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yeah thats good, get angry because I'm the messenger. I didn't make the rules, if you don't like them you go try and change them. You can continue to call yourself an Engineer all you want, any Engineering Society would agree with me. I never said you didn't do Engineering work, you just can not claim the title of Engineer or Professional Engineer. Show me your PE stamp, or your Engineering Degree, or anything that meets the technical requirement of being an Engineer. If you can not, you are technically not a an engineer. keep trying though.
No moron... I do not have the college degree in engineering.. . while being a licensed engineer and the title of principle engineer at my company and in my field.. and have even been an instructor attempting to teach these little degree-having paper tigers about the ins and outs of actual engineering work...
Your preconception means nothing.. just as some organization's recognition based on a college degree (for the sake of their own organizational money making) means nothing... I am licensed to do the work that I do as well as licensed in another aspect of my profession as an ENGINEER... without a degree... whine all you want... suck it up, you are speaking to an engineer who does not hold a college engineering degree...
Fuck off, troll
suck a bag of dicks mr i made up my own engineering title. Show Proof of this License and PE Stamp you speak of. i can make all sorts of wild accusations on here as well, it means jack shit without providing any proof.
No moron... I do not have the college degree in engineering.. . while being a licensed engineer and the title of principle engineer at my company and in my field.. and have even been an instructor attempting to teach these little degree-having paper tigers about the ins and outs of actual engineering work...
Your preconception means nothing.. just as some organization's recognition based on a college degree (for the sake of their own organizational money making) means nothing... I am licensed to do the work that I do as well as licensed in another aspect of my profession as an ENGINEER... without a degree... whine all you want... suck it up, you are speaking to an engineer who does not hold a college engineering degree...
Fuck off, troll
suck a bag of dicks mr i made up my own engineering title. Show Proof of this License and PE Stamp you speak of. i can make all sorts of wild accusations on here as well, it means jack shit without providing any proof.
You know PE is only one route thru the EDUCATIONAL system.. you ignorant fuck....
You know licensing does not only come with a goddamn college degree??
My god, you are ignorant... and a perfect example of the bullshit that is a result of our supposed "higher learning" system....
You're wrong... point blank... and can't stand it, because it goes against your elitist preconceived notion
If we're speaking in terms of pure ideology; there is one political party; they disagree on very little in terms of the big issues and how to address them. Both are for expanding government, both are for expanding US influence overseas. Both live in fear of their PAC and main constituencies.
I doubt you'll find anybody really wishing to discuss the main problem that undercuts everything; the political parties and the politics that sees every issue as a football. Remember the "Culture of Corruption"? Political Football. "Swiftboat Veterans"? Political Football.
That main problem is that we have a Constitution that is over 200 years old--written before there were streetlights much less cars--and we're surprised that we're having problems unwilling to address the flaws therein.
In one sense you are spot on, not only do political parties see everything as a political football, so does the media which sadly controls what the hoi polloi believe.
I put out a video on that...Consider that our debt and deficit spending has been on-going for generations and not until this latest and deepest recession has the issue become part of the consciousness of most Americans. It's quite clear what the solution to the problem is, but no one in leadershiip is willing to stand up and tell the truth to the American people.
We are by some accounts spending two billion dollars a week fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, money which if put to use in the U.S. to employ Americans would do wonders in jump starting the economy. Real conservatives recognize we are not and cannot continue to police the world. The truth be told the only reason we are in the ME is for the oil; pull out and let nature take it's course.
We need to restrict immigration, at least until those Americans who want jobs are employed.
We need to fund community colleges and create an educated and trained workforce for the future.
Are you talking about military service? I break with you on that; I think you can make fine contributions to society outside of the military. I also think 2 years is too long.We need to consider two-year universal service by all Americans between the age of 16-26, freedom isn't free and for the youngest of this group an opportunity to learn to work in a stuctured environment, and for the older members the experience to go along with the education and training they earned post high school.
You lost me there. I can see a temporary tax but not just a .50 cent tax on gas for no reason.We need to tax gasoline .50 cents a gallon, for all non-commercial use.
