Women protest Bush on the abortion Bill...

[NewGuy]

That is what happens when you take a stand.

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by insein
wow is it me or does every thread end up in a flame fest involving OCA, RWA, NewGuy and/or Big D lately?

Insein I was having a discussion on abortion without flames and RWA our resident flamer jumped in and decided to rile things up. Thats the usual pattern, I just take a stand and defend myself is all.

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by Bern80
Some reasonable pts there. I would be curious to know however, what percentage of abortions performed are due to health complications of the mother. My guess, and it is purely a guess, is that it is a small percentage.

The pt I always come back is that I am all for women making there own decisions. The fact is though they did make a decsion to have sex. If it results in an unwanted pregnancy that would be a poor decision. If you do not have consequences that hold someone accountable for said decision, by simple logic, that person is more likely to make poor decisions again in the future.

Speaking of points rarely hit on, you mention that women will get abortion anyway. This is not the problem and in many cases people miss the big picture. To me the best thing to do would be to reduct the number of people that would get abortion anyway through education. Why not start pushing that instead of pushing pro-choice?

In response, you are right that the percentage of abortions done for health, rape and other medical reasons are small, but why should they be held to the pro choice decision? Why should they not have the option to choose what best suites their needs?

The unwanted pregnancies are not coming from those women who are responsible to begin with. I can probably safely say that those women who do end up pregnant by accident even though practicing safe sex or otherwise will most likely opt to keep their child. They have not made a poor decision and in general don't.

My question for you is how would you plan to educate these people? There are already numerous planned parenthood, welfare and school programs in place to educate them. I don't see the problem being education, but the lack of responsibility that comes from parents or those that have grown up with no responsibility already in place.

I don't condone abortion for birth control, but I do for those that need it and for the sake of future deaths due to the lack of the availability of the service.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by Lizzy
In response, you are right that the percentage of abortions done for health, rape and other medical reasons are small, but why should they be held to the pro choice decision? Why should they not have the option to choose what best suites their needs?

The unwanted pregnancies are not coming from those women who are responsible to begin with. I can probably safely say that those women who do end up pregnant by accident even though practicing safe sex or otherwise will most likely opt to keep their child. They have not made a poor decision and in general don't.

My question for you is how would you plan to educate these people? There are already numerous planned parenthood, welfare and school programs in place to educate them. I don't see the problem being education, but the lack of responsibility that comes from parents or those that have grown up with no responsibility already in place.

I don't condone abortion for birth control, but I do for those that need it and for the sake of future deaths due to the lack of the availability of the service.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Lizzy
In response, you are right that the percentage of abortions done for health, rape and other medical reasons are small, but why should they be held to the pro choice decision? Why should they not have the option to choose what best suites their needs?

The unwanted pregnancies are not coming from those women who are responsible to begin with. I can probably safely say that those women who do end up pregnant by accident even though practicing safe sex or otherwise will most likely opt to keep their child. They have not made a poor decision and in general don't.

My question for you is how would you plan to educate these people? There are already numerous planned parenthood, welfare and school programs in place to educate them. I don't see the problem being education, but the lack of responsibility that comes from parents or those that have grown up with no responsibility already in place.

I don't condone abortion for birth control, but I do for those that need it and for the sake of future deaths due to the lack of the availability of the service.

First: Joz, what's the clap for?

I find the term Planned parenthood programs to be oxymoronic in nature as i know very few women that went there that planned to be parents. It should be call un-planned parenthood.

Secondly, the form of education I am referring to is exactley what you mention. As with most social programs the abortion issue can be linked to poor parenting.

The question "Why should they not have the option to choose what best suits there needs?" Is borderline appauling. Abortion is not an issue that effects at least one person. It is a decision that effects at least two. So, all of the quesitons you are asking should be asked in the best interest of the baby as well, unless inside the womb is not a life to you, which is another debate.

To me the only real need the mother should be considering is her need to live. Other than that the baby should not be aborted. Anything else is simply an inconvenience which is not a good enought reason for an abortion in my book.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
First: Joz, what's the clap for?

I find the term Planned parenthood programs to be oxymoronic in nature as i know very few women that went there that planned to be parents. It should be call un-planned parenthood.

Secondly, the form of education I am referring to is exactley what you mention. As with most social programs the abortion issue can be linked to poor parenting.

The question "Why should they not have the option to choose what best suits there needs?" Is borderline appauling. Abortion is not an issue that effects at least one person. It is a decision that effects at least two. So, all of the quesitons you are asking should be asked in the best interest of the baby as well, unless inside the womb is not a life to you, which is another debate.

To me the only real need the mother should be considering is her need to live. Other than that the baby should not be aborted. Anything else is simply an inconvenience which is not a good enought reason for an abortion in my book.

