Women having to work

[Mr. Shaman]

for the record: when we go to rug rat parties, our kids are far better behaved than the day care kids.

Yeah.....I'm sure that has a lot-to-do with how valued your kids feel.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Only because they picked a bad daycare. That is a TOUGH decision to make and most people do not do the proper research before deciding on a daycare. Then again, from the other standpoint, most parents are unable to discipline their children in this day and age or even deal with their children...

well, maybe. but i think the parents have a lot to do with things, too. some people feel guilty b/c their kids are in daycare, so let them do whatever they want when they're home.
we also read together every morning and every night before he went to sleep. and he was taken everyplace with us from the time he was little, so had to learn to behave.

Gasp ! You mean you were a Parent ? Thats unheard of.

 

[St.Blues]

Only because they picked a bad daycare. That is a TOUGH decision to make and most people do not do the proper research before deciding on a daycare. Then again, from the other standpoint, most parents are unable to discipline their children in this day and age or even deal with their children...

well, maybe. but i think the parents have a lot to do with things, too. some people feel guilty b/c their kids are in daycare, so let them do whatever they want when they're home.
we also read together every morning and every night before he went to sleep. and he was taken everyplace with us from the time he was little, so had to learn to behave.

jillian, I think spending time with them and especially reading to them as you have done is very important. I also believe moral values are learned early on.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I've noticed in some of the other XXXXX many women are not happy about having to work and have others look after and potentially influence there child upbringing at the day care centers. Many do not want to be forced to work along with there husband. Many want be home taking care of the household and family matters and would like to have more than one child but cannot afford it. Seems like the 70's woman's lib movement has finally been seen for what it has caused.

It has less to do with the cost of living and more to do with people living beyond their means.

Yeah....Thank Gawd the grocery-stores are putting impulse-purchases, like food, more out-of-reach; price-wise.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Pretty soon the Children will be forced to work to help pay the Bills. 10 & 11yr olds will be out working to help support the Family. We are definitely going backwards in this Country. Women working is more about today's economics than anything else. Wages are going down while the cost of living is skyrocketing. Better get those kids out there working. Bleak times are ahead for this Nation.

You forgot to say.....

"YA' KNOW WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN,
DON'T YOU??!!!"

 

[Iridescence]

Women working alongside of men regardless of how modern and 'up-to-date' fashionable it seems to be and how it is supposedly so required by current living expenses puts many individuals in situations that are not always for the best. Marriages are failing at a faster and higher rate than ever. Why? Um, well, other than lack of self-control and self-discipline? 'We' put ourselves 'out there'. And not only 'out there' to earn money that potentially establishes our independence from the very ones that best enhance our lives but also 'out there' to make statements and fulfill prophesies that are anything BUT for the ultimate good of 'the people'. Focus has sorely become lost in mothers toward our children and it is because of the distraction, the allowance to work.

I grew up as tomboy as could be. I worked in rival to some of the most redneck men I have yet to meet but when I got married I used those skills to best serve our family as a united front. It isn't demeaning for women to have abilities and learn trades, yet it is also not demeaning for women to choose to stay home while their children are young and in need of a mother's guidance.

 

[Iridescence]

I think it is definently better for the kids to be at home with the mother while they are school age, if you can afford it, daycare costs an arm and a leg anyways.

It is more a matter of preference than it is a matter of priorities.
There are many virtues to day care...the least being good for developing social skills.
There is exposure to other ways of life.
Other ideas.
independence is a big one...learning to spend time without mom around.

Day care is an extension of school...and does not take that much away from quality time with mom and dad......

Others like the virtues that come with longer time with mom and dad.

It is a matter of preference.....i think it is an insult to imply that it is a matter of priorities...thus implying that those that opt for child care dont have their priorities correct.

That's (merely) another o' those carry-over arguments, from the ReRon '80s.

Every time I'd heard that one (back then), it was typically from a traditional-wife/mother....the same ones who'd constantly suggested their Choice (to stay-at-home) was marginalized/denigrated by Libruls. I always got the impression they (just) needed to do some serious venting.....'cause they were feeling more trapped than they'd ever expected.​

More times than not from my limited experience women who so desperately need to vent are the very ones being told by a corrupt society that their way of living life SHOULD be questioned instead of giving them better tools that could help them overcome the sore and stagnant spots of such a way. OMGorsh... I vent, I always have and may hap always will... to a point, but for as long as people are coupled with people 'we' will forever have issues of disgruntled contentment. It is perhaps a wiser thing to select those in which we vent to more carefully, especially as we get older and recognize our investments for what they potentially are and what they could BECOME. *hearts*

 

[Mr. Shaman]

for the record: when we go to rug rat parties, our kids are far better behaved than the day care kids.

I agree wholeheartedly....yes....there is greater discipline in children that do not attend daycare.

Maybe that's because day care centers aren't allowed to use weapons, when disciplining children.

