Women protest Bush on the abortion Bill...

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by Big D
Cool, it's a chick fight!

Real funny!

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
I just don't understand how one can believe in the former without believing in the latter.

I told you the distinction. One is innocent the other is not.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
I told you the distinction. One is innocent the other is not.

Clever use of delusion. War is not only waged on the "guilty". Innocents die every day. When our president declared war, please tell me what sin or crime Mr. Tillman, late of the Arizona Cardinals, committed???

Please tell me what sin the children in Iraq committed?

 

[Lizzy]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Not necessarily

Agreed! But this is mainly due to the fact that they spend their lives living in bubbles. Unable to see what's going on in the rest of the world and how it affects other's lives.

Originally posted by NewGuy
I would like to see proof of that.

And I would like to see the proof that it doesn't.

Originally posted by NewGuy
If you don't have facts, you are.

Who's is to say who is right or wrong when it's just opinions.

Originally posted by NewGuy
How about laziness when they can start their own businesses instead of always expecting someone to give them something.

Who in their right mind would start a business in a slow economy?
And you are correct in the fact that it is laziness! Mainly by those that are uneducated and unable to support their families. Those that continue to have children and allow others to support them instead of taking care of their families in the responsible manner they should!
As far as companies downsizing and people losing their jobs. It's not because they don't want to work, it's because they can't find a job. Not because they are lazy. It's due to their being fewer jobs available. We aren't talking about working at 7-11 or Mc Donalds.Most of these people that lose their jobs due to downsizing are too embarassed to go to unemploment and look to support their families in as many ways as they can, due to their pride.

Originally posted by NewGuy
How about an excuse to murder to escape responsibility and the reality of sanctity of life to appease one's own ego or laziness?

Abortion is something that should be decided by the person it is affecting and not by anyone other than that person!
When you start dictating what a person can and cannot do, especially when it is really none of your business, I find it to be wrong.
Quite honestly, I don't want anyone telling me what to do with my body. And I don't think you would want anyone telling you what to do with yours!
Maybe someone should decide that all men should get their balls cut off. Then there wouldn't be an abortion issue.
Do you want someone to make that decision for you, totally unlikely as it may be, but just a point.
It's not for you or anyone else to decide what someone else should do, it's for them!

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
Clever use of delusion. War is not only waged on the "guilty". Innocents die every day.

Are you accusing our soldiers of INTENTIONALLY killing innocent people? Yes innocent people die in wars. You can think what you want but I doubt our troops are over there with specific intent, if any, of killing innocent people. As for any other fatalities, if they're pointing a gun they're not innocent.

When our president declared war, please tell me what sin or crime Mr. Tillman, late of the Arizona Cardinals, committed???

Are you accussing the President of killing Mr. Tillman cause I think he (Tillman) would disagree with you.

Please tell me what sin the children in Iraq committed?

None of course, but again you are assumin we are killing them intentionally, but if this is the game you want to play, what sin did the baby commit?

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
Are you accusing our soldiers of INTENTIONALLY killing innocent people? Yes innocent people die in wars. You can think what you want but I doubt our troops are over there with specific intent, if any, of killing innocent people. As for any other fatalities, if they're pointing a gun they're not innocent.
Are you accussing the President of killing Mr. Tillman cause I think he (Tillman) would disagree with you.



None of course, but again you are assumin we are killing them intentionally, but if this is the game you want to play, what sin did the baby commit?

No I am not suggesting that our troops have purposefully killed any innocents. Nor am I suggesting that the president killed Tillman. However, like it or not, innocent people die in wars. In fact, they die every day in many ways.

Sometimes, in my belief, death is a necessary for the greater good of society. That means that I support killing given a compelling reason. You can disagree that anyone seeking abortion has a compelling reason but I bet there are people in this country for whom we had none for the war in Iraq. That opinion doesn't make you right nor them wrong.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Lizzy
Who in their right mind would start a business in a slow economy?

I would, have, and did well. SEVERAL times so far.

As far as companies downsizing and people losing their jobs. It's not because they don't want to work, it's because they can't find a job. Not because they are lazy. It's due to their being fewer jobs available. We aren't talking about working at 7-11 or Mc Donalds.Most of these people that lose their jobs due to downsizing are too embarassed to go to unemploment and look to support their families in as many ways as they can, due to their pride.

Again, it is an excuse. People can start their own business. I am one who has done it, and I know of many more.

