WOW!! Trump's ME peace plan looks unbelievable!!

[DOTR]

So this is a serious proposal then? Can't watch atm

It is.
It hinges on Palestinians morphing from dogs into humans, not sure that happens, but so far it does appear that if anyone can make it happen, It would be President Trump.

Palestinian leaders were calling for riots just yesterday

They have that in common with Democrats

 

[georgephillip]

Probably because Israel has lots of Arab MDs and attorneys and Arab nations have lots of machine guns and machetes.

Which side has killed more children-killing drones?

Photos: Israeli strikes leave four children dead on Gaza beach - Firstpost

 

[DOTR]

On paper and in theory it sounds good, but we want to see the map. Let the people see the map.

The map doubles the size of land Palestine currently controls...

Twice the misery.

 

[Wapasha]

Palestinian leaders were calling for riots just yesterday

Why, cuz they don't want a Palestinian state?

 

[CWayne]

Ok, first, since when does Israel have Jewish settlements in Gaza? Did I miss something?...

Not since 2005...but since the Trump era -- we have definitely gave Israel a wink and a nod that building settlements there in the future won't be something we oppose.....

"and Israel will not build more settlements in the interim of this deal being finalized."

Pfft, that's fairly unlikely.

As for me, I'm not against anything, I just heard this a hundred times and again, and I'm in general kind of skeptical about it all. You would have been too were you in my shoes. If the two states solution works, which I highly doubt, then sure, what the heck, why not. I just don't believe in magic.

It's ok to be skeptical...both the Palestinians and Israelis have a right to be skeptical about our ability to broker deals and honor them.....

We're not the ones who have to honor it.

They are.

I would be interested in learning what teeth this proposal has in it for when Palestinians violate it.

I think a frog march to Syria would be in order; for all of them.

 

[Indeependent]

You are correct...Arabs without machine guns are 2nd class citizens in most Arab nations.

Jews are Chosen?

"Israel has constitutionally put its Jewishness ahead of its so-called democracy.

"Last week, the Knesset (Israel’s parliament) voted 62 in favour and 55 against with 2 abstentions, to pass the most racist legislation ever known that directly aims to discriminate against its Palestinian inhabitants.

"Frankly, the vote won’t change much of the life of Palestinians who are 22 per cent of Israel’s population and have always experienced Israel’s brutality since its creation in 1948.

"The only difference now after the vote is that discrimination against Arabs in Israel has become officially legal."

Arabs are now officially second-class citizens

And what’s the Islamic reason for subjugation their own people?

And what’s the Islamic reason for subjugation their own people?

The usual authoritarian impulses, including minimal, ill-defined executive powers, often vague and shifting, which extend the power of corrupt, inept executives. (sound familiar?)
Why would anyone condemn one such oligarchy and praise another?

Probably because Israel has lots of Arab MDs and attorneys and Arab nations have lots of machine guns and machetes.

Probably because Israel has lots of Arab MDs and attorneys and Arab nations have lots of machine guns and machetes.

Which side has killed more children-killing drones?

Photos: Israeli strikes leave four children dead on Gaza beach - Firstpost

Probably because Israel has lots of Arab MDs and attorneys and Arab nations have lots of machine guns and machetes.

Which side has killed more children-killing drones?

Photos: Israeli strikes leave four children dead on Gaza beach - Firstpost

please explain why Hamas brings children to the battlefield.
Perhaps you are also psycho enough to bring children to a battlefield.

 

[Billiejeens]

Palestinian leaders were calling for riots just yesterday

Why, cuz they don't want a Palestinian state?

They don't want peace
Ever.

 

[rightwinger]

Looks like a Gerrymander designed by Israel

 

[Persistence Of Memory]

QUESTIONS PLEASE

How and WHY would a thread be moved after 8 pages??????????

THIS thread was started while I was WATCHING IT LIVE. Is this considered a current event? Live in front of my F eyes???

What is a CURRENT EVENT???

 

[ForeverYoung436]

You are correct...Arabs without machine guns are 2nd class citizens in most Arab nations.

Jews are Chosen?

"Israel has constitutionally put its Jewishness ahead of its so-called democracy.

"Last week, the Knesset (Israel’s parliament) voted 62 in favour and 55 against with 2 abstentions, to pass the most racist legislation ever known that directly aims to discriminate against its Palestinian inhabitants.

"Frankly, the vote won’t change much of the life of Palestinians who are 22 per cent of Israel’s population and have always experienced Israel’s brutality since its creation in 1948.