 

[Moonglow]

..It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want.
--Spock in 'Errand of Mercy'

 

[Iridescence]

Let those that need curiosity be so... some of 'us' have no further questions.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Can I ask something? Why are we always looking to downgrade people's lives instead of trying to make them better? Is this what we want? A downward spiral of the average American?

That's what I see from the right. No one deserves a living wage... But Millionaires and Billionaires are to be revered. No one but the rich deserve anything... they should learn to just be fucking grateful to live in this Wonderful Country and shut up.

Well the only thing you're right on is that it is a wonderful country... one where THEIR say is just as worthy of fighting for as the Billionaire's.

Hey!!

'C'MON!!!

Show a little faith in...

TRICKLE-DOWN!!!!

(It's GOTTA happen, soon!!)​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

True... Id didn't have to be this way. The 70's movement cost us a way of life. It also cost us the dumbing down and indoctrination of our youth in the school system.

Explain how the Women's Rights movement caused life to be so expensive that both husbands and wives have to work today.

Double the work force just to start. Lower wages for men. More Competition.

The big complaint I hear. A 40 hour work week, clean the house, do the shopping, pay for child care, take care of the bills.. etc.. no life and the kids are neglected.
May have something to do with the Liberal indoctrinated low IQ's out there.

....Or, even fetal-alcohol-syndrome....ya' never know.

What's your first recollection of navigating empty booze-bottles, before you first learned to walk?

​

 

[Iridescence]

Can I ask something? Why are we always looking to downgrade people's lives instead of trying to make them better? Is this what we want? A downward spiral of the average American?

That's what I see from the right. No one deserves a living wage... But Millionaires and Billionaires are to be revered. No one but the rich deserve anything... they should learn to just be fucking grateful to live in this Wonderful Country and shut up.

Well the only thing you're right on is that it is a wonderful country... one where THEIR say is just as worthy of fighting for as the Billionaire's.

Hey!!

'C'MON!!!

Show a little faith in...

TRICKLE-DOWN!!!!

(It's GOTTA happen, soon!!)​

• 
  
  YEP, just as soon as you stand up, dearest.​

 

[St.Blues]

If I told my Wife she could stay home with our kids she would kill me in my sleep. Any one stop to think that many woman in this world may actually LIKE to work ?

Of course... But, this is also about the many who would rather be home taking care of the household and family. That's a full time job.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Families that want a parent at home can often still do so, though it comes with costs. However, the costs for most aren't much different than many of our parents chose when it was mom at home. I think perhaps that may be one positive that is realized by this depression we are going through.

Right now isn't a great time for anyone employed to be leaving their jobs, if they are lucky enough to have a secure one. However, there are families with two working parents that are able to see what others are going through and may want to change their priorities, as a hedge perhaps against future instability.

Someone above said, what changed, that two parents were needed to keep the family going? Nothing, other than the expectations of 'normal.' It's part of what got us into the housing and credit bubbles. It started even before I married in 1980 or had my first child in 1981. Both my husband and I were college grads, he had his MS, I had two BA's. Both of us were in management with AT&T.

His dad is a nuclear engineer, his mom a pharmacist, before becoming a stay at home mom. My mom was a stay-at-home, though she'd been in management at Illinois Bell in the 40's and did accounting when my brother and I were in high school. My dad was successful in industrial steel sales. We both came from 'middle-upper class backgrounds.' Neither of us had been out of the country. Neither of us had traveled extensively even in the US. Both of our families had 'summer homes.' In both of our cases, mom and kids went to the summer homes pretty often, dads on weekends. The homes were worth less than 1/4 of main house.

When I became pregnant, the plan was to work to the last month and return in 6 weeks. We were already used to 2 vacations a year and wanted enough money to give our child 'everything.' At the end of first trimester it looked like I was losing the baby. I was ordered to total bed rest for 3 weeks. I had the time coming and we thought that would take care of the issue. When the ultrasound in the second week of rest found 'no heartbeat', we were beside ourselves. The next day they repeated the ultrasound, before going for a D & C. They picked up a heartbeat that time. Going to work became out of the question, I took a leave.

It was at this point our thinking changed. We realized we could get by on what the husband was making and still live comfortably, though up to this point I'd made more. However, we couldn't go to Europe as we'd had planned, indeed for about 3 years we couldn't go anywhere but our families summer homes. Yeah, real deprivation. We still had two cars, a house, a dog, and ate well. We still bought clothes without worrying about the costs. We had some of the new tech stuff, though not nearly all that the geek hubby would have liked.

Two years later, when second child was born there really wasn't a question any longer. Child care was expensive and both of us wanted the kids to be in the best schools we could provide, beginning with preschool. The 2 year old had already started at 5 morning Montessori and at 3 would start full day. We could afford that and by that time also afford a bigger home.