Revenue earned should be by law spent to repair, replace, renew and build means of public transportation - heavy and light rail, flex fueled buses and commuter vans; government buidlings where practical should have solar panels on roofs and their fleet of vehicles should be hybrid or electric and our electric grid needs to be replaced.
suck a bag of dicks mr i made up my own engineering title. Show Proof of this License and PE Stamp you speak of. i can make all sorts of wild accusations on here as well, it means jack shit without providing any proof.
You know PE is only one route thru the EDUCATIONAL system.. you ignorant fuck....
You know licensing does not only come with a goddamn college degree??
My god, you are ignorant... and a perfect example of the bullshit that is a result of our supposed "higher learning" system....
You're wrong... point blank... and can't stand it, because it goes against your elitist preconceived notion
your a retarded piece of shit and you are too stupid and ignorant to even realize it.
you still havent named your exact field you fucking jack ass. Is it Civil Engineer? Mechanical Engineer? Aerospace Engineering? Traffic Engineering? Chemical Engineering? Electrical Engineer? if so please show proof of your license without a degree.
You know PE is only one route thru the EDUCATIONAL system.. you ignorant fuck....
You know licensing does not only come with a goddamn college degree??
My god, you are ignorant... and a perfect example of the bullshit that is a result of our supposed "higher learning" system....
You're wrong... point blank... and can't stand it, because it goes against your elitist preconceived notion
your a retarded piece of shit and you are too stupid and ignorant to even realize it.
you still havent named your exact field you fucking jack ass. Is it Civil Engineer? Mechanical Engineer? Aerospace Engineering? Traffic Engineering? Chemical Engineering? Electrical Engineer? if so please show proof of your license without a degree.
Hmmmm... maybe you can see in the application for the licensing in VA where I received my license, WHERE IT SHOWS THAT YOU DO NOT NEED A DEGREE BUT CAN USE VERIFIED EXPERIENCE.... (psst... including military, you ignorant fuck tard)
LIS > Administrative Code > 18VAC10-20-240
God, you are fucking ignorant... you just can't admit to being wrong... and you're nothing more than a troll
DiamondDave and Skynet, let me interject something here before you gentlemen get too out of hand.... because to some degree you're both right and you're both wrong.
I actually have a little bit of experience with this issue. The company that I work for until relatively recently had a series of job titles with the word "Engineer" in them. An Engineering degree was generally required to get the job; though the type of Engineering degree varied greatly and included individuals with Engineering Technology degrees.
Of the +/- 75 "engineers" we had in the department when we Unionized in 2007, only about a half dozen actually had a PE stamp. Now, a PE stamp is not necessary for the type of work these individuals did. During negotiations the job title for these people was changed to "Designer", for several reasons (mostly having to do with payrates). There is another department in the company which does still call its employees "Engineers". These are all Electrical Engineers, and out of the less than a dozen individuals, at least half have a PE to their name.
The problem with the word "Engineer" goes back a ways. There are only THREE career paths in the United States which have an advanced degree and a licensing/testing requirement to them.... Doctors, Lawyers, and Professional Engineers. Two of those three groups zealously guard their titles. You wouldn't see someone walking around calling themselves Doctor Smith if they didn't have an MD (or a PhD) after their name; nor would you see someone calling themselves a Lawyer if they didn't have a Law Degree and have passed the Bar Exam. If anyone tried to do either of these things they'd quickly be raked over the coals by those professions and lose all credibility.
However, the word "Engineer" has gotten away from the PE's. We have "domestic engineers" (housewives); "sanitation enginners" (garbage men); and a slew of other occupations that have drawn credibility off the use of the word "Engineer" in their title without any educational or testing/licensing requirements. The PE community is STARTING to try to reclaim the word from the general lexicon, but it's going to take a very long time.
I say this as the grand-nephew of the last man in the State of Minnesota to be granted an Architect's License WITHOUT having an Architecture Degree. My grandfather's brother started out as a draftsman for an architect two weeks after he graduated from high school. He worked his way up through the firm and as I said, was the last man in the State of Minnesoty to be allowed to take the Architect's Licensing Exam without having met the degree requirement (this would have been back in the 1950-1960 range).