Abortion is something that should be decided by the person it is affecting and not by anyone other than that person!
When you start dictating what a person can and cannot do, especially when it is really none of your business, I find it to be wrong.
Quite honestly, I don't want anyone telling me what to do with my body. And I don't think you would want anyone telling you what to do with yours!
Maybe someone should decide that all men should get their balls cut off. Then there wouldn't be an abortion issue.
Do you want someone to make that decision for you, totally unlikely as it may be, but just a point.
It's not for you or anyone else to decide what someone else should do, it's for them!

You didn't address the root of the issue. I will quote it for you again:

How about an excuse to murder to escape responsibility and the reality of sanctity of life to appease one's own ego or laziness?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
NewGuy - I dont believe that proof of burden is real neccasary when it comes wisdom & giving birth! It is for the most part experience that comes with age and not the opposite!

I think experience CAN come with age, but it doesn't automatically get HANDED to a person with age. We should look at the EXPERIENCED directly, not the aged.

I should have made that clearer.

Thanks.

 

[fuzzykitten99]

Originally posted by Lizzy

And by the way, comparing abortions to traffic tickets?
Find something better next time.

Obviously you didn't comprehend what i typed. The analogy is that there ARE EXCEPTIONS to the law. You stated that if you make abortion illegal, it is illegal for EVERYONE no matter what.

you wrote this in a previous post:
So then you agree that there are cases where abortion should be legal?
If so, then how can these women have an abortion if it isn't made legal?

Why i used the speeding thing as the analogy is that it is against the law to speed, but certain circumstances that law can be broken without repercussion as it is a certain case. This can be applied to abortion.

also...thanks NewGuy for backing me up on the jobs thing. It's a person's own fault that their pride is in the way of taking any job possible to make ends meet. I can't stand people who think that just because they have a college education, they are too good to take a janitor job, or any job that is not in their normal field. That is just plain lazy.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by fuzzykitten99
also...thanks NewGuy for backing me up on the jobs thing. It's a person's own fault that their pride is in the way of taking any job possible to make ends meet. I can't stand people who think that just because they have a college education, they are too good to take a janitor job, or any job that is not in their normal field. That is just plain lazy.

No problem. I have seen people humble themselves quite extensively to get by. I have known and been a peson who has had to create multiple incomes myself with only one job.

It CAN be done....and as they say, "Necessity is the mother of invention".

-Of course, thats when laziness meant starvation, too.

 

[fuzzykitten99]

what's really funny, is that lizzy criticized you, asking why start a business in an economy like this...it's you starting a business that creates an income for yourself, and maybe even another person. Small business start up is what CREATES jobs.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Lizzy may be an old broad, but it seems like she hasn't learned very much, not anything really.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
Sometimes, in my belief, death is a necessary for the greater good of society. That means that I support killing given a compelling reason. You can disagree that anyone seeking abortion has a compelling reason but I bet there are people in this country for whom we had none for the war in Iraq. That opinion doesn't make you right nor them wrong.

okay, i have a hard time swallowing the argument that aborting a baby somehow improves the lives of an entire society.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
okay, i have a hard time swallowing the argument that aborting a baby somehow improves the lives of an entire society.

Entirely your right. I'm not out to convince you and I don't care what you think, really. The fact remains that your opinions don't make abortion unethical or illegal.

And, even more relevant is the fact that you can live your life without having to decide if abortion is the right or wrong decision for you. You will never be in a position to have one or not.

Ain't life grand?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
RWA - Guess you didn't know that Lizzy is my wife, or perhaps you did and are just looking to get at me more! Really dont like me huh?

:shocked:

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
Entirely your right. I'm not out to convince you and I don't care what you think, really. The fact remains that your opinions don't make abortion unethical or illegal.

And, even more relevant is the fact that you can live your life without having to decide if abortion is the right or wrong decision for you. You will never be in a position to have one or not.

Ain't life grand?

How do construe what you said as a statement of fact. isn't that also "just your opinion?"

Another weird respons. If you didn't care what people think you wouldn't participate in this board. Hell you wouldn't do a lot of things. You wouldn't vote cause what do care about somone's opinion on how to run the country? If you don't care what's the point of you posting here? Sorry for getting irked but this "who am i to say" crap is B as in B, S as in S. How do you have a society where no one decides what is right?

Further, yes everyone has opinions some people right opinoins some people have wrong ones. this "but it's only my opinion" is also crap. Are you in the habit of maintaining opionions that you know are wrong? How can you tell me that killing an innocent life under any circumstances isn't wrong and unethical.

I mean what is ethics to you? Is it some twisted notion that the birth of some unwanted baby is going sone how drag down an entire society and thus should be aborted?

 

[NewGuy]

I have to say that if my opinions do not make abortion illegal or unethical because I can't have one, that is as valid as saying my sitting on a jury and determining legality or innocence/guilt of a murder situation would be irrelevant too.