Long story short, it's about choices. Would I leave the workforce for 15 years as I did? Probably not, it's caused me some opportunities after divorce. However, those that say they can't 'get by' on less than two salaries? I don't buy it.

Yeah....it's $imply a matter o' being born into a family that can lend a helping-hand...when needed.​

His dad is a nuclear engineer, his mom a pharmacist, before becoming a stay at home mom. My mom was a stay-at-home, though she'd been in management at Illinois Bell in the 40's and did accounting when my brother and I were in high school. My dad was successful in industrial steel sales. We both came from 'middle-upper class backgrounds.'

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Can I ask something? Why are we always looking to downgrade people's lives instead of trying to make them better? Is this what we want? A downward spiral of the average American?

That's what I see from the right. No one deserves a living wage... But Millionaires and Billionaires are to be revered. No one but the rich deserve anything... they should learn to just be fucking grateful to live in this Wonderful Country and shut up.

Well the only thing you're right on is that it is a wonderful country... one where THEIR say is just as worthy of fighting for as the Billionaire's.

Take minimum wage. Do you know how many jobs have been lost because you artificially increase the labor costs? do you know how many companies could just no longer afford as many employees? Do you know how many companies had to ship jobs overseas because you make jobs here less affordable? Do you know how much more you've made the cost of living because you've artificially increased the labor costs?

YOU don't know, EITHER?

What's your point?

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

In a generation the employee market more than doubled. The economy adjusted accordingly, and now it takes 2 two incomes to live at the same relative standard as a single income did a generation ago. The market got flooded with employees.

It's simple supply and demand at work. The more people there are in the work force the lower the value of each.

What's worse is that not only does it take 2 people with college degress to support themselves and 2-3 kids at a middle-class level, but in addition to college employees have a lifetime of continuing education and job retraining just to stay par in income.

Given the jobs skills and education, plus the huge increase in the number of workers, productivity and real wealth creation has risen exponentially.

What's even worse is that we're losing our pensions and the retirement age is going up - when it should be going down.

I'm all for women having equal opportunity and I think that pre-school is great for kids. But the American people really need to start standing up to their employers and demanding their true value. If we did, we'd all be wealthy and retiring at 40.

Communist!!!!

(Don't take that, personally. I just wanted to beat "conservatives" to-the-punch.)​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

*I* just do not agree at all with the ideology that the 'cost of living' has increased. Not that it hasn't gotten more expensive to do certain things and to pay certain things but our minimum wage has also gone up.

....And, we've made health-care.....

Profitable!!!!!

(Just-in-time for all o' those Boomers who'd need it!! It's a miracle!)​

 

[Steelplate]

Can I ask something? Why are we always looking to downgrade people's lives instead of trying to make them better? Is this what we want? A downward spiral of the average American?

That's what I see from the right. No one deserves a living wage... But Millionaires and Billionaires are to be revered. No one but the rich deserve anything... they should learn to just be fucking grateful to live in this Wonderful Country and shut up.

Well the only thing you're right on is that it is a wonderful country... one where THEIR say is just as worthy of fighting for as the Billionaire's.

Downgrading from what? Lifestyles they can't afford?

Reality will take care of that. Sorry bub, we can't all be millionaires nor live like them.

Get over it. You come off as some petulant child overwrought with envy.

Downgrading from what? How about the day when a car loan didn't have to be taken out for 7 years to be affordable? How about the day when people paid their homes off in 10-15 years? How about the days when most people actually had cash in the bank and could afford to use that cash for emergencies and the occasional luxury.

No one is talking about your bullshit "living like Millionaires" barb. We are just talking about a little bit of breathing room instead of just surviving.

BTW, I come off as a petulant child... have you seen your brethrens' cries of "someone getting something for nothing"? "Why should I have to pay?" and the hate towards our elderly and soon to be elderly(baby boomers)? I think that after seeing a decade of an ever increasing wage disparity... where the wealthy see increases of some 500% and a total stagnation of the working class, combined with ever increasing prices of every necessity imaginable.... Luxuries? yeah... you can get a $30 DVD player, big fucking deal. But things we need(and they know we need) keep going up. Rising prices and stagnant wages have play a part in our "economic downturn" too.

And yes... it is germane to this thread. Unless a family is willing to bare bones it... both parents need to work.... hence... the backwards slide that I spoke of. I think we're a better country than that.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Things are too expensive these days, only the rich can have their wives sitting at home, the women have to join their husbands in the work force to afford a decent living.

Then maybe people need to change what they think of as a "decent living", H_G.

I have been my families only source of income for 20 years. We live a good lifestyle but we avoid debt like the plague. We already own our home and our cars. When one breaks down I fix it I dont trade it. When we need to buy a big ticket item like a fridge or a stove we pay cash.

Now to be fair the cost of living in southern WV is a lot lower than say southern CA but our wages are lower also.


Most importantly we save and save and save.

....'Cause, the Meaning O' Life is a Class A funeral?