"The only difference now after the vote is that discrimination against Arabs in Israel has become officially legal."

Arabs are now officially second-class citizens

You once said that the reason you like to malign Jews and Israel so much is because we think we are the "Chosen People". Don't born-again Christians call themselves "G-d's Elect"? Don't Muslims believe they are the "True Believers"? Even Buddhists believe they are the "Enlightened Ones." This sense of entitlement is not limited to any one faith. You show one Israeli soldier gone amok. How about all the masked Arab terrorists who lust for Jewish blood?

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think I'm any more special than you are. And unlike Christians and Muslims, Jews are equal-opportunity employers. Yes, any righteous Jew OR Gentile can get into Heaven. Christians and Muslims cast into Hell all those who don't believe in Jesus or Allah.

Yes, Israel is for the Jewish People. But many non-Jews live there too. Meanwhile, no Jew may enter Saudi Arabia or Jordan. The entire Arab Middle East is cleansed of Jews, for the most part. Arabs have 22 countries, Muslims 56. Why can't the Jews have just one?

 

[JoeB131]

Best plan yet- you go back where you came from.

I came from Chicago. I'm still in Chicago.

 

[JoeB131]

The are vile dogs that no other Arab country wants.
Dogs dont own land.

Funny, I thought the whole purpose of Israel was that the Europeans didn't want the Jews.... You know, "A land without a people for a people without a land." Whoops. There are people here... Well, let's just chase them off. WHat, that's what the Nazis did to us? Um...er... yeah, okay.... but this is different.

 

[Mindful]

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?
by Alain Destexhe

• Israel and the future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology.
  
  
• It is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And... there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.
  
  
• Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.
  
  
• Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority may remain self-righteous and draped in their claims, but it would unmask their real role as corrupt and autocratic leaders, intent on keeping their people as destitute and unempowered as possible.
  
  President Donald Trump just unveiled his long-awaited Middle East peace plan, "Peace to Prosperity", a strategy offering the Palestinians a state, $50 billion in international investment, and a US embassy in the newly-created state. This is a major step forward that the Palestinian Authority would be smart to accept as a starting point for discussions with Israel.

President Trump made an appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:

"President Abbas, I want you to know that if you choose the path to peace, America and many other countries will be there. We will be there to help you in so many different ways... Your response to this historic opportunity will show the world to what extent you are ready to lead the Palestinian people to statehood... Today's agreement is a historic opportunity for the Palestinians to finally achieve an independent state of their very own. After 70 years of little progress, this could be the last opportunity they will ever have."

But it is Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump's son-in-law, who oversaw the plan, which probably best describes the Palestinian mood: "It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians... they have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past." He urged Palestinian leaders to "stop posturing" and accept the plan.

Yet, most probably, the Palestinian leadership will prefer "posturing" and reject concrete steps forward in order to keep pursuing unrealistic demands such as the "right of return," which is at the heart of the failures of past plans. Everyone knows that the right of return for the descendants of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948 would mean the end of a Jewish state, which, of course, no Jewish party could ever accept.

Maintaining the fiction that the descendants of the 1948 exiles are refugees is at the heart of the Palestinian identity and struggle. No Palestinian leader wants to give it up even though they know that this argument is far from the reality on the ground.

Recognizing as "refugees" fourth-generation Palestinians living in crushing poverty in "refugee camps" that have since long become cities, while neither their parents nor often their grandparents have known the beaches of Jaffa or Haifa is pure nonsense. By supporting a specialized agency of the United Nations, UNRWA, which indirectly finances and legitimizes Hamas in Gaza, European countries and others have fostered the illusion of this right of return.

Let us reflect for a moment on the aberration of this situation. After all, no one is destined to remain a refugee indefinitely. Are the Jews who were expelled from a series of Arab countries after 1948 still refugees? What about the Germans from the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia, the Boat People of Vietnam, or the Bosnians during the Yugoslav Wars? Will Syrians and Afghans recently arrived in Europe still be regarded as "refugees" in 50 years? It will be argued that the Palestinians have no other state of which they can easily become citizens. Certainly, but are the UN, European, and Arab countries doing them a service by maintaining them in this illusion that has lasted for the last 70 years? And would we still be calling them "Palestinian refugees" without international recognition of this status, often, seemingly, to punish Israel for successfully bringing its land into the 21st century?

The 1993 Oslo Accord led to a boom in the Palestinian economy. Ramallah and Gaza have nothing to do with the cities this author had known when they were under Israeli rule. Still, their potential for economic development is greatly untapped, and the majority of Palestinians are still poor. Perhaps their leaders like it that way, the better to have absolute control over them? Gaza could become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.