The issue is not that only women have the right or capacity, it is that the society as a whole needs the system of law in place where individual ETHICS AND MORALS fail. In this case, when murder is unconstitutional then abortion (when science has proven the baby "alive" at less than 7 weeks) is simply ILLEGAL.

It is murder.

I have as much right to enforce that as any woman.

It would be selfish to think society could NOT equally have this responsibility and it promotes moral relativism which IS the foundation of the democratic and socialist movements in America.

When you cannot have moral and ethical absolutes, you have lost your ability to keep your liberty.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Bern80
How do construe what you said as a statement of fact. isn't that also "just your opinion?"

Another weird response. If you didn't care what people think you wouldn't participate in this board. Hell you wouldn't do a lot of things. You wouldn't vote cause what do care about Simone's opinion on how to run the country? If you don't care what's the point of you posting here? Sorry for getting irked but this "who am i to say" crap is B as in B, S as in S. How do you have a society where no one decides what is right?

Further, yes everyone has opinions some people right opinions some people have wrong ones. this "but it's only my opinion" is also crap. Are you in the habit of maintaining opinions that you know are wrong? How can you tell me that killing an innocent life under any circumstances isn't wrong and unethical.

I mean what is ethics to you? Is it some twisted notion that the birth of some unwanted baby is going sone how drag down an entire society and thus should be aborted?

Oh for shit sake. You are completely ignorant aren't you? You cannot even respect someone else's right to make their own decisions and their opinions about why.

The majority of this country decides what's right. We do so by electing leaders who fulfill our agendas. It' pretty clear that you want to decide for everyone else what's right and wrong. Well, try. If you don't believe in abortion, don't impregnate a woman. If you don't believe in abortion, teach that to your children. If you don't believe in abortion, donate tons of money to adoption agencies.

I don't care what you think about society suffering because, quite frankly, it's irrelevant and you are a hypocrite.

I understand that you believe that no one has the right to a better life by taking one. On that note, you'd have us make a law that said that because innocent people die in war, the united states was no longer allowed to either start one or defend itself from one? Better we subjugate ourselves to our enemies than kill an innocent.

Absurd.

As far as ethics go, I'll test mine against yours any day. The fact remains that you are hypocritical in your beliefs and I am not - I beleive that death is sometimes necessary and acceptable.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Moi
Oh for shit sake. You are completely ignorant aren't you? You cannot even respect someone else's right to make their own decisions and their opinions about why.

That's all well and good, but in the case of abortion you are depriveing someone of the very choice, which you claim to be defending, quite the paradox. Would you not agree that there are certain decisions should not be allowed to be made?

The majority of this country decides what's right. We do so by electing leaders who fulfill our agendas. It' pretty clear that you want to decide for everyone else what's right and wrong. Well, try. If you don't believe in abortion, don't impregnate a woman. If you don't believe in abortion, teach that to your children. If you don't believe in abortion, donate tons of money to adoption agencies.

How is electing someone who essentially decides what is right and wrong different from me deciding what is right and wrong. The President and any elected leader is simply an extension of that.

I don't care what you think about society suffering because, quite frankly, it's irrelevant and you are a hypocrite.

Answer the question, please. How does aborting a child benefit an entire society? You made this argument, you defend it.

And how am I a hypocrit?

I understand that you believe that no one has the right to a better life by taking one.

Then you don't understand. I never said the above. I said killing innocents is wrong. To get back to your war analogy. I think you would agree that if a soldier takes the life of an innocent Iraqi his life has not improved.

[B[On that note, you'd have us make a law that said that because innocent people die in war, the united states was no longer allowed to either start one or defend itself from one? Better we subjugate ourselves to our enemies than kill an innocent.[/B]

No I would not, War and abortion aren't really analogous in any way. A war is where two sides fight each other and innocents will die. In aboriton an innocent dies, yet there is no war.

As far as ethics go, I'll test mine against yours any day. The fact remains that you are hypocritical in your beliefs and I am not - I beleive that death is sometimes necessary and acceptable.

I agree that it is neccessary on occasion. I do not agree that, unless the health of the mother is at stake, that abortion is neccessary. I believe this because one must assume an awful lot about what will become of that child after it is born.

 

[Lizzy]

Can we just leave it at we all have our own opinions!

It's not right to try and force your opinion onto someone else, just make your points known.

This is what the debate is about, voicing your opinions.

Being adult and grown up is being able to listen to someone else's viewpoints and then commenting.

When you start name calling you are placing yourself into a realm where no one wants to hear what you have to say anyway!
Not worth the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!