Your thoughts on this, please.

[José]

The US government is promoting a totally reckless, irresponsible "social experiment" in the nation, allowing millions of third worlders to settle in the country, legally and illegally, which may result in the destruction of America's national identity, standard of living, crime explosion, etc, etc...

This would be grounds for a peaceful leadership change by democratic means (at best) and a civil war (at worst) in any other (sane) part of the world.

But instead of (at least) protesting against their government gambling with the future of the nation people are worried about white advocacy sites, TV channels for black people, magazines for hispanics, etc, etc...

Seriously, the whole country should change its name from United States of America to United States of Bellevue.

 

[Wake]

Why can't WE have Miss White America, White Spelling bees, White voices and not be labeled?

Well for what its worth I consider Miss BLACK America, Black Spelling bees, Black voices to be racist, too.

Does that help?

How about if I added that while I consider such race-based things sort of silly, I also think people ought to be allowed to have them?

Still doesn't help does it?


I think my major argument with my LEFTIES chums is their abject REFUSAL to acknowledge that WHITE PEOPLE get fucked over, too.

Most of them fail to do that because to do so would demand that they acknowldge that they are largely the BENEFACTORS of CLASSISM.

You see, as long as people are OBSESSED BY RACE, they mostly don't have time to acknowledge that CLASS is a FAR GREATER problem in our society.

Incidently...if we dealt with CLASSISM, we'd also deal with RACISM, but good luck trying to convince my TRUSTAFARIAN pals that.

Exquisitely well put.

I'd +rep you right now, but I have to spread some +rep around first. ;-)

 

[SFC Ollie]

The US government is promoting a totally reckless, irresponsible "social experiment" in the nation, allowing millions of third worlders to settle in the country, legally and illegally, which may result in the destruction of America's national identity, standard of living, crime explosion, etc, etc...

This would be grounds for a peaceful leadership change by democratic means (at best) and a civil war (at worst) in any other (sane) part of the world.

But instead of (at least) protesting against their government gambling with the future of the nation people are worried about white advocacy sites, TV channels for black people, magazines for hispanics, etc, etc...

Seriously, the whole country should change its name from United States of America to United States of Bellevue.

You need to learn the History of this great country. We have been a social experiment from day one. But for some reason you don't seem to want it to work. We are and will be the melting pot....If we would only allow it to work.

 

[Trajan]

Well for what its worth I consider Miss BLACK America, Black Spelling bees, Black voices to be racist, too.

Does that help?

How about if I added that while I consider such race-based things sort of silly, I also think people ought to be allowed to have them?

Still doesn't help does it?


I think my major argument with my LEFTIES chums is their abject REFUSAL to acknowledge that WHITE PEOPLE get fucked over, too.

Most of them fail to do that because to do so would demand that they acknowldge that they are largely the BENEFACTORS of CLASSISM.

You see, as long as people are OBSESSED BY RACE, they mostly don't have time to acknowledge that CLASS is a FAR GREATER problem in our society.

Incidently...if we dealt with CLASSISM, we'd also deal with RACISM, but good luck trying to convince my TRUSTAFARIAN pals that.

yup, everyone gets fucked over some time somewhere, some more than others.


And, if I recall correctly- white trash was a pejorative for a classe of white people, created by-...........................white people....

its what we do about it that counts.

Just ask the Irish...

absolute....or the jews, or dumb polocks....or guinea bastards ( the fav. pejorative of irish cops in NYC for Italians when I was growing up)

 

[hjmick]

yup, everyone gets fucked over some time somewhere, some more than others.


And, if I recall correctly- white trash was a pejorative for a classe of white people, created by-...........................white people....

its what we do about it that counts.

Just ask the Irish...

absolute....or the jews, or dumb polocks....or guinea bastards ( the fav. pejorative of irish cops in NYC for Italians when I was growing up)

They were just making up for the early years...

 

[IanC]

We are a community of racial realists and idealists. We are White Nationalists who support true diversity and a homeland for all peoples. Thousands of organizations promote the interests, values and heritage of non-White minorities. We promote ours. We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!

What is wrong with this ^? Is it racist? What if it said:

We are a community of racial realists and idealists. We are Black/Hispanics/Asian Nationalists who support true diversity and a homeland for all peoples. Thousands of organizations promote the interests, values and heritage of non-black/hispanic/asians. We promote ours. We are the voice of the new embattled black/hispanic/hispanic minority!