I also say this as a degree holding CAD Operator who has had to spend large amounts of time over my 16 years in the workforce finding and correcting the errors of more highly educated Engineers (Structural, Architecture, and Electical) and training them on how things work in the real world. Many of these children come out of school with a head full of book learning and no idea of how the REAL world works. I've had to train these people how to layout simple schematics and do basic design work.
Basically what I'm saying is that the book learning of these college grads does leave a lot to be desired, and that the experience and knowledge of someone who has "been there and done that" should not be discounted simply because it doesn't have a sheepskin to back it up. I'd bank on the guy who's done the work for a decade and says it won't work over the guy who can show me 5 tables and a foot long formula about how I SHOULD be able to pull that cable through that 3" conduit he put on the drawing.
If we're speaking in terms of pure ideology; there is one political party; they disagree on very little in terms of the big issues and how to address them. Both are for expanding government, both are for expanding US influence overseas. Both live in fear of their PAC and main constituencies.
I doubt you'll find anybody really wishing to discuss the main problem that undercuts everything; the political parties and the politics that sees every issue as a football. Remember the "Culture of Corruption"? Political Football. "Swiftboat Veterans"? Political Football.
That main problem is that we have a Constitution that is over 200 years old--written before there were streetlights much less cars--and we're surprised that we're having problems unwilling to address the flaws therein.
In one sense you are spot on, not only do political parties see everything as a political football, so does the media which sadly controls what the hoi polloi believe.
The media put on what the public by and large wants to see. News has been turned into entertainment by the corporations that run the news networks. GE, Jack Welch famously reasoned, fully expected NBC News to make money. So you ended up with Dateline NBC where "hard" news reporters like Jane Pauley and Stone Phillips covered the types of stories young women in their 30's wanted to see. John Quinones of ABC News, I can guarantee you, when he went to Columbia school of Journalism had no idea he'd be doing "What Would you Do". He probaly didn't think it would be on the air.
We get the television coverage we want. So you'll know what type of underware Obama and Rick Perry (the GOP nominee) wear by the time next November rolls around.
I put out a video on that...
Serious Fun: TrueMajorityACTION.org
Great stuff there.
Are you talking about military service? I break with you on that; I think you can make fine contributions to society outside of the military. I also think 2 years is too long.We need to consider two-year universal service by all Americans between the age of 16-26, freedom isn't free and for the youngest of this group an opportunity to learn to work in a stuctured environment, and for the older members the experience to go along with the education and training they earned post high school.
You lost me there. I can see a temporary tax but not just a .50 cent tax on gas for no reason.We need to tax gasoline .50 cents a gallon, for all non-commercial use.
Revenue earned should be by law spent to repair, replace, renew and build means of public transportation - heavy and light rail, flex fueled buses and commuter vans; government buidlings where practical should have solar panels on roofs and their fleet of vehicles should be hybrid or electric and our electric grid needs to be replaced.
I'd put a $.25 tax on every gallon of gasoline refined and a much lesser tax on what is consumed if that is the outcome.
By and large I agree but remember, we get the government we deserve. Less than 1 out of 2 vote. Hence you have wildly awkward governing bodies that range from serious to sublime in this country.
The Constitution doesn't need to be re-written; it needs to be updated just like any good business plan does from time to time. Isn't 200 years of service enough for this one document? At the time of the writing, the country was worried about invasion more than economics. So we have an amendment barring you from having to keep a military person in your house. WTF?
i totally agree. what dave is unwilling to understand and accept is that the word "engineer" is commonly misused to describe many things that actually have nothing to do with engineering. Sound Engineer is one for example. I keep referring to professional engineers and design engineers. these are the individuals who must obtain degrees in their field to qualify . i.e. Civil Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, Aerospace Engineer, Structural Engineer, Electrical Engineer. These being the main engineering disciplines (i may have left out some, if i did i apologize). it is these individuals who design and maintain the world in which we live in and truly can call themselves Engineers. someone who simply works in the field of Engineering does not share the same designation as these people. Dave either does not understand this or is unwilling to accept this. whatever the case, he is not by definition an Engineer, although he probably does work in the Engineering field.
DiamondDave and Skynet, let me interject something here before you gentlemen get too out of hand.... because to some degree you're both right and you're both wrong.