After coming to power through elections in 2006, Hamas has systematically chosen war over economic prosperity. When he decided to withdraw from Gaza, the "hawk" Ariel Sharon had promised more security for the Israelis. The opposite happened. More than a million Israelis are regularly forced to hide in bomb shelters to avoid the deluge of fire that Hamas launches from Gaza. Hamas also murdered dozens of Fatah members when it ousted Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas from Gaza and took control. President Abbas has not been able to set foot in Gaza to see his house there for the past 12 years.

The Palestinians already enjoy broad autonomy. The Israeli economy is prosperous and could employ hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. If they renounce terrorism, the number of those authorized to work in Israel could increase significantly. The Palestinian leaders, if they actually cared about the welfare of people, should focus on development and prosperity rather than on fostering a perverse and morbid culture of "martyrs".

Israel and a future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology. President Trump is offering money and investments, and it will be in Israel's interest to open its doors to broader economic cooperation.

Last but not least, it is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And in the current global situation, there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.

Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.

Let us be realistic. There is no other plan on the table, and there will probably be no new -- better -- plan in the coming years. Israel can never give in on the security of its territory or agree on the "right" of Palestinians to "return."


Alain Destexhe, a columnist and political analyst, is an honorary Senator in Belgium and former Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières / Doctors Without Borders.

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?

 

[mudwhistle]

Time for Democrats to claim ME peace is just to help Putin.

Democrats are waiting to see if it's a success so they can claim credit for it.

 

[Indeependent]

The are vile dogs that no other Arab country wants.
Dogs dont own land.

Funny, I thought the whole purpose of Israel was that the Europeans didn't want the Jews.... You know, "A land without a people for a people without a land." Whoops. There are people here... Well, let's just chase them off. WHat, that's what the Nazis did to us? Um...er... yeah, okay.... but this is different.

Nobody kicked them out.
I hear you’re running a campaign to return Chicago to the Native Americans.

 

[rightwinger]

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?
by Alain Destexhe

• Israel and the future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology.
  
  
• It is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And... there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.
  
  
• Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.
  
  
• Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority may remain self-righteous and draped in their claims, but it would unmask their real role as corrupt and autocratic leaders, intent on keeping their people as destitute and unempowered as possible.
  
  President Donald Trump just unveiled his long-awaited Middle East peace plan, "Peace to Prosperity", a strategy offering the Palestinians a state, $50 billion in international investment, and a US embassy in the newly-created state. This is a major step forward that the Palestinian Authority would be smart to accept as a starting point for discussions with Israel.

President Trump made an appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:

"President Abbas, I want you to know that if you choose the path to peace, America and many other countries will be there. We will be there to help you in so many different ways... Your response to this historic opportunity will show the world to what extent you are ready to lead the Palestinian people to statehood... Today's agreement is a historic opportunity for the Palestinians to finally achieve an independent state of their very own. After 70 years of little progress, this could be the last opportunity they will ever have."

But it is Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump's son-in-law, who oversaw the plan, which probably best describes the Palestinian mood: "It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians... they have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past." He urged Palestinian leaders to "stop posturing" and accept the plan.

Yet, most probably, the Palestinian leadership will prefer "posturing" and reject concrete steps forward in order to keep pursuing unrealistic demands such as the "right of return," which is at the heart of the failures of past plans. Everyone knows that the right of return for the descendants of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948 would mean the end of a Jewish state, which, of course, no Jewish party could ever accept.

Maintaining the fiction that the descendants of the 1948 exiles are refugees is at the heart of the Palestinian identity and struggle. No Palestinian leader wants to give it up even though they know that this argument is far from the reality on the ground.

Recognizing as "refugees" fourth-generation Palestinians living in crushing poverty in "refugee camps" that have since long become cities, while neither their parents nor often their grandparents have known the beaches of Jaffa or Haifa is pure nonsense. By supporting a specialized agency of the United Nations, UNRWA, which indirectly finances and legitimizes Hamas in Gaza, European countries and others have fostered the illusion of this right of return.

Let us reflect for a moment on the aberration of this situation. After all, no one is destined to remain a refugee indefinitely. Are the Jews who were expelled from a series of Arab countries after 1948 still refugees? What about the Germans from the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia, the Boat People of Vietnam, or the Bosnians during the Yugoslav Wars? Will Syrians and Afghans recently arrived in Europe still be regarded as "refugees" in 50 years? It will be argued that the Palestinians have no other state of which they can easily become citizens. Certainly, but are the UN, European, and Arab countries doing them a service by maintaining them in this illusion that has lasted for the last 70 years? And would we still be calling them "Palestinian refugees" without international recognition of this status, often, seemingly, to punish Israel for successfully bringing its land into the 21st century?