Would that be racist too? Or is each race promoting their own because someone MUST sit on the back of the bus and each are fighting to sit in the front of the bus. This is not including Native Americans who don't want to ride in the bus either way...probably because they are above such bullshit.

Anyway..I have fought racism and bigotry for most of my life. I fell in love with a black man but unfortunately it was not in our stars to be together. I have dated hispanics. I married a native american. People are people. We all have red blood, all have navels, all have hearts and souls. Our skin color is as different as our eye color and hair color but we are still all human beings.
With that said..I am fed up with the newest attack mode by blacks AND whites against anyone saying a word or doing something considered politically incorrect while those waggling their fingers and threatening to kill "nigga crackers" are untouched and therefore they are free to keep on keeping on with this race war over shit that happend prior to the civil war and most of us never owned slaves and were as poor as they were once they were freed. The elite owned slaves. My family didn't. But I am white..therefore, according to some illiterate pond scum from Haiti that got all ghetto said cracker is not racist..but ****** is. Unless one is black.

Which means I can go to the grocery store and greet every white person as a cracker, right? Bet they wouldn't like it much, any more than I would like insulting them since it IS a racist remark.

When is the double standard going to stop? And what is going to happen until it does? Riots. Death. Killings. More racist tensions.

And for those who don't know, the first quote is from Stormfront. I find NOTHING wrong with what that statement says on their front page. What makes it so different and wrong compared to BET tv, Miss Black America, Black Spelling bees, Black Voices, etc etc etc? Why can't WE have Miss White America, White Spelling bees, White voices and not be labeled?

This has nothing to do with the zimmerman or deen cases. It is a current problem eveyrone faces and I'm sick of it all. So tell me. Why is Stormfront considered so bad...and the opposite places are considered non racist?

I seem to remember an incident where a college student publically read out the constitution of the Black Student Association at his school. except that he substituted the word white for black. needless to say htere was a public uproar over his racism, and even after he pointed out what he did to the Dean, he was still suspended but no longer expelled.

 

[Gracie]

We are a community of racial realists and idealists. We are White Nationalists who support true diversity and a homeland for all peoples. Thousands of organizations promote the interests, values and heritage of non-White minorities. We promote ours. We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!

What is wrong with this ^? Is it racist? What if it said:

We are a community of racial realists and idealists. We are Black/Hispanics/Asian Nationalists who support true diversity and a homeland for all peoples. Thousands of organizations promote the interests, values and heritage of non-black/hispanic/asians. We promote ours. We are the voice of the new embattled black/hispanic/hispanic minority!

Would that be racist too? Or is each race promoting their own because someone MUST sit on the back of the bus and each are fighting to sit in the front of the bus. This is not including Native Americans who don't want to ride in the bus either way...probably because they are above such bullshit.

Anyway..I have fought racism and bigotry for most of my life. I fell in love with a black man but unfortunately it was not in our stars to be together. I have dated hispanics. I married a native american. People are people. We all have red blood, all have navels, all have hearts and souls. Our skin color is as different as our eye color and hair color but we are still all human beings.
With that said..I am fed up with the newest attack mode by blacks AND whites against anyone saying a word or doing something considered politically incorrect while those waggling their fingers and threatening to kill "nigga crackers" are untouched and therefore they are free to keep on keeping on with this race war over shit that happend prior to the civil war and most of us never owned slaves and were as poor as they were once they were freed. The elite owned slaves. My family didn't. But I am white..therefore, according to some illiterate pond scum from Haiti that got all ghetto said cracker is not racist..but ****** is. Unless one is black.

Which means I can go to the grocery store and greet every white person as a cracker, right? Bet they wouldn't like it much, any more than I would like insulting them since it IS a racist remark.

When is the double standard going to stop? And what is going to happen until it does? Riots. Death. Killings. More racist tensions.

And for those who don't know, the first quote is from Stormfront. I find NOTHING wrong with what that statement says on their front page. What makes it so different and wrong compared to BET tv, Miss Black America, Black Spelling bees, Black Voices, etc etc etc? Why can't WE have Miss White America, White Spelling bees, White voices and not be labeled?

