30 Years of Class War

[Skull Pilot]

The rich guy owes the jobs to the society that made him rich.

More of your entitlement attitude.

Why aren't you railing at the government and society for stopping 20,000 new "good" jobs for a much needed pipeline?

Your so called society is telling companies that they do not want jobs so these companies will go where jobs are wanted.

Why are you so willing to potentially destroy our natural resources and our environment? Why is it all or nothing with you guys? I find it amusing that a small country like Denmark can virtually run their whole country on Green energy, but the greatest country in the world is stuck with 1950's technology because very rich people don't want to change.

So you don't want new jobs.

And who says a pipeline from Canada will destroy the environment?

More hysterical bullshit with no basis in fact.

Don't even talk about energy independence until you put nuclear power on the table in a meaningful way. France gets nearly 80% of its power from nukes so why can't we?

I'll tell you why. It's hysterical sheep like you that watched the China Syndrome 40 years ago

 

[Steelplate]

More of your entitlement attitude.

Why aren't you railing at the government and society for stopping 20,000 new "good" jobs for a much needed pipeline?

Your so called society is telling companies that they do not want jobs so these companies will go where jobs are wanted.

Why are you so willing to potentially destroy our natural resources and our environment? Why is it all or nothing with you guys? I find it amusing that a small country like Denmark can virtually run their whole country on Green energy, but the greatest country in the world is stuck with 1950's technology because very rich people don't want to change.

So you don't want new jobs.

And who says a pipeline from Canada will destroy the environment?

More hysterical bullshit with no basis in fact.

Don't even talk about energy independence until you put nuclear power on the table in a meaningful way. France gets nearly 80% of its power from nukes so why can't we?

I'll tell you why. It's hysterical sheep like you that watched the China Syndrome 40 years ago

who said I was against nukes? Oh... that's right... YOU. My only question is this... where do we store the waste that takes a century or so to stop being dangerous? You give me a reasonable answer on that and I am not only supportive, but fully on board.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why are you so willing to potentially destroy our natural resources and our environment? Why is it all or nothing with you guys? I find it amusing that a small country like Denmark can virtually run their whole country on Green energy, but the greatest country in the world is stuck with 1950's technology because very rich people don't want to change.

So you don't want new jobs.

And who says a pipeline from Canada will destroy the environment?

More hysterical bullshit with no basis in fact.

Don't even talk about energy independence until you put nuclear power on the table in a meaningful way. France gets nearly 80% of its power from nukes so why can't we?

I'll tell you why. It's hysterical sheep like you that watched the China Syndrome 40 years ago

who said I was against nukes? Oh... that's right... YOU. My only question is this... where do we store the waste that takes a century or so to stop being dangerous? You give me a reasonable answer on that and I am not only supportive, but fully on board.

There is very little so called nuclear waste that cannot be recycled.

There Is No Such Thing as Nuclear Waste - WSJ.com

But we have outlawed the recycling of nuclear material in this country and by doing so have cut our own throats by effectively stopping the use of nuclear power and by voluntarily opting out of the hugely profitable industry of medical and commercial isotope production

So you see once again "society" has told business that they don't really want jobs and industry in this country.

 

[georgephillip]

That rich guy does NOT owe you a job.

The rich guy owes the jobs to the society that made him rich.

More of your entitlement attitude.

Why aren't you railing at the government and society for stopping 20,000 new "good" jobs for a much needed pipeline?

Your so called society is telling companies that they do not want jobs so these companies will go where jobs are wanted.

Do you see any democracy entitlement in this country?
If so, does democracy end at the workplace door?

German labor unions have voting members sitting on the boards of directors of the corporations they work for. This is primarily why German jobs did not follow US jobs to Communist China. Democracy in action.

I'm not qualified to assess the financial or health risks of making liquid fuels from oil sands; however, if it's true the steam injection and refining process generates two to four times the amount of greenhouse gases per barrel as the production of conventional oil does, any private economic profits might be offset by increased public health and clean up expenses.

Privatize the profit and socialize the cost, right?

Oil sands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bfgrn]

More of your entitlement attitude.

