Women protest Bush on the abortion Bill...

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
As for the question about abuse, please start looking at the statistics of unwanted babies. There is clear evidence that those who are born to ill-equipped parents, parents that don't want them, drug addicts, etc. are quite likely to be abused. Abuse begets abuse. Furthermore, it is not as simple as saying that those who can get pregnant and do should just "step up" and be good parents. History clearly indicates that they don't.

This sounds to me like the 'lost cause' argument. Since history shows it won't happen we shouldn't bother, right? People keep saying "it's not so simple." Well, why? In some cases will it be hard. yes, but it is no more difficult for the poor who do have planned pregnancies. All you can ask of anyone is to do there best. Most of the time children will turn out okay then. That is what i would expect of any parent whether the child is wanted or not. Seems fairly simple to me.

And society suffers. Children who are abused, abandoned, unwanted and ill-cared for tend to grow up to be abusers- of women, of their own children, of other people's children. That's a pretty real cost so it's not just about the money. (Although I am not sure why money is such an invalid argument.) Others become drug addicted, criminals, etc. Again, that's a cost to society. Not just in money but in lives and suffering.

I have heard this one before too. To say abortion is okay becasue of what the child MIGHT become is completely wrong. If you had known Hitler's mother when she was pregnant with Adolph would it have been okay to abort him? No, beacause there would have been plenty of opportunities to intervene in the meantime.

The fact that you haven't thought of what happens in the case of rape is, I believe, "off the deep end".

Read it again bud, I didn't say haven't thought about. I said i haven't decided. There's a difference.

certainly agree that unless actions have consequences, whether good or bad, there is little effect on behavior. The point I disagree with is that abortion is as simple as stating "take care of the kid" or "have an abortion". There are many things to consider when deciding who should suffer what consequences. So far neither side of this argument has convinced me that they think of the other or society as a whole. All I see are people making pronouncements of a concrete nature. Life in general is so rarely concrete.

Sure there are things to consider. It just seems the baby usually gets considered last and is secondary to what the mother feels. The baby is innocent. It should not have to suffer whether it was conceived by mistake or otherwise

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by Big D
Ya, If a 13 year old girl gets raped and becomes pregnate, it's her fault for not having birth control.

Nice.

Did I state that? Or are you going to be another Liberal and just ASSUME I did. I stated exactly in the quote YOU highlighted.

"As far as the rape goes, as well as incest, etc., cases like that are special."

This means that there would be a possibility of making a case for abortion in rape/incest. This is a touchy subject, because the victim is already traumatized (my best friend was raped by her boyfriend, and has been in counseling for 3 years now) and most are likely in no mental state to care for another human being that needs 24 hour care. Although I would want to urge to have the child, but give the child to a couple who want to adopt. This certainly is something that would warrant more thought. I would understand though, if the victim would want to abort.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
This sounds to me like the 'lost cause' argument. Since history shows it won't happen we shouldn't bother, right? People keep saying "it's not so simple." Well, why? In some cases will it be hard. yes, but it is no more difficult for the poor who do have planned pregnancies. All you can ask of anyone is to do there best. Most of the time children will turn out okay then. That is what i would expect of any parent whether the child is wanted or not. Seems fairly simple to me.



I have heard this one before too. To say abortion is okay becasue of what the child MIGHT become is completely wrong. If you had known Hitler's mother when she was pregnant with Adolph would it have been okay to abort him? No, beacause there would have been plenty of opportunities to intervene in the meantime.


Read it again bud, I didn't say haven't thought about. I said i haven't decided. There's a difference.



Sure there are things to consider. It just seems the baby usually gets considered last and is secondary to what the mother feels. The baby is innocent. It should not have to suffer whether it was conceived by mistake or otherwise

Well, all I know is that whether people are pro/anti abortion, the majority are very unlikely to be the ones suffering the consequences. It's all well and good to force other people to suffer the consequences of actions...the aborted babies in one case or society as a whole on the other.

As for me, there are times when murder is necessary. Is that unsavory- of course. But I also think that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. I'm willing to allow for the possibility that abortion is a necessary evil at times for that to happen.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by fuzzykitten99
Did I state that? Or are you going to be another Liberal I would understand though, if the victim would want to abort.

I agree the victim should be aloud to abort.