The 1993 Oslo Accord led to a boom in the Palestinian economy. Ramallah and Gaza have nothing to do with the cities this author had known when they were under Israeli rule. Still, their potential for economic development is greatly untapped, and the majority of Palestinians are still poor. Perhaps their leaders like it that way, the better to have absolute control over them? Gaza could become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.

After coming to power through elections in 2006, Hamas has systematically chosen war over economic prosperity. When he decided to withdraw from Gaza, the "hawk" Ariel Sharon had promised more security for the Israelis. The opposite happened. More than a million Israelis are regularly forced to hide in bomb shelters to avoid the deluge of fire that Hamas launches from Gaza. Hamas also murdered dozens of Fatah members when it ousted Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas from Gaza and took control. President Abbas has not been able to set foot in Gaza to see his house there for the past 12 years.

The Palestinians already enjoy broad autonomy. The Israeli economy is prosperous and could employ hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. If they renounce terrorism, the number of those authorized to work in Israel could increase significantly. The Palestinian leaders, if they actually cared about the welfare of people, should focus on development and prosperity rather than on fostering a perverse and morbid culture of "martyrs".

Israel and a future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology. President Trump is offering money and investments, and it will be in Israel's interest to open its doors to broader economic cooperation.

Last but not least, it is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And in the current global situation, there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.

Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.

Let us be realistic. There is no other plan on the table, and there will probably be no new -- better -- plan in the coming years. Israel can never give in on the security of its territory or agree on the "right" of Palestinians to "return."


Alain Destexhe, a columnist and political analyst, is an honorary Senator in Belgium and former Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières / Doctors Without Borders.

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?

Basically, it tells the Palestinians, you lost so take what we give you

If it is such a great deal, why wasn’t Palestine allowed at the bargaining table?
Why did Israel get every disputed territory and Palestine get the leftovers?

 

[Mindful]

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?
by Alain Destexhe

• Israel and the future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology.
  
  
• It is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And... there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.
  
  
• Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.
  
  
• Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority may remain self-righteous and draped in their claims, but it would unmask their real role as corrupt and autocratic leaders, intent on keeping their people as destitute and unempowered as possible.
  
  President Donald Trump just unveiled his long-awaited Middle East peace plan, "Peace to Prosperity", a strategy offering the Palestinians a state, $50 billion in international investment, and a US embassy in the newly-created state. This is a major step forward that the Palestinian Authority would be smart to accept as a starting point for discussions with Israel.

President Trump made an appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:

"President Abbas, I want you to know that if you choose the path to peace, America and many other countries will be there. We will be there to help you in so many different ways... Your response to this historic opportunity will show the world to what extent you are ready to lead the Palestinian people to statehood... Today's agreement is a historic opportunity for the Palestinians to finally achieve an independent state of their very own. After 70 years of little progress, this could be the last opportunity they will ever have."

But it is Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump's son-in-law, who oversaw the plan, which probably best describes the Palestinian mood: "It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians... they have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past." He urged Palestinian leaders to "stop posturing" and accept the plan.

Yet, most probably, the Palestinian leadership will prefer "posturing" and reject concrete steps forward in order to keep pursuing unrealistic demands such as the "right of return," which is at the heart of the failures of past plans. Everyone knows that the right of return for the descendants of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948 would mean the end of a Jewish state, which, of course, no Jewish party could ever accept.

Maintaining the fiction that the descendants of the 1948 exiles are refugees is at the heart of the Palestinian identity and struggle. No Palestinian leader wants to give it up even though they know that this argument is far from the reality on the ground.

Recognizing as "refugees" fourth-generation Palestinians living in crushing poverty in "refugee camps" that have since long become cities, while neither their parents nor often their grandparents have known the beaches of Jaffa or Haifa is pure nonsense. By supporting a specialized agency of the United Nations, UNRWA, which indirectly finances and legitimizes Hamas in Gaza, European countries and others have fostered the illusion of this right of return.