Why aren't you railing at the government and society for stopping 20,000 new "good" jobs for a much needed pipeline?

Your so called society is telling companies that they do not want jobs so these companies will go where jobs are wanted.

Why are you so willing to potentially destroy our natural resources and our environment? Why is it all or nothing with you guys? I find it amusing that a small country like Denmark can virtually run their whole country on Green energy, but the greatest country in the world is stuck with 1950's technology because very rich people don't want to change.

So you don't want new jobs.

And who says a pipeline from Canada will destroy the environment?

More hysterical bullshit with no basis in fact.

Don't even talk about energy independence until you put nuclear power on the table in a meaningful way. France gets nearly 80% of its power from nukes so why can't we?

I'll tell you why. It's hysterical sheep like you that watched the China Syndrome 40 years ago

China Syndrome 40 years ago? Maybe you should stick with the REAL world...

5 countries joining Japan in rethinking nuclear energy

Germany
Switzerland
Italy
Mexico
France

More

Yea skull, you will create 30 year jobs though...

First glimpse inside Fukushima... where workers will spend the next 30 years dismantling its nuclear reactors

* There are up to 3,300 workers a day arriving at the nuclear plant

* Every day after work they discard their protective clothing, which is treated as radioactive waste

Read more: Fukushima nuclear power plant: 1st glimpse inside | Mail Online

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yeah we should have no nuclear power because a tsunami will hit Nebraska.

You want to talk about the future how about the new mini nuke power plants that don't need huge volumes of water and can power up to 20000 homes for 20 years?

The fact is that you people don't want to consider new nuclear technology because you naively think windmills will meet our growing power needs.

 

[eflatminor]

That's over a trillion dollars a year of after-tax income that would be going to the other 99% if it weren't for 30 years of tax cuts and deregulation.

Your ignorance is showing georgieboy...or maybe it's your IQ, I can't say for sure.

Tells us exactly HOW that wealth would have gone to other people if not for forcibly taking it through government backed wealth redistribution?

You talk as tough wealth is static, a fixed amount to be shared by the populace at any given point in time. Sorry but you're wrong about that. Wealth can be created or destroyed. That the top income earners gained more wealth over time does NOT mean they kept it from another percentile of income earners...unless of course you believe wealth is something that must be shared rather than earned or lost. Which is it georgieboy?

And while you're ragging on deregulation, please tells how regulations made airline ticket prices and route choices better before we partly deregulated the airline industry. Can't wait to hear your retort on that one!

 

[georgephillip]

Not only that George... but the surest path to our economic doom is to keep minimizing labor. Most people can barely keep their heads above water these days, more and more people can't afford the gadgets that keep millionaires and billionaires in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to.

The banks are in collusion with those millionaires and billionaires. They offered easy credit to everyday people because they saw this trend of working people having less... Kid wants an Xbox for Christmas...Charge it.... pay it over time. How many Credit card offers do you get in a week? How many "Capital One" commercials do you see on TV? Personal Credit and debt is the Right wings answer to paying a livable wage and keeping costs of products down. They can't do either of those things, because that makes THEIR profits and their own personal earnings less. It's no skin off their noses if the vast majority of the American Public goes into hock up to their ears....until they can't get credit anymore, but by that time... they are betting that they can open up new markets abroad to make up for our lack of spending power. In short, they are abandoning us. They are the anti-American Traitors... and "Conservatives" are more than willing to help them in their cause.

When the "Great Divergence" began in the 1970s "cheap" credit took the place of labor's share in rising US productivity gains. I remember well receiving multiple "pre-approved" credit card applications, and I could never understand how someone (myself) who had never earned over $18,000 in a year (with multiple years of $0) earned would be considered credit worthy.

But then again I had never heard of mortgage backed securities or credit default swaps either.

There are some indications the corporate need for mass affluence is over.
Corporate sales are global. If the richest 20% of humanity world-wide can afford to consume regularly, those are the only consumers corporations need to think about. I don't think I'm the only one who finds that undemocratic, at least.