I actually have a little bit of experience with this issue. The company that I work for until relatively recently had a series of job titles with the word "Engineer" in them. An Engineering degree was generally required to get the job; though the type of Engineering degree varied greatly and included individuals with Engineering Technology degrees.
Of the +/- 75 "engineers" we had in the department when we Unionized in 2007, only about a half dozen actually had a PE stamp. Now, a PE stamp is not necessary for the type of work these individuals did. During negotiations the job title for these people was changed to "Designer", for several reasons (mostly having to do with payrates). There is another department in the company which does still call its employees "Engineers". These are all Electrical Engineers, and out of the less than a dozen individuals, at least half have a PE to their name.
The problem with the word "Engineer" goes back a ways. There are only THREE career paths in the United States which have an advanced degree and a licensing/testing requirement to them.... Doctors, Lawyers, and Professional Engineers. Two of those three groups zealously guard their titles. You wouldn't see someone walking around calling themselves Doctor Smith if they didn't have an MD (or a PhD) after their name; nor would you see someone calling themselves a Lawyer if they didn't have a Law Degree and have passed the Bar Exam. If anyone tried to do either of these things they'd quickly be raked over the coals by those professions and lose all credibility.
However, the word "Engineer" has gotten away from the PE's. We have "domestic engineers" (housewives); "sanitation enginners" (garbage men); and a slew of other occupations that have drawn credibility off the use of the word "Engineer" in their title without any educational or testing/licensing requirements. The PE community is STARTING to try to reclaim the word from the general lexicon, but it's going to take a very long time.
I say this as the grand-nephew of the last man in the State of Minnesota to be granted an Architect's License WITHOUT having an Architecture Degree. My grandfather's brother started out as a draftsman for an architect two weeks after he graduated from high school. He worked his way up through the firm and as I said, was the last man in the State of Minnesoty to be allowed to take the Architect's Licensing Exam without having met the degree requirement (this would have been back in the 1950-1960 range).
I also say this as a degree holding CAD Operator who has had to spend large amounts of time over my 16 years in the workforce finding and correcting the errors of more highly educated Engineers (Structural, Architecture, and Electical) and training them on how things work in the real world. Many of these children come out of school with a head full of book learning and no idea of how the REAL world works. I've had to train these people how to layout simple schematics and do basic design work.
Basically what I'm saying is that the book learning of these college grads does leave a lot to be desired, and that the experience and knowledge of someone who has "been there and done that" should not be discounted simply because it doesn't have a sheepskin to back it up. I'd bank on the guy who's done the work for a decade and says it won't work over the guy who can show me 5 tables and a foot long formula about how I SHOULD be able to pull that cable through that 3" conduit he put on the drawing.
i totally agree. what dave is unwilling to understand and accept is that the word "engineer" is commonly misused to describe many things that actually have nothing to do with engineering. Sound Engineer is one for example. I keep referring to professional engineers and design engineers. these are the individuals who must obtain degrees in their field to qualify . i.e. Civil Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, Aerospace Engineer, Structural Engineer, Electrical Engineer. These being the main engineering disciplines (i may have left out some, if i did i apologize). it is these individuals who design and maintain the world in which we live in and truly can call themselves Engineers. someone who simply works in the field of Engineering does not share the same designation as these people. Dave either does not understand this or is unwilling to accept this. whatever the case, he is not by definition an Engineer, although he probably does work in the Engineering field.
DiamondDave and Skynet, let me interject something here before you gentlemen get too out of hand.... because to some degree you're both right and you're both wrong.
I actually have a little bit of experience with this issue. The company that I work for until relatively recently had a series of job titles with the word "Engineer" in them. An Engineering degree was generally required to get the job; though the type of Engineering degree varied greatly and included individuals with Engineering Technology degrees.
Of the +/- 75 "engineers" we had in the department when we Unionized in 2007, only about a half dozen actually had a PE stamp. Now, a PE stamp is not necessary for the type of work these individuals did. During negotiations the job title for these people was changed to "Designer", for several reasons (mostly having to do with payrates). There is another department in the company which does still call its employees "Engineers". These are all Electrical Engineers, and out of the less than a dozen individuals, at least half have a PE to their name.