Let us reflect for a moment on the aberration of this situation. After all, no one is destined to remain a refugee indefinitely. Are the Jews who were expelled from a series of Arab countries after 1948 still refugees? What about the Germans from the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia, the Boat People of Vietnam, or the Bosnians during the Yugoslav Wars? Will Syrians and Afghans recently arrived in Europe still be regarded as "refugees" in 50 years? It will be argued that the Palestinians have no other state of which they can easily become citizens. Certainly, but are the UN, European, and Arab countries doing them a service by maintaining them in this illusion that has lasted for the last 70 years? And would we still be calling them "Palestinian refugees" without international recognition of this status, often, seemingly, to punish Israel for successfully bringing its land into the 21st century?

The 1993 Oslo Accord led to a boom in the Palestinian economy. Ramallah and Gaza have nothing to do with the cities this author had known when they were under Israeli rule. Still, their potential for economic development is greatly untapped, and the majority of Palestinians are still poor. Perhaps their leaders like it that way, the better to have absolute control over them? Gaza could become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.

After coming to power through elections in 2006, Hamas has systematically chosen war over economic prosperity. When he decided to withdraw from Gaza, the "hawk" Ariel Sharon had promised more security for the Israelis. The opposite happened. More than a million Israelis are regularly forced to hide in bomb shelters to avoid the deluge of fire that Hamas launches from Gaza. Hamas also murdered dozens of Fatah members when it ousted Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas from Gaza and took control. President Abbas has not been able to set foot in Gaza to see his house there for the past 12 years.

The Palestinians already enjoy broad autonomy. The Israeli economy is prosperous and could employ hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. If they renounce terrorism, the number of those authorized to work in Israel could increase significantly. The Palestinian leaders, if they actually cared about the welfare of people, should focus on development and prosperity rather than on fostering a perverse and morbid culture of "martyrs".

Israel and a future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology. President Trump is offering money and investments, and it will be in Israel's interest to open its doors to broader economic cooperation.

Last but not least, it is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And in the current global situation, there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.

Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.

Let us be realistic. There is no other plan on the table, and there will probably be no new -- better -- plan in the coming years. Israel can never give in on the security of its territory or agree on the "right" of Palestinians to "return."


Alain Destexhe, a columnist and political analyst, is an honorary Senator in Belgium and former Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières / Doctors Without Borders.

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?

Basically, it tells the Palestinians, you lost so take what we give you

If it is such a great deal, why wasn’t Palestine allowed at the bargaining table?
Why did Israel get every disputed territory and Palestine get the leftovers?

No comment. I can't look at it in such simplistic terms.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?
by Alain Destexhe

• Israel and the future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology.
  
  
• It is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And... there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.
  
  
• Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.
  
  
• Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority may remain self-righteous and draped in their claims, but it would unmask their real role as corrupt and autocratic leaders, intent on keeping their people as destitute and unempowered as possible.
  
  President Donald Trump just unveiled his long-awaited Middle East peace plan, "Peace to Prosperity", a strategy offering the Palestinians a state, $50 billion in international investment, and a US embassy in the newly-created state. This is a major step forward that the Palestinian Authority would be smart to accept as a starting point for discussions with Israel.

President Trump made an appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:

"President Abbas, I want you to know that if you choose the path to peace, America and many other countries will be there. We will be there to help you in so many different ways... Your response to this historic opportunity will show the world to what extent you are ready to lead the Palestinian people to statehood... Today's agreement is a historic opportunity for the Palestinians to finally achieve an independent state of their very own. After 70 years of little progress, this could be the last opportunity they will ever have."

But it is Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump's son-in-law, who oversaw the plan, which probably best describes the Palestinian mood: "It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians... they have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past." He urged Palestinian leaders to "stop posturing" and accept the plan.

Yet, most probably, the Palestinian leadership will prefer "posturing" and reject concrete steps forward in order to keep pursuing unrealistic demands such as the "right of return," which is at the heart of the failures of past plans. Everyone knows that the right of return for the descendants of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948 would mean the end of a Jewish state, which, of course, no Jewish party could ever accept.

Maintaining the fiction that the descendants of the 1948 exiles are refugees is at the heart of the Palestinian identity and struggle. No Palestinian leader wants to give it up even though they know that this argument is far from the reality on the ground.

Recognizing as "refugees" fourth-generation Palestinians living in crushing poverty in "refugee camps" that have since long become cities, while neither their parents nor often their grandparents have known the beaches of Jaffa or Haifa is pure nonsense. By supporting a specialized agency of the United Nations, UNRWA, which indirectly finances and legitimizes Hamas in Gaza, European countries and others have fostered the illusion of this right of return.

