Allies were taking a break and rumors were rampant about "home for Christmas 1944". Ike was attending a series of Christmas parties and as far as the U.S. and Brit military leadership was concerned the War was over.
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Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose
in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier
part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest
....yes, the US had the troops in Korea, and material strength, but in many cases did not deploy tactically--as we see East of Chosin.--and they had a lot of SKoreans in the US units East of Chosin....plus they had air cover--which the USMC greatly used to their advantage for supply as well as CASGood point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose
in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier
part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest
I thought they were spread thin, because:The Bulge units were spread thin due to the rumors that the war was over. The rare Army Infantry front line units must have heard the rumbling of tanks but Ike was enjoying the perks of a General officer and what passed for military intelligence was probably passed out in the nearest French village.
....assignment of a front 4-5 miles to a division, the 28th ID was told to settle down along a vast stretch of 28 miles
the general [ Middleton--VIII Corps CO ] ...had been ordered to hold no less than 85 miles [ of the front ]
Those Who Hold Bastogne ...P Schrijversthe exceptional situation made any defense in depth impossible
Rumor has it that General McAuliffe actually said "fuck you" rather than the much celebrated "nuts" that the media spin propaganda thought would be more proper for U.S. citizens in the 40's to digest.I thought they were spread thin, because:The Bulge units were spread thin due to the rumors that the war was over. The rare Army Infantry front line units must have heard the rumbling of tanks but Ike was enjoying the perks of a General officer and what passed for military intelligence was probably passed out in the nearest French village.
1. the Allies didn't have enough armies to cover the whole front--so the Ardennes got the least units--being hilly, etc
...a. the units in the Ardennes didn't have enough men to cover the front as per standard tactics of:
....assignment of a front 4-5 miles to a division, the 28th ID was told to settle down along a vast stretch of 28 miles
the general [ Middleton--VIII Corps CO ] ...had been ordered to hold no less than 85 miles [ of the front ]
Those Who Hold Bastogne ...P Schrijversthe exceptional situation made any defense in depth impossible
as usual at this time of year, I read the Bulge books.....I started in 1977 reading about it
got 2 here and getting some more
No Greater Valor right here on the end table has a chapter titled ''A Massive Intelligence Failure''
I will start that this weekend.....looks very interesting...
I know when I was in the military, we used the F word more than civilians--back then!!...mid 80sRumor has it that General McAuliffe actually said "fuck you" rather than the much celebrated "nuts" that the media spin propaganda thought would be more proper for U.S-. citizens in the 40's to digest.I thought they were spread thin, because:The Bulge units were spread thin due to the rumors that the war was over. The rare Army Infantry front line units must have heard the rumbling of tanks but Ike was enjoying the perks of a General officer and what passed for military intelligence was probably passed out in the nearest French village.
1. the Allies didn't have enough armies to cover the whole front--so the Ardennes got the least units--being hilly, etc
...a. the units in the Ardennes didn't have enough men to cover the front as per standard tactics of:
....assignment of a front 4-5 miles to a division, the 28th ID was told to settle down along a vast stretch of 28 miles
the general [ Middleton--VIII Corps CO ] ...had been ordered to hold no less than 85 miles [ of the front ]
Those Who Hold Bastogne ...P Schrijversthe exceptional situation made any defense in depth impossible
as usual at this time of year, I read the Bulge books.....I started in 1977 reading about it
got 2 here and getting some more
No Greater Valor right here on the end table has a chapter titled ''A Massive Intelligence Failure''
I will start that this weekend.....looks very interesting...
the Germans couldn't get to the coast..maybe with one vehicleGermans were in a hurry to get to the coast and refuel and they didn't have time to deal with McAuliffe's holdouts at Bastogne so the FDR administration which officially controlled the media created a hero and turned McAuliffe's pathetic resistance into a propaganda victory while Ike's negligence and the 20,000 Allied KIA's in a month were virtually forgotten.
Allies were taking a break and rumors were rampant about "home for Christmas 1944". Ike was attending a series of Christmas parties and as far as the U.S. and Brit military leadership was concerned the War was over.
....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose
in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier
part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest
Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.
You can't dismiss an intelligence failure with the incredible and laughable claim that the Germans "were passing orders by couriers". The plain hard fact is that whatever passed for American and Allied military intelligence was probably passed out cold in the nearest French village along with most of Ike's staff that fell for the rumors of "home for Christmas". .
agree--but they say Ike was good for his position because he had to deal with many nationalities/people/politicians....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose
in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier
part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest
Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.
Marshall had been in combat - in the Philippines & WWI - see George Marshall - Wikipedia
Marshall rose to fame on his training, instruction & planning abilities. He didn't command large armies - but then, the US didn't have large armies up until WWI.
The one who truly lacked combat experience was Eisenhower - although he requested combat duty (Philippines & WWI), he also rose on training, instruction & planning. Eisenhower was twitted a lot by Montgomery in the ETO - for that lack of combat experience.
I agree as I stated before about the Germans doing a great job at masking their forcesYou can't dismiss an intelligence failure with the incredible and laughable claim that the Germans "were passing orders by couriers". The plain hard fact is that whatever passed for American and Allied military intelligence was probably passed out cold in the nearest French village along with most of Ike's staff that fell for the rumors of "home for Christmas". .
The Bulge wasn't an Allied intel failure, it was a coup by the Germany military, who must have suspected that Enigma had been penetrated. Thus their countermeasures. I suggest reading:
Enigma : the battle for the code [book] / Hugh Sebag-Montefiore.
Subjects
Enigma cipher system -- History.
& of course the Bulge was fought in Luxembourg, & parts of Belgium & France.
- World War, 1939-1945 -- Cryptography.