Hey everybody, the new girl thinks I'm a liberal.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
Well, all I know is that whether people are pro/anti abortion, the majority are very unlikely to be the ones suffering the consequences. It's all well and good to force other people to suffer the consequences of actions...the aborted babies in one case or society as a whole on the other.

As for me, there are times when murder is necessary. Is that unsavory- of course. But I also think that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. I'm willing to allow for the possibility that abortion is a necessary evil at times for that to happen.

I guess I don't see why you think the birth of an unwanted baby causes the rest of society to suffer. Please explain.

In the true sense of the word neccessary the only time it would be 'necessary' to abort would be if the mother's life is in danger.
The rest is simply speculation about what would happen if the baby is born.

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by fuzzykitten99
"As far as the rape goes, as well as incest, etc., cases like that are special."

This means that there would be a possibility of making a case for abortion in rape/incest. This is a touchy subject, because the victim is already traumatized and most are likely in no mental state to care for another human being that needs 24 hour care. Although I would want to urge to have the child, but give the child to a couple who want to adopt. This certainly is something that would warrant more thought. I would understand though, if the victim would want to abort.

So then you agree that there are cases where abortion should be legal?
If so, then how can these women have an abortion if it isn't made legal?

Can't make up your mind?

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by Bern80

I find the term Planned parenthood programs to be oxymoronic in nature as i know very few women that went there that planned to be parents. It should be call un-planned parenthood.

Secondly, the form of education I am referring to is exactley what you mention. As with most social programs the abortion issue can be linked to poor parenting.

The question "Why should they not have the option to choose what best suits there needs?" Is borderline appauling. Abortion is not an issue that effects at least one person. It is a decision that effects at least two. So, all of the quesitons you are asking should be asked in the best interest of the baby as well, unless inside the womb is not a life to you, which is another debate.

To me the only real need the mother should be considering is her need to live. Other than that the baby should not be aborted. Anything else is simply an inconvenience which is not a good enought reason for an abortion in my book.

It's in my opinion that abortion sould be made legal. You have the right to disagree and I respect your opinions.
Not sure of your gender, but maybe if you were or are a woman that has been around this issue you may have a different view on the issue.
Like I stated before, I don't condone using abortion for birth control reasons, but instead of always blaming the woman for the choice of having an abortion, maybe you should take a hard look at the male role in these cases.
How many men want the woman to have the abortion so they don't have the responsibility? How many men are also accountable for the fact that the pregnancy occurred?
IT TAKES TWO! Unless you know something I don't know.

Stop blaming the abortion on the women and start including the male influence in the choice.

As far as education is concerned, it's already there and it doesn't work. Therefore I don't see tha addition of more education adding to the responsibility of the person or people involved.

As far as someone choosing what is right for them being appauling, I find it appauling that you feel that you have the right to choose what is right for others. Who made you the dictator?

If we can have freedom of speech then we certainly should have the right to choose what happens to our bodies!

Sorry, but I disagree with you -

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Lizzy
It's in my opinion that abortion sould be made legal. You have the right to disagree and I respect your opinions.
Not sure of your gender, but maybe if you were or are a woman that has been around this issue you may have a different view on the issue.
Like I stated before, I don't condone using abortion for birth control reasons, but instead of always blaming the woman for the choice of having an abortion, maybe you should take a hard look at the male role in these cases.
How many men want the woman to have the abortion so they don't have the responsibility? How many men are also accountable for the fact that the pregnancy occurred?
IT TAKES TWO! Unless you know something I don't know.

Yes I am male, and I would not be making these assertions if I were not willing to stand by them. You are right, men need to start taking a lot more resonsibility for their actions. I think abortion should be much more of a male issue than it is. As you said it takes two, so why shouldn't both parties get a say in the abortion issue?

As far as someone choosing what is right for them being appauling, I find it appauling that you feel that you have the right to choose what is right for others. Who made you the dictator?

Again you aren't choosing what you think is right for one person. You are choosing what you think is right for 2 people. Have you taken that into consideration. If you think it is right to kill the baby, why?

If we can have freedom of speech then we certainly should have the right to choose what happens to our bodies!

Sorry, but I disagree with you -

This is the ultimate hypocritcal statement. You are depriving a body of the choice which you claim to be protecting. Do you not see that?