This has nothing to do with the zimmerman or deen cases. It is a current problem eveyrone faces and I'm sick of it all. So tell me. Why is Stormfront considered so bad...and the opposite places are considered non racist?

I seem to remember an incident where a college student publically read out the constitution of the Black Student Association at his school. except that he substituted the word white for black. needless to say htere was a public uproar over his racism, and even after he pointed out what he did to the Dean, he was still suspended but no longer expelled.

Truth hurts. Then pisses people off.

 

[oldfart]

How do we even KNOW those quotes were real? I believe the OP, why lie? So, do posters think ONLY Caucasians are racist? Only white people do hateful and vile things based on race. Every other race is a victim. I think we are at the crux of the biscuit. So here my next question: How do you prove someone is a racist? How do you KNOW? A tingling groin? A rash? What scale, what measure, HOW do KNOW? Words aren't enough. Can you look into the eyes, read the mind and know the heart? I think we should stop using that word because it is harmful and divisive. And because you can't prove it.

OK, my answers for what its worth. My father became active in the civil rights movement in the 40's so I grew up with it. In the 70's I taught at an historically black college in Mississippi. In 1972 I was a poll watcher for the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. I've been an expert witness in federal court in employment discrimination cases. My children attended majority black public schools in Mississippi. I don't have any black friends (or gay friends, or bald friends for that matter). I have friends.

Racism is too important an issue for America to degrade its meaning through frivolous use. There is no ethnic barrier to racism; any group can have racists and any group can have victims of racism. The circumstances of race relations in the United States are such that the capacity to act on racist attitudes is weighted heavily toward white people.

Public policy should not concern itself with what people believe, there are a great number of things that people believe that are wrong and immoral. Public policy can only effectively deal with actions. Social institutions such as religion, family, education, and social organizations can and should endeavor to modify attitudes, but this is not often an area for legislation or public action. There is more to citizenship than voting and paying taxes.

Everyone is ethnocentric to some degree. This is the human characteristic of being more comfortable with people we perceive as most like us. It is not something to be proud of, being closer to feeling revulsion when seeing a person with a disfigurement, and we should try to counteract such reactions; but it is not racism.

Racism is the expression of a worldview which sets one group of people as privileged and superior to others such that it justifies exploitation, discrimination, and often violence based on race, language, culture, or visible ethnicity. Conversely racism can also be the reverse, the identification of a group to be considered inferior to everyone else. You don't have to believe in a master race and ubermenschen to be racist; either one will do. There is no reason a particular group cannot contain both authors of racist behavior and victims of racist behavior.

I do not read minds and would not claim I could identify a racist by what they thought. They need to speak or act to give me the knowledge to make a judgment. Racism is a better label for speech or behavior than it is a label for human beings.

There are no appropriate apologetics for racism. Neither academic studies nor anecdotal stories excuses racist behavior. It has no redeeming characteristics. To paraphrase Lincoln, "If racism is not evil, then nothing is evil". If humanity has any meaning for us, we have a moral duty as individuals and as a society to endeavor to reduce its expression, certainly by ourselves and also by others. In some circumstances silence is not an ethical option.

To answer directly, racism is a property of speech and action, not of thought. When you hear it or observe it you know whether it is appropriate or not. If you give people the benefit of the doubt, there are cases where the appropriate response is education rather than censure. Racism, while always an evil, is found in all gradations, and age and upbringing can mitigate a condemnation to a more gentle chastisement. I prefer to think that a lot of especially speech is more insensitivity and careless thought than malevolent intent. Reciprocity is a useful test for speech and behavior; were the roles reversed, would the speech or behavior be offensive to the speaker?

I have often been accused of being verbose and admit to bouts of incomprehensibility. I have tried to be as clear as I can, but if I seem to obfuscate, let me know and I'll try to clarify!

Peace all, Jamie

 

[José]

Originally posted by SFC Ollie
You need to learn the History of this great country. We have been a social experiment from day one. But for some reason you don't seem to want it to work. We are and will be the melting pot....If we would only allow it to work.

From 1600 to the end of WWII America was a white, caucasian melting pot (first the english, then germans, scandinavians, french, italians, slavs)... with a few blacks and hispanics who never defined the identity of the nation.

For more than 300 years America considered herself a white country, a country founded by white people with a distinctive european national character.