There may well be treason involved in Pentagon accounting frauds.
September 10, 2001 Rumsfeld admitted there were trillion$ unaccounted for from Pentagon accounts.
The next day "everything Changed."
Or did it?

The Big Economic Crash is still in front of us, I believe.
If it has to come, November of 2012 would be our best change for real Change (and Hope).

 

[editec]

CLASS STRUGGLE is part and parcel of civilization. THAT is unavoidable

Every policy in any society that is not flat (ie is not classless) will effect the different classes within that society differently. There is really NO avoiding that reality.

Here's the thing about the term "class WAR".

It is like beauty -- it exists in the eyes of the beholder.

So when exactly does a class struggle really become class war?

Right now. many people in the middle class feel that they have been rode hard and put away wet by the MASTERS. (they're right, of course)

Why the change in attitude?

Previously if you'd asked most middle class people, they wouldn't have even believed there WERE classes in America.

We've recently read people posts here insisting that there are no classes in America, have we not?

REAL class WAR doesn't start until the society openly goes to war based on CLASS.

What the middle and lower classes are facing now is really CLASS BETRAYAL by the MASTERS and their tools.

The masters betrayed the res tof the nation by advincing policies that benefited them, at the expense of their fellow CITIZENS and the nation as a whole.

It's not class WAR...not yet.

Hopefully, not ever.

There is much we can do to pour oil on the troubled waters of this Republic.

But the first thing we have got to do is acknowledge that we are first AMERICANS, and then members of a class within that society that ALSO has rights and RESPONSIBLITIES.

What is the responsibility of the MASTERS? -- to oversee the nations well being. Of late it appears they are abandoning that obligation.

What is the responsibility of the REST OF SOCIETY? -- to obey the laws, to work and to pay taxes, and in time of crises? To send their sons and daughters to war in defence of the ENTIRE NATION.

Well, the lower classes have always done THEIR DUTY.

It's time for the MASTERS to do THEIRS.

Nothing the GOP is advancing is consistent with that premise.

FWIW, very little the DNC is advancing is a whole lot better.

The masters need to remember who made them wealth; whose labors they benefitted from; whose children died for them; and who ultimately the nation belongs to.

The Republic belongs to ALL OF US

This REPUBLIC belong to the people EN MASSE, not just the wealthy and their loyal tools.

If we continue to fail to recognize this social contract, then the USA is ultimately doomed to become (at best) a third world nation.

If your definition of "social contract" includes the notion that all governments result from a voluntary agreement among all people to form one, the principle that says each person carries equal weight in the conduct of the public business doesn't seem to exist in our Republic.

The social contract seems to offer a solution; the people have the right (obligation?) to form an entirely new government if the terms of the contract are being violated by the existing one.

FLUSH Republicans AND Democrats from DC in November 2012.

I couldn't POSSIBLY express my POV more concisely than this, George

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG5e1oaen-M]Leonard Cohen - Everybody Knows - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[georgephillip]

That's over a trillion dollars a year of after-tax income that would be going to the other 99% if it weren't for 30 years of tax cuts and deregulation.

Your ignorance is showing georgieboy...or maybe it's your IQ, I can't say for sure.

Tells us exactly HOW that wealth would have gone to other people if not for forcibly taking it through government backed wealth redistribution?

You talk as tough wealth is static, a fixed amount to be shared by the populace at any given point in time. Sorry but you're wrong about that. Wealth can be created or destroyed. That the top income earners gained more wealth over time does NOT mean they kept it from another percentile of income earners...unless of course you believe wealth is something that must be shared rather than earned or lost. Which is it georgieboy?

And while you're ragging on deregulation, please tells how regulations made airline ticket prices and route choices better before we partly deregulated the airline industry. Can't wait to hear your retort on that one!

After-tax income not wealth, Einstein.

Here's a link from my source.

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

Beginning about thirty years ago US incomes began to flat-line for most workers.
Jobs were outsourced.
Banking regulations were repealed.
Tax burdens were shifted from FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector incomes to wage labor.

Would you agree all of the above qualify as "government backed wealth redistribution?"

