your land will be his spouse.

5 As a young man marries a virgin,

so will your builder marry you,

and as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride,

so will your God rejoice over you.



God is stating that although Jesus carried the sins of many, he would no longer be "Forsaken" - but now is "redeemed" - and soon to be "one" with the Father.



Matthew 28:


19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[a]



If our sins are forgiven through Baptism and we are Baptized "In The Name of The Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" We certainly can pray "In The Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"


Always remember - God is God - Father - Son - Holy Spirit - 3 Divine persons - One God. When Jesus was incarnated through the Immaculate Conception - he had "divinity" within him but was still a flesh and blood human - given an Earthly name.

When Jesus suffered death and was resurrected he became the Spirit of Christ - The Son of God in The Holy Trinity - He became a part of God - as his own person - The Earthly name "Jesus" would be highly inappropriate by this point, imo At the very least, he should be regarded as Jesus Christ.


At the end of the day- it is about understanding that God - Father - Son and Holy Spirit is far beyond us or even our comprehension. Having a personal relationship with Jesus is wonderful - and calling Jesus Christ, "Jesus" in personal prayer is absolutely fine. It's really not an issue until it is used as "In Jesus' Name" and used 95% of the time - used as "magic" vs prayer and overall, over-used.


And as you can see, God works on his own time and pace - Jesus already had a new heavenly name by the time he took his last breath on the Cross. So "idolizing" a specific name should never happen - especially among Christians. Christians should always have their eyes on God - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.


Please Don't take anything personally or take offense - this study was done in Good Faith - and please seek advice from your spiritual advisor or pastor before following any of the advice in this thread.




Amen! Amen! I say to you, Amen!
Do, I agree with others when you write a book, you better hope people want to finish the book. The premise of all this is to get people to believe JWs version of who Jesus Christ is and isn't according to your scholars. So, you attempt to get away from Jesus being the Son of God after his crucifixion or atonement. You also want us to believe that Jehovah is not the Son, but the Father by saying we no longer have to pray to the Father in the name of the Son. You highlighted John 16:26-27 trying to prove we no longer do this. I do not see where these verses say that. 26 When that day comes, you will make requests in my name. I do not say that I will entreat the Father on your behalf. 27 For the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have come to believe that I came from God.

He does not say he won't entreat either. Remember, you even said it, this is for the apostles only. Not the every day saint (disciple). In fact, later, James says to pray to the Father in the name of the Son with real intent, faith not waivering and not with a double mind. So, why would the apostles not need faith in Christ anymore? Because they had their calling and election made sure when he appeared to them in the room with no windows, showed him his wounds and caused no more doubt. In our Church, we call that having your calling and election made sure. You no longer go through life with faith. You now have a sure knowledge that others don't. From time to time, people are given this calling and election made sure. But, we still pray to the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ. Father is Elohim and not Jehovah. Jehovah is Jesus Christ.
 
Wrong. You and your like are steadily coming to an end. Enjoy the ride - You Frauds!
that would be the crucifiers who wrote the christian bible used - simon magus - as jesus for their religion of servitude and denial. if s m ever existed or is simply the composite they created.

they would not serve the jews and repudiated their false commandments and hereditary idolatry, jesus and those others that gave their lives in the 1st century for their heavenly beliefs made for them in the beginning by the heavens as the true religion for admission to the everlasting - no where found in any desert religion bible. nor known by ace nova.
 
they would not serve the jews and repudiated their false commandments and hereditary idolatry, jesus and those others that gave their lives in the 1st century for their heavenly beliefs made for them in the beginning by the heavens as the true religion for admission to the everlasting - no where found in any desert religion bible. nor known by ace nova.
I admire and respect your resolve Breeze.

You have been and are deeply hurt by what humanity (Not Rome or anyone else) did during the first century.

Moses - or "Rome" or "The crucifiers" are not your gripe. Your gripe is against the the one who caused what you despise. No one else. And certainly not a specific group of people.

Mankind is incredible - but at the end of the day is not Man a Host?