Why pray tell is the US considered as part of the western civilization and not the african, latin american, asian civilization?

From her independence to 1950 America fiercely protected its european majority.

Only in 1950/1960 under the psychological impact of german nazism America decided to "renege" her own history, her own national identity and "redefine itself", "recreate itself" as a multiracial nation, an abstract concept without any ethnic affiliation.

 

[José]

Ollie... listen...

Almost all the posters here were still in their formative years in the 60's, when the american people began being bombarded with the (false) idea that the national identity of the country was not european...

You, just like montrovant, editec, gracie, Clayton, trajan, have been subjected to a massive indoctrination/brainwashing campaign for the last 60 years whose only purpose is to convince you that 300 years of America considering himself a white country, being massively inhabited by europeans and protecting her racial composition at all costs was a mere "coincidence", an irrelevant "detail".

Now... you are all totally free to accept the new multiracial self-definition America adopted from 1960 on... when the country "gave up" being a white nation, so to speak.

You are free to firmly believe this was the best decision the country has ever made in all of its history.

But we cannot deny the history of the United States.. this is intellectual dishonesty.

Whether the US should have continued to consider itself a white nation after WWII is a matter of opinion... it can be debated at will.

But the fact that for most of its history the US was indeed a white country is a historical reality and historical realities cannot be denied.

I strongly opposed the multiracialist ideology but I'm honest enough to admit the fact that America did redifine herself as a multiracial country after WWII.

I would like to see the same intellectual honesty from multiracialists. I'd like to see them conceding the fact that the country was indeed founded by white people, based on european values and considered itself a white country for most of its history.

As I said elsewhere...

Personal opinions are open for debate not facts...

When you start denying historical facts, it's no longer political debate, it's crazy people talk.

 

[Michelle420]

We are a community of racial realists
What is wrong with this ^? Is it racist? What if it said:



Would that be racist too? Or is each race promoting their own because someone MUST sit on the back of the bus and each are fighting to sit in the front of the bus. This is not including Native Americans who don't want to ride in the bus either way...probably because they are above such bullshit.

Yes, regardless of who is saying it, starting the premise with "racial realism" marking a line no matter who is saying it. It sets a tone for racial inferiority or superiority based on which race you believe to be better of worse from a biological standpoint.

Just my opinion.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Why can't WE have Miss White America, White Spelling bees, White voices and not be labeled?

Well for what its worth I consider Miss BLACK America, Black Spelling bees, Black voices to be racist, too.

Does that help?

How about if I added that while I consider such race-based things sort of silly, I also think people ought to be allowed to have them?

Still doesn't help does it?


I think my major argument with my LEFTIES chums is their abject REFUSAL to acknowledge that WHITE PEOPLE get fucked over, too.

Most of them fail to do that because to do so would demand that they acknowldge that they are largely the BENEFACTORS of CLASSISM.

You see, as long as people are OBSESSED BY RACE, they mostly don't have time to acknowledge that CLASS is a FAR GREATER problem in our society.

Incidently...if we dealt with CLASSISM, we'd also deal with RACISM, but good luck trying to convince my TRUSTAFARIAN pals that.

Well said.

 

[oldfart]

But the fact that for most of its history the US was indeed a white country is a historical reality and historical realities cannot be denied.

You can only make this argument by adopting both a sliding scale of what is the United States and what is "white" that is completely ahistorical.

In 1700, by best estimates Europeans comprised less than 10% of the population of the current territory of the United States. But you only consider the history of the European settlers trapped on a thin strip of Atlantic coast as valid. I guess that because the Europeans were successful later at committing genocide this validates your view.

In 1750 you are relying on the history of English settlers who regarded Germans as "foreigners". The English in America of 1750 considered themselves culturally superior to Germans (even if they did have a German king!) and despised the Irish as inferior creatures.

In 1857 the Supreme Court ruled that all people of African descent, whether slave or free could never be considered citizens of the United States, regardless of where they were born.

The most organized movement to unite white people in America was the Klan which in the 1920's ran candidates to save American from blacks, Catholics, Jews, and immigrants. I guess there weren't enough First Nations left to be worth picking on.