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
Yes I am male, and I would not be making these assertions if I were not willing to stand by them. You are right, men need to start taking a lot more resonsibility for their actions. I think abortion should be much more of a male issue than it is. As you said it takes two, so why shouldn't both parties get a say in the abortion issue?




Again you aren't choosing what you think is right for one person. You are choosing what you think is right for 2 people. Have you taken that into consideration. If you think it is right to kill the baby, why?



This is the ultimate hypocritcal statement. You are depriving a body of the choice which you claim to be protecting. Do you not see that?

I only have one question for you...what makes you more right to decide who lives/dies than the mother of the baby?

That makes no sense either. You believe in war and the death penalty but not abortion. Murder is murder. Sometimes is warranted, sometimes it's necessary for the greater good.

Sorry...can't have one without the other.

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by Bern80

Again you aren't choosing what you think is right for one person. You are choosing what you think is right for 2 people. Have you taken that into consideration. If you think it is right to kill the baby, why?

I don't consider it to be two people in the first trimester. Therefore it isn't considered to be a baby at this point. But like I've said, this is my opinion.

I do have a problem with aborting a child that has developed to a point where they can actually survive without life support. But these cases are few and far between.

As far as my hypocritical statement. It's not hypocritical if I don't feel that the fetus is a human being in the first trimester.

Case and point. It was discovered that I had a tubal pregnancy in my 2nd month of pregnancy. Obviously the fetus had to be removed. The doctor couldn't tell what sex the child was or much of anything else about it since it was too early to really call it a child.
As a result I don't feel the fetus to be a life at this point.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
I only have one question for you...what makes you more right to decide who lives/dies than the mother of the baby?

I don't understand this question. The way you have phrased the question would make it okay for a mother to abort her baby under any and all circumstances

That makes no sense either. You believe in war and the death penalty but not abortion. Murder is murder. Sometimes is warranted, sometimes it's necessary for the greater good.

Yes murder is murder. You seem to be confused about the definition of murder though. Murder is to deprive an innocent person of their life. The baby is innocent, you kill it, that's murder.

No body believes in war, only in the necessity for it. The death penalty is killing someone who is not innocent. I don't have a problem with that.

]

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by Lizzy
So then you agree that there are cases where abortion should be legal?
If so, then how can these women have an abortion if it isn't made legal?

Can't make up your mind?

If you had a daughter that was raped either by a stranger or relative, would you force her to give birth? Probably not. Especially if the girl is very underage.

I HAVE made up my mind. You must be too young to understand that there are extenuating circumstances in which the rule is not just cut & dry. I will use an example. Speeding is against the law, right? Though we all do it at some point, say someone is speeding down the freeway, but the reason that they are, is they are driving to the hospital because they are having a sort of medical emergency, and waiting for an ambulence may take too long. A cop pulls the person over for speeding, but then realizes that the speeding was for a reason, and allows the person to proceed, while actually escorting them to the hospital. Yes the person broke the law by speeding, but with good reason. The cop would be crucified in traffic court if he had just written the person a ticket, and went on his way. However, if the person were just wrecklessly speeding, a ticket (and maybe other punishment) would be justified.

My point is, the difference in a pregnancy caused by rape and a pregnancy caused by careless actions are 2 separate things.

Sex is what makes babies. It's not a secret. If you cannot handle having a child, either take the necessary precautions, abstain, or be prepared to own up to the consequences.

You can't 'abort' an STD, so most protect themselves against that...why not pregnancy?

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Lizzy
I don't consider it to be two people in the first trimester. Therefore it isn't considered to be a baby at this point. But like I've said, this is my opinion.

I do have a problem with aborting a child that has developed to a point where they can actually survive without life support. But these cases are few and far between.

As far as my hypocritical statement. It's not hypocritical if I don't feel that the fetus is a human being in the first trimester.

Case and point. It was discovered that I had a tubal pregnancy in my 2nd month of pregnancy. Obviously the fetus had to be removed. The doctor couldn't tell what sex the child was or much of anything else about it since it was too early to really call it a child.
As a result I don't feel the fetus to be a life at this point.

okay, we're getting somewhere. I would make a distinction b/t life and conciousness and where they start. To me life begins at inception. That's where a new life begins. That's a little vague i know, but that's the best way i can think of to say it. Who knows where consciousness begins. The first trimester thing is another thing i haven't really decided.