Think about the question I ask you.
 
that would be the crucifiers who wrote the christian bible used - simon magus - as jesus for their religion of servitude and denial. if s m ever existed or is simply the composite they created.

the 1st century events are based on liberation theology, self determination - no where found in the christian bible or spoken / written about in any of three desert religions.

How are you going to tell me these things?

Yes - Yes and Yes - it was about everything you state. But it was so much more.
 
Yes - Yes and Yes - it was about everything you state. But it was so much more.

really, so far you haven't mentioned anything of substance than vague references of indeterminate origins ...

Wrong. You and your like are steadily coming to an end. Enjoy the ride - You Frauds!
they would not serve the jews and repudiated their false commandments and hereditary idolatry, jesus and those others ....

give it a shot ace, provide your makebelieve commandments claimed by the likes of the liar moses ... "we're" certain not to be hearing back from you any too soon - or ever with your proof.
 
really, so far you haven't mentioned anything of substance than vague references of indeterminate origins ...




give it a shot ace, provide your makebelieve commandments claimed by the likes of the liar moses ... "we're" certain not to be hearing back from you any too soon - or ever with your proof.

Matthew 22:

34 The Greatest Commandment.[j] When the Pharisees learned that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and, to test him, one of them, a lawyer, asked this question, 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Everything in the Law and the Prophets depends on these two commandments.”
 
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Everything in the Law and the Prophets depends on these two commandments.”
- or ever with your proof.

as predicted, ner be the stone tablets claimed by the liar moses ... used by christianity the desert religions to persecute and victimize the innocent - ace nova.

the 1st century events were liberation theology, self termination the repudiation of judaism the religions of servitude and denial - wake up sinner there is nothing for you to love as abraham the liar, heredity idolatry is what dowels in your spirit than the heavens.
 
as predicted, ner be the stone tablets claimed by the liar moses ... used by christianity the desert religions to persecute and victimize the innocent - ace nova.

the 1st century events were liberation theology, self termination the repudiation of judaism the religions of servitude and denial - wake up sinner there is nothing for you to love as abraham the liar, heredity idolatry is what dowels in your spirit than the heavens.
John 8:

48 The Jews answered, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and are possessed?” 49 Jesus said,

“I am not possessed.
I honor my Father,
but you dishonor me.
50 I do not seek my own glory.
There is one who seeks it,
and he is the judge.
51 Amen, amen, I say to you,
whoever keeps my word
will never see death.”
52 The Jews retorted, “Now we are positive that you are possessed. Abraham died, and the Prophets are dead. Yet you say, ‘Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He is dead, and the Prophets are also dead. Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered,

“If I glorify myself,
that glory is of no value.
It is my Father who glorifies me,
the one about whom you say,
‘He is our God,’
55 even though you do not know him.
However, I do know him.
If I would say
that I do not know him,
I would be a liar like you.
But I do know him,
and I keep his word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced
that he would see my day.
He saw it and was glad.”[a]
57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old. How can you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus responded,

“Amen, amen, I say to you,
before Abraham was,
I AM.”[b]


Was Jesus telling everyone that he was "I AM"? No - he was referring to scripture that states that God - The God of Moses - The God of Abraham revealed himself as "I AM who I AM" to Moses.
(He Who Is, He Who Will Be, I am the Existing One) This is who sent him - His Father - Jesus did what God instructed Moses to do in Exodus 3:

13 God Reveals His Name.[g] Moses said to God, “If I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors sent me to you,’ but they say to me, ‘What is his name,’ what should I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM who I AM.”[h]

Then he said, “You will say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM sent me to you.’ ” 15 God also said to Moses, “You will say to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, sent me to you.’ This is my name forever. This is the title with which I will be remembered from one generation to the next.”


"Amen, Amen, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (Before Abraham - He Who Is - (God) - Exists.)
 
jesus never claimed to be the jewish messiah ...

nor did 4th century christianity use the judean messiah to represent jesus rather one that fit their own narrative that is in every way the opposite of what jesus taught, liberation theology, self determination than the christian narrative of servitude and denial.
Jesus was clearly a rebel, not an enslaver.
 