So yes, until after WWII the majority of the white ruling elite in the United States considered the nation to be founded on a "white" culture which excluded First Nations, blacks, Asians, Catholics, Jews, southern Europeans, and East Europeans. To say that they became inclusive of Catholics, Jews, blacks, Asians, and First Nations in the last sixty years is a bit of a stretch. Join a country club lately? I know a few that still have no Catholics or Jews allowed.

I would like to see the same intellectual honesty from multiracialists. I'd like to see them conceding the fact that the country was indeed founded by white people, based on european values and considered itself a white country for most of its history.

I would greatly like to see you recognize that the history you refer to is not the history of the United States, but the history of a small ethnocentric elite based on racial, religious, and class ideas of superiority. Until you are willing to consider the history of all Americans, you, sir, are a sorry excuse for an historian.

 

[José]

You're resorting to gross historical distortions, nit picking and hair splitting in an attempt to confuse the whole issue, fart.

Just a small example:

Originally posted by oldfart
In 1700, by best estimates Europeans comprised less than 10% of the population of the current territory of the United States. But you only consider the history of the European settlers trapped on a thin strip of Atlantic coast as valid.

Gross distortion... so gross it becomes comic...

In 1700 that "thin strip of the Atlantic coast" WAS the United States (or rather the british colonies that would become America) not Texas, California or Hawai.

Texas demographics is about as relevant to establish America's racial composition in 1700 as Zimbabwe's.

Originally posted by oldfart
In 1750 you are relying on the history of English settlers who regarded Germans as "foreigners". The English in America of 1750 considered themselves culturally superior to Germans (even if they did have a German king!) and despised the Irish as inferior creatures.

So yes, until after WWII the majority of the white ruling elite in the United States considered the nation to be founded on a "white" culture which excluded southern Europeans, and East Europeans.

The irish, southern and eastern europeans were always considered whites. What they were not considered was anglos, germanic peoples and yes there was resistance to non-anglo, non-germanic immigration waves but this in no way delegitimize America's european national identity or her massively white demographics.

More smokescreen and intellectual dishonesty coming from a desperate poster grasping at straws, trying to deny a reality that's in front of his eyes:

Until the period between the end of WWII and 1965 America was a country founded by europeans, with a european national character/identity and massively inhabited by europeans = 90%.

You're free to accept the multiracialist ideology post-WWII America has adopted as the best path for the country to take, oldfart. What you are not free to do (or at least shouldn't be) is rape the History of the United States.

 

[José]

Originally posted by oldfart
I would greatly like to see you recognize that the history you refer to is not the history of the United States, but the history of a small ethnocentric elite based on racial, religious, and class ideas of superiority.

Tell this the vast majority of american citizens who in 1965 strongly opposed any change in America's immigration laws that allowed mass non-white immigration into the country...

Tell them they were a minority, not me!!

They were so convinced that the US had indeed an european national identity and were so adamantly opposed to the destruction of America's racial composition that Teddy Kennedy, Johnson and many other american politicians had to lie through their teeth assuring the american people over and over that the 1965 Immigration Act would not destroy the country's racial makeup (it did, by allowing massive non-white legal immigration).

 

[SFC Ollie]

Ollie... listen...

Almost all the posters here were still in their formative years in the 60's, when the american people began being bombarded with the (false) idea that the national identity of the country was not european...

You, just like montrovant, editec, gracie, Clayton, trajan, have been subjected to a massive indoctrination/brainwashing campaign for the last 60 years whose only purpose is to convince you that 300 years of America considering himself a white country, being massively inhabited by europeans and protecting her racial composition at all costs was a mere "coincidence", an irrelevant "detail".

Now... you are all totally free to accept the new multiracial self-definition America adopted from 1960 on... when the country "gave up" being a white nation, so to speak.

You are free to firmly believe this was the best decision the country has ever made in all of its history.

But we cannot deny the history of the United States.. this is intellectual dishonesty.

Whether the US should have continued to consider itself a white nation after WWII is a matter of opinion... it can be debated at will.

But the fact that for most of its history the US was indeed a white country is a historical reality and historical realities cannot be denied.

I strongly opposed the multiracialist ideology but I'm honest enough to admit the fact that America did redifine herself as a multiracial country after WWII.

I would like to see the same intellectual honesty from multiracialists. I'd like to see them conceding the fact that the country was indeed founded by white people, based on european values and considered itself a white country for most of its history.

As I said elsewhere...