Are you arguing that because airline deregulation proved beneficial it follows that all deregulation is equally useful to society? Are you calling for repeal of all motor vehicle regulations?

 

[eflatminor]

That's over a trillion dollars a year of after-tax income that would be going to the other 99% if it weren't for 30 years of tax cuts and deregulation.

Your ignorance is showing georgieboy...or maybe it's your IQ, I can't say for sure.

Tells us exactly HOW that wealth would have gone to other people if not for forcibly taking it through government backed wealth redistribution?

You talk as tough wealth is static, a fixed amount to be shared by the populace at any given point in time. Sorry but you're wrong about that. Wealth can be created or destroyed. That the top income earners gained more wealth over time does NOT mean they kept it from another percentile of income earners...unless of course you believe wealth is something that must be shared rather than earned or lost. Which is it georgieboy?

And while you're ragging on deregulation, please tells how regulations made airline ticket prices and route choices better before we partly deregulated the airline industry. Can't wait to hear your retort on that one!

After-tax income not wealth, Einstein.

Here's a link from my source.

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

Beginning about thirty years ago US incomes began to flat-line for most workers.
Jobs were outsourced.
Banking regulations were repealed.
Tax burdens were shifted from FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector incomes to wage labor.

Would you agree all of the above qualify as "government backed wealth redistribution?"

Are you arguing that because airline deregulation proved beneficial it follows that all deregulation is equally useful to society? Are you calling for repeal of all motor vehicle regulations?

Same question stands. After tax wealth increases for a segment of the population...so what? How does that hurt anyone else...unless of course there is some "right" from a different segment of the population for a piece of that wealth. Are you saying that's the case?

Outsourcing of jobs is a business decision based on salary costs, union influence, health care requirements...you know, BUSINESS decisions. It has NOTHING to do with "redistribution", which only the government can do.

Lastly, yes, I'm arguing that because we see increased competition, and therefore lower prices and more choice for consumers, we should similarly deregulate other segments of the economy burdened by unnecessary and job killing federal regulations. If it worked so beautifully for the airline industry, why not others?

 

[georgephillip]

CLASS STRUGGLE is part and parcel of civilization. THAT is unavoidable

Every policy in any society that is not flat (ie is not classless) will effect the different classes within that society differently. There is really NO avoiding that reality.

Here's the thing about the term "class WAR".

It is like beauty -- it exists in the eyes of the beholder.

So when exactly does a class struggle really become class war?

Right now. many people in the middle class feel that they have been rode hard and put away wet by the MASTERS. (they're right, of course)

Why the change in attitude?

Previously if you'd asked most middle class people, they wouldn't have even believed there WERE classes in America.

We've recently read people posts here insisting that there are no classes in America, have we not?

REAL class WAR doesn't start until the society openly goes to war based on CLASS.

What the middle and lower classes are facing now is really CLASS BETRAYAL by the MASTERS and their tools.

The masters betrayed the res tof the nation by advincing policies that benefited them, at the expense of their fellow CITIZENS and the nation as a whole.

It's not class WAR...not yet.

Hopefully, not ever.

There is much we can do to pour oil on the troubled waters of this Republic.

But the first thing we have got to do is acknowledge that we are first AMERICANS, and then members of a class within that society that ALSO has rights and RESPONSIBLITIES.

What is the responsibility of the MASTERS? -- to oversee the nations well being. Of late it appears they are abandoning that obligation.

What is the responsibility of the REST OF SOCIETY? -- to obey the laws, to work and to pay taxes, and in time of crises? To send their sons and daughters to war in defence of the ENTIRE NATION.

Well, the lower classes have always done THEIR DUTY.

It's time for the MASTERS to do THEIRS.

Nothing the GOP is advancing is consistent with that premise.

FWIW, very little the DNC is advancing is a whole lot better.

The masters need to remember who made them wealth; whose labors they benefitted from; whose children died for them; and who ultimately the nation belongs to.

The Republic belongs to ALL OF US

This REPUBLIC belong to the people EN MASSE, not just the wealthy and their loyal tools.

If we continue to fail to recognize this social contract, then the USA is ultimately doomed to become (at best) a third world nation.