The problem with the word "Engineer" goes back a ways. There are only THREE career paths in the United States which have an advanced degree and a licensing/testing requirement to them.... Doctors, Lawyers, and Professional Engineers. Two of those three groups zealously guard their titles. You wouldn't see someone walking around calling themselves Doctor Smith if they didn't have an MD (or a PhD) after their name; nor would you see someone calling themselves a Lawyer if they didn't have a Law Degree and have passed the Bar Exam. If anyone tried to do either of these things they'd quickly be raked over the coals by those professions and lose all credibility.
However, the word "Engineer" has gotten away from the PE's. We have "domestic engineers" (housewives); "sanitation enginners" (garbage men); and a slew of other occupations that have drawn credibility off the use of the word "Engineer" in their title without any educational or testing/licensing requirements. The PE community is STARTING to try to reclaim the word from the general lexicon, but it's going to take a very long time.
I say this as the grand-nephew of the last man in the State of Minnesota to be granted an Architect's License WITHOUT having an Architecture Degree. My grandfather's brother started out as a draftsman for an architect two weeks after he graduated from high school. He worked his way up through the firm and as I said, was the last man in the State of Minnesoty to be allowed to take the Architect's Licensing Exam without having met the degree requirement (this would have been back in the 1950-1960 range).
I also say this as a degree holding CAD Operator who has had to spend large amounts of time over my 16 years in the workforce finding and correcting the errors of more highly educated Engineers (Structural, Architecture, and Electical) and training them on how things work in the real world. Many of these children come out of school with a head full of book learning and no idea of how the REAL world works. I've had to train these people how to layout simple schematics and do basic design work.
Basically what I'm saying is that the book learning of these college grads does leave a lot to be desired, and that the experience and knowledge of someone who has "been there and done that" should not be discounted simply because it doesn't have a sheepskin to back it up. I'd bank on the guy who's done the work for a decade and says it won't work over the guy who can show me 5 tables and a foot long formula about how I SHOULD be able to pull that cable through that 3" conduit he put on the drawing.
i totally agree. what dave is unwilling to understand and accept is that the word "engineer" is commonly misused to describe many things that actually have nothing to do with engineering. Sound Engineer is one for example. I keep referring to professional engineers and design engineers. these are the individuals who must obtain degrees in their field to qualify . i.e. Civil Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, Aerospace Engineer, Structural Engineer, Electrical Engineer. These being the main engineering disciplines (i may have left out some, if i did i apologize). it is these individuals who design and maintain the world in which we live in and truly can call themselves Engineers. someone who simply works in the field of Engineering does not share the same designation as these people. Dave either does not understand this or is unwilling to accept this. whatever the case, he is not by definition an Engineer, although he probably does work in the Engineering field.
Wrong.. I am state licensed as an ENGINEER... as there are the paths to show VERIFIED experience in place of the "education" or degree...
Just gets your goat that you can be an actual engineer without your little college piece of paper.... sticks in your craw... makes you feel less of a man-child... well.. tough cookies if your little fantasy preconception is not as solid as you thought it was
Have a nice day, asswipe
i wonder if there had been a republican president, and we had no extension of unemployment benefits and no stimulus, how much higher the actual unemployment rate would have climbed to....
and where is the GOP to blame in all of this? they have been in control of the House for the last 6 months and we havent seen any major changes in unemployment or the economy, are we to say they are to blame for this as well? what happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised, are you all gonna blame Obama for that or does the GOP get the blame for blocking all legislation?
The GOP controlls 1/2 of 1/3 of the federal government.
Your expectations are overly comical.
nicely put that you offer exactly no opinions or solutions to any of these problems. thanks for wasting everyones time though.
Progs want bigger government. Even in the face of absolute collapse.
Cons want to shrink it down to next to nothing. Even in the face that some people will suffer.
Progs run the DNC and push the RNC
Cons have just re-entered the RNC and don't exist in the DNC
we will march past the point of collapse, just as planned. The election will only decide when, if it has not occured.