Let us reflect for a moment on the aberration of this situation. After all, no one is destined to remain a refugee indefinitely. Are the Jews who were expelled from a series of Arab countries after 1948 still refugees? What about the Germans from the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia, the Boat People of Vietnam, or the Bosnians during the Yugoslav Wars? Will Syrians and Afghans recently arrived in Europe still be regarded as "refugees" in 50 years? It will be argued that the Palestinians have no other state of which they can easily become citizens. Certainly, but are the UN, European, and Arab countries doing them a service by maintaining them in this illusion that has lasted for the last 70 years? And would we still be calling them "Palestinian refugees" without international recognition of this status, often, seemingly, to punish Israel for successfully bringing its land into the 21st century?

The 1993 Oslo Accord led to a boom in the Palestinian economy. Ramallah and Gaza have nothing to do with the cities this author had known when they were under Israeli rule. Still, their potential for economic development is greatly untapped, and the majority of Palestinians are still poor. Perhaps their leaders like it that way, the better to have absolute control over them? Gaza could become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.

After coming to power through elections in 2006, Hamas has systematically chosen war over economic prosperity. When he decided to withdraw from Gaza, the "hawk" Ariel Sharon had promised more security for the Israelis. The opposite happened. More than a million Israelis are regularly forced to hide in bomb shelters to avoid the deluge of fire that Hamas launches from Gaza. Hamas also murdered dozens of Fatah members when it ousted Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas from Gaza and took control. President Abbas has not been able to set foot in Gaza to see his house there for the past 12 years.

The Palestinians already enjoy broad autonomy. The Israeli economy is prosperous and could employ hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. If they renounce terrorism, the number of those authorized to work in Israel could increase significantly. The Palestinian leaders, if they actually cared about the welfare of people, should focus on development and prosperity rather than on fostering a perverse and morbid culture of "martyrs".

Israel and a future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology. President Trump is offering money and investments, and it will be in Israel's interest to open its doors to broader economic cooperation.

Last but not least, it is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And in the current global situation, there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.

Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.

Let us be realistic. There is no other plan on the table, and there will probably be no new -- better -- plan in the coming years. Israel can never give in on the security of its territory or agree on the "right" of Palestinians to "return."


Alain Destexhe, a columnist and political analyst, is an honorary Senator in Belgium and former Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières / Doctors Without Borders.

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?

Basically, it tells the Palestinians, you lost so take what we give you

If it is such a great deal, why wasn’t Palestine allowed at the bargaining table?
Why did Israel get every disputed territory and Palestine get the leftovers?

1) Not only were the Palestinians "allowed" at the bargaining table, they were encouraged to come. They refused. Still, the door remains open for the next 4 years, during which time there will be a freeze on Jewish settlements.

2) The Israelis did not get every disputed territory. All of Judea (the West Bank) is disputed territory! Yet, the Palestinians will get a state there, plus more territory in the south of what is now Israel proper.

 

[rightwinger]

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?
by Alain Destexhe

• Israel and the future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology.
  
  
• It is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And... there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.
  
  
• Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.
  
  
• Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority may remain self-righteous and draped in their claims, but it would unmask their real role as corrupt and autocratic leaders, intent on keeping their people as destitute and unempowered as possible.
  
  President Donald Trump just unveiled his long-awaited Middle East peace plan, "Peace to Prosperity", a strategy offering the Palestinians a state, $50 billion in international investment, and a US embassy in the newly-created state. This is a major step forward that the Palestinian Authority would be smart to accept as a starting point for discussions with Israel.

President Trump made an appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:

"President Abbas, I want you to know that if you choose the path to peace, America and many other countries will be there. We will be there to help you in so many different ways... Your response to this historic opportunity will show the world to what extent you are ready to lead the Palestinian people to statehood... Today's agreement is a historic opportunity for the Palestinians to finally achieve an independent state of their very own. After 70 years of little progress, this could be the last opportunity they will ever have."

But it is Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump's son-in-law, who oversaw the plan, which probably best describes the Palestinian mood: "It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians... they have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past." He urged Palestinian leaders to "stop posturing" and accept the plan.

Yet, most probably, the Palestinian leadership will prefer "posturing" and reject concrete steps forward in order to keep pursuing unrealistic demands such as the "right of return," which is at the heart of the failures of past plans. Everyone knows that the right of return for the descendants of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948 would mean the end of a Jewish state, which, of course, no Jewish party could ever accept.

Maintaining the fiction that the descendants of the 1948 exiles are refugees is at the heart of the Palestinian identity and struggle. No Palestinian leader wants to give it up even though they know that this argument is far from the reality on the ground.