I don't fault you at all for your incident. Due to mu limited knowledge of female biology i can only guess that such a pregnancy would put the both of you in serious health trouble had it come to term.

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by fuzzykitten99
If you had a daughter that was raped either by a stranger or relative, would you force her to give birth? Probably not. Especially if the girl is very underage.

I HAVE made up my mind. You must be too young to understand that there are extenuating circumstances in which the rule is not just cut & dry. I will use an example. Speeding is against the law, right? Though we all do it at some point, say someone is speeding down the freeway, but the reason that they are, is they are driving to the hospital because they are having a sort of medical emergency, and waiting for an ambulence may take too long. A cop pulls the person over for speeding, but then realizes that the speeding was for a reason, and allows the person to proceed, while actually escorting them to the hospital. Yes the person broke the law by speeding, but with good reason. The cop would be crucified in traffic court if he had just written the person a ticket, and went on his way. However, if the person were just wrecklessly speeding, a ticket (and maybe other punishment) would be justified.

My point is, the difference in a pregnancy caused by rape and a pregnancy caused by careless actions are 2 separate things.

Sex is what makes babies. It's not a secret. If you cannot handle having a child, either take the necessary precautions, abstain, or be prepared to own up to the consequences.

You can't 'abort' an STD, so most protect themselves against that...why not pregnancy?

I must be too young to understand? I'm atleast 10 years older than you and have a lot more experience than you. You have got a lot to learn and maybe time will show you that.

And I've never said that the issue is cut and dry - read my posts again.
But you can't eliminate abortion and then think that in those extenuating circumstances that the doctors or law will say it's ok to perform the abortion. Think about it. Once you eliminate abortion, you eliminate anyone's choice whether it be for rape or otherwise.

And yes we all know that sex makes babies. The point is that not everyone takes those precautions even with the proper education. The education is already in place and it obviously isn't working too well.
Also if you look at the rate of STD has it really gone down that much that it's still not occurring?
I'll send the welfare bills and extra taxes your way to provide for all those that children that the parents can't afford to care for since they can't even care for themselves.

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by Bern80
okay, we're getting somewhere. I would make a distinction b/t life and conciousness and where they start. To me life begins at inception. That's where a new life begins. That's a little vague i know, but that's the best way i can think of to say it. Who knows where consciousness begins. The first trimester thing is another thing i haven't really decided.

I don't fault you at all for your incident. Due to mu limited knowledge of female biology i can only guess that such a pregnancy would put the both of you in serious health trouble had it come to term.

Yes we are and I understand your view and respect it as well.

And yes there would have been health issues. Quite honestly the child would never have formed.
But I am happy to say that I now have a great little 6 year old Girl going on 13 (God Help Me!).

Lets agree to disagree on various points.

My experience has just given me a little light into what I feel is a the true start of life and what isn't.

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by Lizzy
I must be too young to understand? I'm atleast 10 years older than you and have a lot more experience than you. You have got a lot to learn and maybe time will show you that.

And I've never said that the issue is cut and dry - read my posts again.
But you can't eliminate abortion and then think that in those extenuating circumstances that the doctors or law will say it's ok to perform the abortion. Think about it. Once you eliminate abortion, you eliminate anyone's choice whether it be for rape or otherwise.

And yes we all know that sex makes babies. The point is that not everyone takes those precautions even with the proper education. The education is already in place and it obviously isn't working too well.
Also if you look at the rate of STD has it really gone down that much that it's still not occurring?
I'll send the welfare bills and extra taxes your way to provide for all those that children that the parents can't afford to care for since they can't even care for themselves.

Older doesn't mean wiser. Your original post sounded like my 13 year old sister wrote it.

You say that the education system is not working that well? Instead of COMPLAINING about it, why don't you advocate BETTER education, and maybe TEACH IT, rather than advocate abortion? This is why I left the lefties. They would say "Oh, we need better education on x or y issue." But then you never hear any actual ideas. All I hear from you is that people who can't afford kids go on welfare. My mom was 16, and dropprd out of HS, and could not 'afford' me at the time, but she got herself a JOB...that's right, a JOB. She refused to give in to government handouts. She worked all 9 months, because she is hard working. My dad worked 2 jobs when she had me, so she could stay home with me.