I agree the 'cons', lead by Grover Norquist want to shrink government down to nothing, he has said so in nearly those exact words. I don't believe progressives want big government, especially on the federal level - though progressives employed by the Federal Governent are the exception.
There is no doubt progressives value social programs, and cons do not. But not all progressives support spending on those social programs where the bang is only a puff. Some don't work, others simply kick the can down the road; failure should not be rewareded.
As a people we need to think better beyond ideology and put our limited resources towards what works.
What doesn't work?
The war on drugs, failure.
The war on terror, failure (or, at least, the money and lives spent has been too great for the curent outcome).
Foreign Policy (doing the same thing over and over)
Immitgration Policy, failure (if in fact we have one)
Primary/Secondary Education, failure (for too many)
Higher education (too expensive for too many)
Too often the problems are not defined, and by failing to properly focus on the problem solutions are offered based on emotion, intuition, bias and self interest.
The war on drugs, failure. and unconstitutional.
The war on terror, failure (or, at least, the money and lives spent has been too great for the curent outcome). That's b/c we are fighting a PC war instead of bringing hell to our enemies.
Foreign Policy (doing the same thing over and over) Passing out bribe money to keep people acting like our allies and giving money to the same shitholes for the last 60 years has been and will be an epic waste.
Immitgration Policy, failure (if in fact we have one) It's actually very hard, and somewhat pricey to become a citizen.
Primary/Secondary Education, failure (for too many) It wasn't so bad before the DoE. Now we waste resources on useless things as an option to core subjects.
Higher education (too expensive for too many) That's b/c they know they can charge whatever they want b/c the Fed will cover 1/2 the cost in grants and the other 1/2 will be covered in loans. There is no more "Working your way through college."
Government does to much in the name of being nice or helpfull to the point it's made much of it worse.
i wonder if there had been a republican president, and we had no extension of unemployment benefits and no stimulus, how much higher the actual unemployment rate would have climbed to....
and where is the GOP to blame in all of this? they have been in control of the House for the last 6 months and we havent seen any major changes in unemployment or the economy, are we to say they are to blame for this as well? what happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised, are you all gonna blame Obama for that or does the GOP get the blame for blocking all legislation?
The problem is we have had only Big Government since FDR. Government shrunk a bit but has made its way back over the years since then.
Liberals or progressives claim we need a moderate and even claim Obama is a moderate, well then wtf is a "extreme" progressive? Bush was a Progressive liberal, it's easy to prove and if asked people would have a hard time finding even a few things about Bush that made him "conservative."
The debate today seems to be to try and make it as if we need to meet in the middle... The question is what is considered far right and far left? Most view far right as being "Run the country per the constitution of the USA." Well here's the thing, that "far right" is really moderate! We live in an extreme left country plain and simple.
You can't balance the budget by cutting all of our military while spending MORE on social stuff when military is at least in the constitution and all the social stuff isnt. Even cutting all that military wont balance the budget. All that stagflation, and middle class getting wiped out, thats due to bigger Government liberal policies all of it. As Government gets bigger the people get smaller, it has always been that way and will always be that way. Government is nothing more than a giant fucking corporation that has a huge monopoly even when their product sucks balls.
Raising taxes seems to be the war cry of *some* liberals today, not that it will even get close to paying for the interest on the debt that politicians barrow to pay the bills of programs that fail relentlessly. Think about it, if we raise taxes you dont get more revenue so that you can do more stuff. When you raise taxes people get to do less stuff, and that more revenue wont even cover the interest on our debt Do you get that?
So where are the lines? What is conservative and what is liberal in todays America?
i wonder if there had been a republican president, and we had no extension of unemployment benefits and no stimulus, how much higher the actual unemployment rate would have climbed to....
Just subtract all the useless government parasites that should have been laid off but didn't because of "stimulus" money.
and where is the GOP to blame in all of this? they have been in control of the House for the last 6 months and we havent seen any major changes in unemployment or the economy, are we to say they are to blame for this as well? what happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised, are you all gonna blame Obama for that or does the GOP get the blame for blocking all legislation?
Trying to blame the GOP is the ultimate in desperation.
SkyNut is one of the more egregious morons who have regged lately.
I bet his parents are So Proud.