Recognizing as "refugees" fourth-generation Palestinians living in crushing poverty in "refugee camps" that have since long become cities, while neither their parents nor often their grandparents have known the beaches of Jaffa or Haifa is pure nonsense. By supporting a specialized agency of the United Nations, UNRWA, which indirectly finances and legitimizes Hamas in Gaza, European countries and others have fostered the illusion of this right of return.

Let us reflect for a moment on the aberration of this situation. After all, no one is destined to remain a refugee indefinitely. Are the Jews who were expelled from a series of Arab countries after 1948 still refugees? What about the Germans from the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia, the Boat People of Vietnam, or the Bosnians during the Yugoslav Wars? Will Syrians and Afghans recently arrived in Europe still be regarded as "refugees" in 50 years? It will be argued that the Palestinians have no other state of which they can easily become citizens. Certainly, but are the UN, European, and Arab countries doing them a service by maintaining them in this illusion that has lasted for the last 70 years? And would we still be calling them "Palestinian refugees" without international recognition of this status, often, seemingly, to punish Israel for successfully bringing its land into the 21st century?

The 1993 Oslo Accord led to a boom in the Palestinian economy. Ramallah and Gaza have nothing to do with the cities this author had known when they were under Israeli rule. Still, their potential for economic development is greatly untapped, and the majority of Palestinians are still poor. Perhaps their leaders like it that way, the better to have absolute control over them? Gaza could become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.

After coming to power through elections in 2006, Hamas has systematically chosen war over economic prosperity. When he decided to withdraw from Gaza, the "hawk" Ariel Sharon had promised more security for the Israelis. The opposite happened. More than a million Israelis are regularly forced to hide in bomb shelters to avoid the deluge of fire that Hamas launches from Gaza. Hamas also murdered dozens of Fatah members when it ousted Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas from Gaza and took control. President Abbas has not been able to set foot in Gaza to see his house there for the past 12 years.

The Palestinians already enjoy broad autonomy. The Israeli economy is prosperous and could employ hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. If they renounce terrorism, the number of those authorized to work in Israel could increase significantly. The Palestinian leaders, if they actually cared about the welfare of people, should focus on development and prosperity rather than on fostering a perverse and morbid culture of "martyrs".

Israel and a future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology. President Trump is offering money and investments, and it will be in Israel's interest to open its doors to broader economic cooperation.

Last but not least, it is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And in the current global situation, there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.

Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.

Let us be realistic. There is no other plan on the table, and there will probably be no new -- better -- plan in the coming years. Israel can never give in on the security of its territory or agree on the "right" of Palestinians to "return."


Alain Destexhe, a columnist and political analyst, is an honorary Senator in Belgium and former Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières / Doctors Without Borders.

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?

Basically, it tells the Palestinians, you lost so take what we give you

If it is such a great deal, why wasn’t Palestine allowed at the bargaining table?
Why did Israel get every disputed territory and Palestine get the leftovers?

No comment. I can't look at it in such simplistic terms.

I realize that including the affected party at the negotiating table is simplistic

 

[rightwinger]

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?
by Alain Destexhe

• Israel and the future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology.
  
  
• It is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And... there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.
  
  
• Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.
  
  
• Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority may remain self-righteous and draped in their claims, but it would unmask their real role as corrupt and autocratic leaders, intent on keeping their people as destitute and unempowered as possible.
  
  President Donald Trump just unveiled his long-awaited Middle East peace plan, "Peace to Prosperity", a strategy offering the Palestinians a state, $50 billion in international investment, and a US embassy in the newly-created state. This is a major step forward that the Palestinian Authority would be smart to accept as a starting point for discussions with Israel.

President Trump made an appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:

"President Abbas, I want you to know that if you choose the path to peace, America and many other countries will be there. We will be there to help you in so many different ways... Your response to this historic opportunity will show the world to what extent you are ready to lead the Palestinian people to statehood... Today's agreement is a historic opportunity for the Palestinians to finally achieve an independent state of their very own. After 70 years of little progress, this could be the last opportunity they will ever have."

But it is Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump's son-in-law, who oversaw the plan, which probably best describes the Palestinian mood: "It's a big opportunity for the Palestinians... they have a perfect track record of blowing every opportunity they've had in their past." He urged Palestinian leaders to "stop posturing" and accept the plan.

Yet, most probably, the Palestinian leadership will prefer "posturing" and reject concrete steps forward in order to keep pursuing unrealistic demands such as the "right of return," which is at the heart of the failures of past plans. Everyone knows that the right of return for the descendants of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948 would mean the end of a Jewish state, which, of course, no Jewish party could ever accept.