You are correct - Jesus did not teach that he was the Messiah. It was through his teachings and works that OTHERS proclaimed him to be the Messiah - through their faith in God and through their understanding of what Jesus taught them.

Jesus understood fully the ways of the Father - The true "Messiah" would be revealed by witnesses NEVER by one proclaiming to be the Messiah himself/herself.

There were others proclaiming to be "The Messiah" during and after Jesus' ministry - one in particular was Simon Magus - Simon the Sorcerer - Simon The Magician. He proclaimed himself to be Jesus the Messiah among some - God the Father among others - and even The Holy Spirit among others.

Roman Emperor NERO accepted Simon Magus as his prophet - fulfilling what was written in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 13:

11 A Beast Rises from the Earth.[c] Then I saw another beast, this one rising up out of the earth. It had two horns like those of a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It wielded all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and it forced the earth and all its inhabitants to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. 13 It performed great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of all.

14 By the signs it was allowed to perform on behalf of the beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth, persuading them to erect an image for the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 It was permitted to give life to the beast’s image so that it could even speak and cause all those to be put to death who would not worship the image of the beast.

16 It also forced all the people, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be branded on the right hand or on the forehead. 17 No one could buy or sell anything except one who has been branded with the name of the beast or with the number of its name.

18 There is wisdom here. Let anyone who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person. The number is six hundred and sixty-six.


666 translates to CAESAR NERO in numerology. It is that simple - no need to dwell on conspiracy theories.

The false Prophet is Simon Magus who "stunned people by his magic, even making "stars fall from heaven".


Simon Magus is responsible for the "great divide" within the Christian Religion - IT IS HE AND ONLY HE THAT TAUGHT THAT PEOPLE COULD BE SAVED BY "HIS GRACE" AND HIS GRACE ALONE - REGARDLESS OF SIN OR WORKS.


IT WAS THROUGH HIM THAT THIS BLASPHEMY HAS CORRUPTED MANY CHRISTIANS SECTS - and has tragically mislead Saint Paul himself - leading to many disputes between Paul and Peter within the 1st century.

Could it be that the "Jesus" you think was Jesus is NO OTHER THAN SIMON MAGUS?

The Roman Catholic Church has been steadfast it its belief and teachings of Christ that it is by FAITH, GRACE AND WORKS that a person is Redeemed in Christ.

For all of you that believe that you can only be saved by grace....


YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED by Simon Magus - Simon the Sorcerer.
jesus clearly idenfied himself as the saviour.

you're just making stuff up.
 
yes for a time what?

quite deleting stuff from thread tyrant.
 
IN jesus's name I send forth the the power of the holy spirit and the archangel Michael to conquer all enemies of goodness, amen.
 
jesus clearly idenfied himself as the saviour.

you're just making stuff up.

Please quote it. . Jesus had his followers identify him as a prophet and eventually "The Son of God/Christ" first - even after he was know to his followers as the Son of God and/or Christ, he would typically refer to the "Son of Man" in 3rd person - as if he was a separate entity. He would also specifically tell them not to tell others what they thought of him for various reasons - the primary reason being is that he wanted people to follow him because of his teachings and works - not because others said he was The Son of God or Christ.

The second reason is that he knew it would cause havoc with the religious leaders at the time and he did not want things to become unsettled before "everything he came to do was accomplished". After his followers believed he was from God, he became more direct with them but usually stating that it was "Their faith" that allowed them to see and understand who he was.

Even when the religious leaders knew his followers considered him the Son of God, he would rarely (if ever) answer them directly or say he was "The Son of God" - he would give them examples and answer their questions with authority - "As if" he were the Son of God - and eventually - days before his passion and crucifixion, he became,somewhat more direct about it. But even when confronted by Pilate and asked if he was "The Son of God or Messiah" Jesus responded, "You say I am". To Jesus, his ministry, teachings and works - his path to salvation and God was based on people believing that he was from God then believing that through their understanding of his teachings and their faith, that all things are possible with God.
 
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