Without regard for whether I am for or against abortion, please answer some questions:

what is supposed to be done with the unwanted baby? Who is to care for it? Who is to pay for it? Who will protect it when it's beaten senseless because the parents never wanted it and are ill-equipped to raise it?

Are you suggesting that society must be made to suffer due to someone's lack of planning?

What of women who are raped? Why should they bear the burden - literally, mind you - of some man's need for power and dominance?

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
what is supposed to be done with the unwanted baby? Who is to care for it? Who is to pay for it? Who will protect it when it's beaten senseless because the parents never wanted it and are ill-equipped to raise it?

So the best solution is just to kill it, huh?
For the sake of argument: 1) I expect the mother and father to take responsibilty or give it up for adoption. 2) With that I expect the pro-life crowd to start seriously considering adopting instead of procreating. Your fourth question is off the deep end.

Are you suggesting that society must be made to suffer due to someone's lack of planning?

I guess i don't understand your quesiton. How does society suffer when an unwanted child is born? Do mean the money we pay in taxes to support them? I guess i don't think of that as suffering.

What of women who are raped? Why should they bear the burden - literally, mind you - of some man's need for power and dominance?

to be honest i haven't made up my mind on rape.

I will reiterate that if we don't impose harsh consequences for making poor decisions, people and society will continue to make poor decisions.

 

[NewGuy]

Rape is simple.

Killing a baby is NOT going to fix the crime. Carrying it out to delivery and then giving up for adoption is proper.

Adding murder to a person's mental state as a victim of rape does nothing more positive to the situation.

It isn't the baby's fault.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by Bern80

to be honest i haven't made up my mind on rape.

If you can't make up your mind with this issue, you clearly have know common sence.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Rape is simple.

Killing a baby is NOT going to fix the crime. Carrying it out to delivery and then giving up for adoption is proper.

Adding murder to a person's mental state as a victim of rape does nothing more positive to the situation.

It isn't the baby's fault.

You are clearly a Dumbass.

Normally I like to read your comments a laugh to myself and think what a Dumbass you are, but this time I had to tell you.

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by Moi
Without regard for whether I am for or against abortion, please answer some questions:

what is supposed to be done with the unwanted baby? Who is to care for it? Who is to pay for it? Who will protect it when it's beaten senseless because the parents never wanted it and are ill-equipped to raise it?

Are you suggesting that society must be made to suffer due to someone's lack of planning?

What of women who are raped? Why should they bear the burden - literally, mind you - of some man's need for power and dominance?

This is the problem with pro-choicers...they assume too much and always assume the worst. You just assume that an unwanted pregnancy is going to result in the child being beaten, not cared for, etc. You assume that the parents are poor people and they cannot afford to care for a child. You think that just because the pregnancy is unwanted, that someone else has to pay for it. You assume that even if the pregnancy is unplanned, the woman cannot get a job and take responsibility for her actions. This is the problem that I had with the Liberals even when I WAS one.

There ARE alternatives to abortion. A well known one, most I am sure have heard is ADOPTION. If the parents are not able to care for the child, let the child be adopted by people who want to care for a baby.

My mother could have aborted me when she got pregnant with me at 16. This was in 1980. She decided that she was old enough to take responsibility and she got a full time job while she was prego, saved up the money to live on after I was born, and even so, during that time, my bio-father did not want anything to do with me, so my dad-father adopted me by putting his name on my birth certificate. He worked 2 jobs to give us a good life. They never got married, but at least lived together to give me a home with a mother & father.

I was never beaten, starved, or unloved. I had food & shelter & clothing. My parents split when I was 3, and I did live with my grandma for a while, during which my mother went to nursing school full time, but I saw her on the weekends. Same with my dad.

I am now 23, happily married with an 8m.o. son.

As far as the rape goes, as well as incest, etc., cases like that are special. But most unwanted pregnancies are at fault in both partners failing to prevent it at any time. There are clinics(planned parenthood is most well known) that provide little to no cost birth control-nearly all types, and drugstores and convenience stores are open early to late. If you are not mature enough to go buy condoms, or ANY birth control, you are probably not mature enough to have sex.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Big D
You are clearly a Dumbass.

:cof:



You proved yourself the white supremecist there, didn'tcha?

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by fuzzykitten99

As far as the rape goes, as well as incest, etc., cases like that are special. But most unwanted pregnancies are at fault in both partners failing to prevent it at any time. There are clinics(planned parenthood is most well known) that provide little to no cost birth control-nearly all types, and drugstores and convenience stores are open early to late. If you are not mature enough to go buy condoms, or ANY birth control, you are probably not mature enough to have sex.

Ya, If a 13 year old girl gets raped and becomes pregnate, it's her fault for not having birth control.

Nice.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Big D
If you can't make up your mind with this issue, you clearly have know common sence.

You are clearly a dumbass

I can only assume by these 2 responses that you are for abortion in cases of rape. So enlighten me Big D, what, pre tell, should my common senSe be telling me?