Maintaining the fiction that the descendants of the 1948 exiles are refugees is at the heart of the Palestinian identity and struggle. No Palestinian leader wants to give it up even though they know that this argument is far from the reality on the ground.

Recognizing as "refugees" fourth-generation Palestinians living in crushing poverty in "refugee camps" that have since long become cities, while neither their parents nor often their grandparents have known the beaches of Jaffa or Haifa is pure nonsense. By supporting a specialized agency of the United Nations, UNRWA, which indirectly finances and legitimizes Hamas in Gaza, European countries and others have fostered the illusion of this right of return.

Let us reflect for a moment on the aberration of this situation. After all, no one is destined to remain a refugee indefinitely. Are the Jews who were expelled from a series of Arab countries after 1948 still refugees? What about the Germans from the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia, the Boat People of Vietnam, or the Bosnians during the Yugoslav Wars? Will Syrians and Afghans recently arrived in Europe still be regarded as "refugees" in 50 years? It will be argued that the Palestinians have no other state of which they can easily become citizens. Certainly, but are the UN, European, and Arab countries doing them a service by maintaining them in this illusion that has lasted for the last 70 years? And would we still be calling them "Palestinian refugees" without international recognition of this status, often, seemingly, to punish Israel for successfully bringing its land into the 21st century?

The 1993 Oslo Accord led to a boom in the Palestinian economy. Ramallah and Gaza have nothing to do with the cities this author had known when they were under Israeli rule. Still, their potential for economic development is greatly untapped, and the majority of Palestinians are still poor. Perhaps their leaders like it that way, the better to have absolute control over them? Gaza could become a Singapore on the Mediterranean.

After coming to power through elections in 2006, Hamas has systematically chosen war over economic prosperity. When he decided to withdraw from Gaza, the "hawk" Ariel Sharon had promised more security for the Israelis. The opposite happened. More than a million Israelis are regularly forced to hide in bomb shelters to avoid the deluge of fire that Hamas launches from Gaza. Hamas also murdered dozens of Fatah members when it ousted Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas from Gaza and took control. President Abbas has not been able to set foot in Gaza to see his house there for the past 12 years.

The Palestinians already enjoy broad autonomy. The Israeli economy is prosperous and could employ hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. If they renounce terrorism, the number of those authorized to work in Israel could increase significantly. The Palestinian leaders, if they actually cared about the welfare of people, should focus on development and prosperity rather than on fostering a perverse and morbid culture of "martyrs".

Israel and a future Palestinian state could sign bilateral agreements and cooperate for their mutual benefit in many areas where Israeli expertise is recognized: agriculture, water, scientific research, technology, medicine. Why should the Palestinians be the only people not benefiting from it? The Trump deal could provide a dazzling future for those Palestinians who prioritize their economic situation over ideology. President Trump is offering money and investments, and it will be in Israel's interest to open its doors to broader economic cooperation.

Last but not least, it is also highly unlikely that any potential Democrat administration would come up with a more Palestinian-friendly plan that could also be accepted by Israel. And in the current global situation, there is little chance that the Palestinian cause will return to the center of the international agenda and find new allies, except on European and American university campuses.

Instead of openly supporting the Trump Plan, the European Union has already reacted in its usual way: by saying nothing substantial -- which is tantamount to preferring the current impasse and encouraging the Palestinians in their rejection of the Trump Plan and Israel. Cynicism will continue to prevail in European diplomatic circles.

Let us be realistic. There is no other plan on the table, and there will probably be no new -- better -- plan in the coming years. Israel can never give in on the security of its territory or agree on the "right" of Palestinians to "return."


Alain Destexhe, a columnist and political analyst, is an honorary Senator in Belgium and former Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières / Doctors Without Borders.

Trump Middle East Plan: Last Chance for the Palestinians?

Basically, it tells the Palestinians, you lost so take what we give you

If it is such a great deal, why wasn’t Palestine allowed at the bargaining table?
Why did Israel get every disputed territory and Palestine get the leftovers?

1) Not only were the Palestinians "allowed" at the bargaining table, they were encouraged to come. They refused. Still, the door remains open for the next 4 years, during which time there will be a freeze on Jewish settlements.

2) The Israelis did not get every disputed territory. All of Judea (the West Bank) is disputed territory! Yet, the Palestinians will get a state there, plus more territory in the south of what is now Israel proper.

The territory to the south is desert wasteland
Kind of like Indian Reservations