Personal opinions are open for debate not facts...

When you start denying historical facts, it's no longer political debate, it's crazy people talk.

All this crazy talk from a Latino who hates Latinos.... Yep that's plenty crazy.

So there weren't any orientals in California, nor any Mexicans in Texas and other SW states when they joined the union? Really? You want to go with that? And in the 1960's some of my best friends were Puerto Rican and Black...And you know, as children, we didn't know the difference....We were just friends from the same street.....

Now I'm not going to look up the cultural makeup of all these different states, nor when they became part of the Union....But I do know this much, you are writing them out of your version of history....Why don't you just go back to the country you were born in and rewrite theirs....

 

[Montrovant]

Ollie... listen...

Almost all the posters here were still in their formative years in the 60's, when the american people began being bombarded with the (false) idea that the national identity of the country was not european...

You, just like montrovant, editec, gracie, Clayton, trajan, have been subjected to a massive indoctrination/brainwashing campaign for the last 60 years whose only purpose is to convince you that 300 years of America considering himself a white country, being massively inhabited by europeans and protecting her racial composition at all costs was a mere "coincidence", an irrelevant "detail".

Now... you are all totally free to accept the new multiracial self-definition America adopted from 1960 on... when the country "gave up" being a white nation, so to speak.

You are free to firmly believe this was the best decision the country has ever made in all of its history.

But we cannot deny the history of the United States.. this is intellectual dishonesty.

Whether the US should have continued to consider itself a white nation after WWII is a matter of opinion... it can be debated at will.

But the fact that for most of its history the US was indeed a white country is a historical reality and historical realities cannot be denied.

I strongly opposed the multiracialist ideology but I'm honest enough to admit the fact that America did redifine herself as a multiracial country after WWII.

I would like to see the same intellectual honesty from multiracialists. I'd like to see them conceding the fact that the country was indeed founded by white people, based on european values and considered itself a white country for most of its history.

As I said elsewhere...

Personal opinions are open for debate not facts...

When you start denying historical facts, it's no longer political debate, it's crazy people talk.

Who is arguing that the US has been, for most of its history, run by whites? That the majority of our leaders and representatives have been white? That the racial makeup of the country has been mostly white?

On the other hand, it can be argued that these things do not or did not make us a 'white nation'. How you define that phrase is important. It is the same as the argument that we are or have been a Christian nation. Does the majority of the country claim Christian beliefs? Yes. Are we a country run by Christian rules? No.

Perhaps you should explain specifically what you mean when you say the US considered itself a white country for most of its history.

I was not in my formative years in the 60s. I wasn't even born until the 70s. So for my entire life, multiculturalism has been the norm to one degree or another.

 

[oldfart]

Until the period between the end of WWII and 1965 America was a country founded by europeans, with a european national character/identity and massively inhabited by europeans = 90%.

Sport, according to the United States Census Bureau, the last time white Europeans accounted for 90% or more of the population was 1690. I'd provide you a citation, but since you already know everything, you don't need one.

As for the rest, you are impervious to knowledge so there is no sense in dealing with you.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Quote:
We are a community of racial realists and idealists. We are White Nationalists who support true diversity and a homeland for all peoples. Thousands of organizations promote the interests, values and heritage of non-White minorities. We promote ours. We are the voice of the new, embattled White minority!

Here's my problem with the above statement and the group behind it. Whites are neither embattled nor are they a minority.

When whites in this country have experienced what it's like to have your son strung up in a tree because he dared to whistle at a black woman...then we'll begin to understand what "embattled" really means.

I grew up in Native villages, where I was in fact a minority. But I wasn't treated badly because I was white.

The only time I ever got a taste of what it's like to be discriminated against was when I became involved with Hawaiian people in my youth. I was very accustomed to hearing the term, "stupid haole." But that's the only time, and most white people probably haven't experienced that.

So to me, when someone forms a group to be the voice of the new, embattled White minority, they are full of bullshit. They are just being creative in their racism, and that is exactly what they are...racists.

 

[Gracie]

The only time I ever got a taste of what it's like to be discriminated against was when I became involved with Hawaiian people in my youth. I was very accustomed to hearing the term, "stupid haole." But that's the only time, and most white people probably haven't experienced that.

Unfortunately, I experienced the same from hawaiians when I lived there.