If your definition of "social contract" includes the notion that all governments result from a voluntary agreement among all people to form one, the principle that says each person carries equal weight in the conduct of the public business doesn't seem to exist in our Republic.

The social contract seems to offer a solution; the people have the right (obligation?) to form an entirely new government if the terms of the contract are being violated by the existing one.

FLUSH Republicans AND Democrats from DC in November 2012.

I couldn't POSSIBLY express my POV more concisely than this, George

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG5e1oaen-M]Leonard Cohen - Everybody Knows - YouTube[/ame]​

"Q: There seems to be a growing sense of urgency, a feeling that Washington quickly needs to find solutions for our national problems and stop dwelling on partisan differences. Do you see the upcoming election as pivotal in some way?

A: I do.

"The government is paralyzed.

"Our government is just not working.

"If the election continues the status quo, we are in trouble.

"Our political system has gotten us into such a mess that we can't solve our problems. This happened once before when the political system broke down and could not work to bridge differences, and the result was a disastrous civil war...

"They (political parties) are going to be finished unless we can settle the deep and divisive issues that are taking us down. This election should be opportunity for the people to take the bridge of the ship and say to the captain, 'That's an iceberg out there, turn the ship."

PBS Host Moyers: Government Failing Americans | Common Dreams

The Republicans ain't scared of no damn iceberg and the Democrats think they can swim like polar bears.

What's to worry...except for the Civil War part.

 

[georgephillip]

Your ignorance is showing georgieboy...or maybe it's your IQ, I can't say for sure.

Tells us exactly HOW that wealth would have gone to other people if not for forcibly taking it through government backed wealth redistribution?

You talk as tough wealth is static, a fixed amount to be shared by the populace at any given point in time. Sorry but you're wrong about that. Wealth can be created or destroyed. That the top income earners gained more wealth over time does NOT mean they kept it from another percentile of income earners...unless of course you believe wealth is something that must be shared rather than earned or lost. Which is it georgieboy?

And while you're ragging on deregulation, please tells how regulations made airline ticket prices and route choices better before we partly deregulated the airline industry. Can't wait to hear your retort on that one!

After-tax income not wealth, Einstein.

Here's a link from my source.

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

Beginning about thirty years ago US incomes began to flat-line for most workers.
Jobs were outsourced.
Banking regulations were repealed.
Tax burdens were shifted from FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector incomes to wage labor.

Would you agree all of the above qualify as "government backed wealth redistribution?"

Are you arguing that because airline deregulation proved beneficial it follows that all deregulation is equally useful to society? Are you calling for repeal of all motor vehicle regulations?

Same question stands. After tax wealth increases for a segment of the population...so what? How does that hurt anyone else...unless of course there is some "right" from a different segment of the population for a piece of that wealth. Are you saying that's the case?

Outsourcing of jobs is a business decision based on salary costs, union influence, health care requirements...you know, BUSINESS decisions. It has NOTHING to do with "redistribution", which only the government can do.

Lastly, yes, I'm arguing that because we see increased competition, and therefore lower prices and more choice for consumers, we should similarly deregulate other segments of the economy burdened by unnecessary and job killing federal regulations. If it worked so beautifully for the airline industry, why not others?

Outsourcing of jobs began with government creating "Free Trade Agreements." Businesses then exploited those government de-regulations to initiate the transfer of wealth we've seen over the last forty years. I would argue the millions of middle class jobs that were sacrificed on that altar have at least as much claim on the wealth increases that resulted as the 1% does.

No doubt small businesses are burdened by libraries full of extraneous regulations.
Small business owners should stop confusing Republican OR Democrat with meaningful choice.

Airline deregulation hasn't lifted all boats either, worker or shareholder:

"Along with a 40% drop in airfares since deregulation in 1978, so too deregulation has seen up to a 40% drop in income for most U.S. airline employees, affecting approximately 545,000 American workers."

Airline deregulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MiddleClass]

"Redistribution of income has been taking place since 1980, when the top 1% already had a large piece of the pie (7%).
"If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000..."