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by Bern80
I can only assume by these 2 responses that you are for abortion in cases of rape. So enlighten me Big D, what, pre tell, should my common senSe be telling me?

This girl has already been forced against her will to have sex, now you want to force her to have a baby from this attack?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Big D
This girl has already been forced against her will to have sex, now you want to force her to have a baby from this attack?

If the girl and rapist are white, what is your answer, Big D?

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
So the best solution is just to kill it, huh?
For the sake of argument: 1) I expect the mother and father to take responsibilty or give it up for adoption. 2) With that I expect the pro-life crowd to start seriously considering adopting instead of procreating. Your fourth question is off the deep end.


I guess i don't understand your quesiton. How does society suffer when an unwanted child is born? Do mean the money we pay in taxes to support them? I guess i don't think of that as suffering.



to be honest i haven't made up my mind on rape.

I will reiterate that if we don't impose harsh consequences for making poor decisions, people and society will continue to make poor decisions.

As for the question about abuse, please start looking at the statistics of unwanted babies. There is clear evidence that those who are born to ill-equipped parents, parents that don't want them, drug addicts, etc. are quite likely to be abused. Abuse begets abuse. Furthermore, it is not as simple as saying that those who can get pregnant and do should just "step up" and be good parents. History clearly indicates that they don't.

And society suffers. Children who are abused, abandoned, unwanted and ill-cared for tend to grow up to be abusers- of women, of their own children, of other people's children. That's a pretty real cost so it's not just about the money. (Although I am not sure why money is such an invalid argument.) Others become drug addicted, criminals, etc. Again, that's a cost to society. Not just in money but in lives and suffering.

The fact that you haven't thought of what happens in the case of rape is, I believe, "off the deep end".

I certainly agree that unless actions have consequences, whether good or bad, there is little effect on behavior. The point I disagree with is that abortion is as simple as stating "take care of the kid" or "have an abortion". There are many things to consider when deciding who should suffer what consequences. So far neither side of this argument has convinced me that they think of the other or society as a whole. All I see are people making pronouncements of a concrete nature. Life in general is so rarely concrete.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Rape is simple.

Killing a baby is NOT going to fix the crime. Carrying it out to delivery and then giving up for adoption is proper.

Adding murder to a person's mental state as a victim of rape does nothing more positive to the situation.

It isn't the baby's fault.

Rape IS simple. The asshole shouldnt be allowed to procreate and make another little asshole.

A woman should be allowed to abort ONLY when they are in danger of dieing themselves or if they are raped.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by fuzzykitten99
This is the problem with pro-choicers...they assume too much and always assume the worst. You just assume that an unwanted pregnancy is going to result in the child being beaten, not cared for, etc. You assume that the parents are poor people and they cannot afford to care for a child. You think that just because the pregnancy is unwanted, that someone else has to pay for it. You assume that even if the pregnancy is unplanned, the woman cannot get a job and take responsibility for her actions. This is the problem that I had with the Liberals even when I WAS one.

There ARE alternatives to abortion. A well known one, most I am sure have heard is ADOPTION. If the parents are not able to care for the child, let the child be adopted by people who want to care for a baby.

My mother could have aborted me when she got pregnant with me at 16. This was in 1980. She decided that she was old enough to take responsibility and she got a full time job while she was prego, saved up the money to live on after I was born, and even so, during that time, my bio-father did not want anything to do with me, so my dad-father adopted me by putting his name on my birth certificate. He worked 2 jobs to give us a good life. They never got married, but at least lived together to give me a home with a mother & father.

I was never beaten, starved, or unloved. I had food & shelter & clothing. My parents split when I was 3, and I did live with my grandma for a while, during which my mother went to nursing school full time, but I saw her on the weekends. Same with my dad.

I am now 23, happily married with an 8m.o. son.

As far as the rape goes, as well as incest, etc., cases like that are special. But most unwanted pregnancies are at fault in both partners failing to prevent it at any time. There are clinics(planned parenthood is most well known) that provide little to no cost birth control-nearly all types, and drugstores and convenience stores are open early to late. If you are not mature enough to go buy condoms, or ANY birth control, you are probably not mature enough to have sex.

For what it's worth, I've not made my position known whether I am pro choice or pro life. My questions were not to defend or attack any particular side. Unfortunately I don't see a lot of debate on this issue or willingness to see the other side. People just seem to make pronouncements...see my post above.

Nor do I assume that all unwanted pregnancies are going to result in abused children. Clearly your mother's choice had more to do with your resulting upbringing than the legality of abortion.

Yet the fact remains that the statistics show a pattern. That pattern is not so pretty nor easily tied up with the bow of "just be a good parent".

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by NewGuy
If the girl and rapist are white, what is your answer, Big D?

Ask the girl that was raped, for her answer.