Not everyone who get pregnant by accident has to go on welfare, even if they can't afford a child at the time. There is a whole 9-10 months to get everything inorder. If they don't want to be parents, or truly cannot handle it, adoption is another alternative. You ASSUME that every unwanted pregnancy either ends up in abortion or the parents end up on welfare.

And don't tell me the job market is not that great. That's a lie. If it is not that great, tell me why I got 2 job offers in the last month companies practically BEGGING me to come work for them, and I don't even have an education past high school? I basically have a choice between 2 career options that are waiting for me after we close on our house next month.

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by fuzzykitten99
Older doesn't mean wiser. Your original post sounded like my 13 year old sister wrote it.

You say that the education system is not working that well? Instead of COMPLAINING about it, why don't you advocate BETTER education, and maybe TEACH IT, rather than advocate abortion? This is why I left the lefties. They would say "Oh, we need better education on x or y issue." But then you never hear any actual ideas. All I hear from you is that people who can't afford kids go on welfare. My mom was 16, and dropprd out of HS, and could not 'afford' me at the time, but she got herself a JOB...that's right, a JOB. She refused to give in to government handouts. She worked all 9 months, because she is hard working. My dad worked 2 jobs when she had me, so she could stay home with me.

Not everyone who get pregnant by accident has to go on welfare, even if they can't afford a child at the time. There is a whole 9-10 months to get everything inorder. If they don't want to be parents, or truly cannot handle it, adoption is another alternative. You ASSUME that every unwanted pregnancy either ends up in abortion or the parents end up on welfare.

And don't tell me the job market is not that great. That's a lie. If it is not that great, tell me why I got 2 job offers in the last month companies practically BEGGING me to come work for them, and I don't even have an education past high school? I basically have a choice between 2 career options that are waiting for me after we close on our house next month.

Being 23 doesn't make you the wiser either. I just means that you have a lot of your life ahead of you and there may be incidences that will change your point of view.
Being older means being more experienced.
Tell me where I stated that everyone that gets pregnant goes on welfare or has an abortion! I didn't! As I said, a majority do, NOT EVERYONE. You apparently only read what you want to read!
And quite honestly everyone has the right to their opinion including you. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean that I am wrong. I just means that this is my opinion. Or weren't you taught about what an opinion was in highschool either?
I wonder why if there are so many jobs available that there are so many people out of work?
I guess all the companies that are buying each other up and downsizing are looking to hire more employees.? Funny because that is why so many are out of work.

As stated, we all have our own opinions and you should learn to respect the opinions of others. Yours isn't the only one.

And by the way, comparing abortions to traffic tickets?
Find something better next time.

 

[Big D]

Cool, it's a chick fight!

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Lizzy
Being older means being more experienced.

Not necessarily

Tell me where I stated that everyone that gets pregnant goes on welfare or has an abortion! I didn't! As I said, a majority do, NOT EVERYONE.

I would like to see proof of that.

Just because I don't agree doesn't mean that I am wrong.

If you don't have facts, you are.

I wonder why if there are so many jobs available that there are so many people out of work?

How about laziness when they can start their own businesses instead of always expecting someone to give them something.

I guess all the companies that are buying each other up and downsizing are looking to hire more employees.? Funny because that is why so many are out of work.

Again, see above.

And by the way, comparing abortions to traffic tickets?
Find something better next time.

How about an excuse to murder to escape responsibility and the reality of sanctity of life to appease one's own ego or laziness?

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
I don't understand this question. The way you have phrased the question would make it okay for a mother to abort her baby under any and all circumstances


Yes murder is murder. You seem to be confused about the definition of murder though. Murder is to deprive an innocent person of their life. The baby is innocent, you kill it, that's murder.

No body believes in war, only in the necessity for it. The death penalty is killing someone who is not innocent. I don't have a problem with that.

]

War is not a necessity. It's a choice people make. A choice that can and, in every case of which I am aware, does result in loss of innocent lives. Abortion is not a necessity. It's a choice that people make. It can and does result in a loss of life.

Both, in my estimation, are murder. Murder is not defined as the taking of an innocent life it's defined as purposeful taking of life.

I just don't understand how one can believe in the former without believing in the latter.