How to Fix 30 Years of Redistribution: Tax the Rich | Common Dreams
[/B]

Income Growth since 1980:
Over 80% to the wealthiest 1%
Under 20% to the 99%

Much of it in tax reductions to the wealthiest 1%

While, between 1929-1979 income was more equal for the middle class.

You do the math: Republicans + Wealthy = a Reduction in Middle Class.

 

[Skull Pilot]

"Redistribution of income has been taking place since 1980, when the top 1% already had a large piece of the pie (7%).
"If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000..."

How to Fix 30 Years of Redistribution: Tax the Rich | Common Dreams
[/B]

Income Growth since 1980:
Over 80% to the wealthiest 1%
Under 20% to the 99%

Much of it in tax reductions to the wealthiest 1%

While, between 1929-1979 income was more equal for the middle class.

You do the math: Republicans + Wealthy = a Reduction in Middle Class.

How many people have moved between income classes in the last 30 years?

 

[eflatminor]

After-tax income not wealth, Einstein.

Here's a link from my source.

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

Beginning about thirty years ago US incomes began to flat-line for most workers.
Jobs were outsourced.
Banking regulations were repealed.
Tax burdens were shifted from FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector incomes to wage labor.

Would you agree all of the above qualify as "government backed wealth redistribution?"

Are you arguing that because airline deregulation proved beneficial it follows that all deregulation is equally useful to society? Are you calling for repeal of all motor vehicle regulations?

Same question stands. After tax wealth increases for a segment of the population...so what? How does that hurt anyone else...unless of course there is some "right" from a different segment of the population for a piece of that wealth. Are you saying that's the case?

Outsourcing of jobs is a business decision based on salary costs, union influence, health care requirements...you know, BUSINESS decisions. It has NOTHING to do with "redistribution", which only the government can do.

Lastly, yes, I'm arguing that because we see increased competition, and therefore lower prices and more choice for consumers, we should similarly deregulate other segments of the economy burdened by unnecessary and job killing federal regulations. If it worked so beautifully for the airline industry, why not others?

Outsourcing of jobs began with government creating "Free Trade Agreements." Businesses then exploited those government de-regulations to initiate the transfer of wealth we've seen over the last forty years. I would argue the millions of middle class jobs that were sacrificed on that altar have at least as much claim on the wealth increases that resulted as the 1% does.

No doubt small businesses are burdened by libraries full of extraneous regulations.
Small business owners should stop confusing Republican OR Democrat with meaningful choice.

Airline deregulation hasn't lifted all boats either, worker or shareholder:

"Along with a 40% drop in airfares since deregulation in 1978, so too deregulation has seen up to a 40% drop in income for most U.S. airline employees, affecting approximately 545,000 American workers."

Airline deregulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You speak as though the starting point for a government is to dictate who a business can and who they cannot sell their products and services to. Where is that in the Constitution? Why is that a reasonable starting point?

Stop calling it redistribution! It's not. Nobody took money from the poor and gave it away. If any particular segment of the population failed to remain competitive in a given marketplace, that is not redistribution of wealth. You wan to discuss WHY some segments of our population are falling behind, fine, but stop suggesting it's because rich people took their money. It really makes you look stupid.

That you don't understand economic reality is evident in your stand against deregulation of the airline industry. Your quote is bullshit (Wiki...please!) and unsubstantiated. How do you think our economy would be doing today if it still cost thousands of dollars to fly?

 

[georgephillip]

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes
The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Who do you think should have the authority to regulate commerce?

When government deregulated finance and crafted so-called Free Trade Acts that provided tax subsidizes to corporations that outsourced jobs to China, that allowed rich people, acting through their agents in government, to steal the incomes of millions of middle class Americans.

I don't know how our economy would be doing today if it still cost thousands of dollars to fly, but I suspect it would be doing much better if the median US income was $90,000 a year instead of $50,000.

"If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000."

How to Fix 30 Years of Redistribution: Tax the Rich | Common Dreams

Wiki is the 5th most visited site on the Web.
Most of the work is done with thousands of volunteers.
Do you "understand economic reality" better than they do?