Wind Power Extreme Costs Hidden, Maintenance, Consumers must pay

[elektra]

I am amused that Elektra is back with her anti-wind propaganda

A few amps short of a watt...

1 amp equals 12 watts, if using Wind Turbines it takes 3 amps to equal 1 watt, or 36 amps to create 12 watts, given the capacity factor.

Even your jokes are a huge waste of resources, I bet your down for maintenance, now.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Wind Turbines provide almost no power and once you add the maintenance to the expense, you are not even breaking even.

Link?

Wind energy frequently asked questions (FAQ)| EWEA

How long does a wind turbine work for?

Wind turbines can carry on generating electricity for 20-25 years. Over their lifetime they will be running continuously for as much as 120,000 hours. This compares with the design lifetime of a car engine, which is 4,000 to 6,000 hours

Over the course of a year, it will typically generate about 24% of the theoretical maximum output (41% offshore). This is known as its capacity factor. The capacity factor of conventional power stations is on average 50%-80%. Because of stoppages for maintenance or breakdowns, no power plant generates power for 100% of the time.

How much electricity can one wind turbine generate?

The output of a wind turbine depends on the turbine's size and the wind's speed through the rotor.

An average onshore wind turbine with a capacity of 2.5–3 MW can produce more than 6 million kWh in a year – enough to supply 1,500 average EU households with electricity.
An average offshore wind turbine of 3.6 MW can power more than 3,312 average EU households.

How much coal, natural gas, or petroleum is used to generate a kilowatthour of electricity?

(EIA)

Two formulas that can be used to calculate the amount of fuel used to generate a kilowatthour (kWh) of electricity:

• • Amount of fuel used per kWh = Heat rate (in Btu per kWh) / Fuel heat content (in Btu per physical unit)
  • Kilowatthour generated per unit of fuel used = Fuel heat content (in Btu per physical unit) / Heat rate (in Btu per kWh)

Calculation examples using these two formulas and the assumptions below:

• Amount of fuel used to generate 1 kilowatthour (kWh):
  
  • • Coal = 0.00052 short tons or 1.05 pounds
    • Natural gas = 0.01010 Mcf (an Mcf equals 1,000 cubic feet)
    • Petroleum = 0.00175 barrels (or 0.07 gallons)
  • Kilowatthour generated per unit of fuel used:
    • 1,904 kWh per ton, 0.95 kWh per pound, of coal
    • 99 kWh per Mcf (1,000 cubic feet) of natural gas
    • 570 kWh per barrel, or 13.6 kWh per gallon, of petroleum

So, whatever a ton of 'hydrocarbon' is, the coal used to produce the power of an average onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine over a twenty year lifetime is

6 million kWh x 20 years = 120 million kWh lifetime onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine electricity production

divided by 1904 kWh/ton of coal = 63,025 tons of coal.

I like how you use the maximum rated capacity in your estimates

FYI it has been shown that wind mills only produce on average 30% at best of their rated capacity and usually far far less
European Renewable Energy performance and costs: 2014

well it only makes sense unlike nuclear power or fossil fuel plants

these renewable sources are at the whim of whatever the weather out put is at the time

not a good source of demand energy

Windmills only produce optimal output in a very specific range of wind speeds
Too much wind and they gave to be braked or shut down
Too little and the turbines work inefficiently

I have to laugh at these people who claim to be pro technology and pro science and who indeed are quick to criticize others for being anti science Troglodytes yet they refuse to take an unbiased look at the data

that is a pretty common trait for these folks whether it be windmills- guns or pretty much any topic

 

[cnm]

FYI it has been shown that wind mills only produce on average 30% at best of their rated capacity and usually far far less

You're including solar in that graphic.

 

[cnm]

I have to laugh at these people who claim to be pro technology and pro science and who indeed are quick to criticize others for being anti science Troglodytes yet they refuse to take an unbiased look at the data

I like that from the dude who includes solar in what is purported to be wind turbine information.

 

[elektra]

So, whatever a ton of 'hydrocarbon' is, the coal used to produce the power of an average onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine over a twenty year lifetime is

6 million kWh x 20 years = 120 million kWh lifetime onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine electricity production

divided by 1904 kWh/ton of coal = 63,025 tons of coal.

Nice figures, making a ton of cement is equal to 400 tons of coal, your Wind Turbine uses 1,000 tons of concrete for its base, or given the standard 5:1 ratio, 200 tons of cement.

80,000 tons of Coal is needed just for the Concrete in one Wind Turbine's base.
Looks to me, that one Wind Turbine never recoups the energy just for the base? How many tons of coal does it take to make the tower? The blades, the nacelle, the bearings, the gearbox?

Emissions from the Cement Industry

Cement manufacturing is highly energy – and – emissions intensive because of the extreme heat required to produce it. Producing a ton of cement requires 4.7 million BTU of energy, equivalent to about 400 pounds of coal, and generates nearly a tonof CO2. Given its high emissions and critical importance to society, cement is an obvious place to look to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Will we see a reply?

 

[cnm]

The figures I gave are near enough. The lifetime was a little conservative, the capacity a little generous. So what? Take 20% off them if you want, that still leaves 50,000 odd tons of coal equivalent energy production in a 3 MW onshore wind turbine 20 year lifetime.

 

[cnm]

Will we see a reply?

Will we see a link to back up your assertions?

 

[cnm]

Nice figures, making a ton of cement is equal to 400 tons of coal, your Wind Turbine uses 1,000 tons of concrete for its base, or given the standard 5:1 ratio, 200 tons of cement.

80,000 tons of Coal is needed just for the Concrete in one Wind Turbine's base.

Emissions from the Cement Industry

Producing a ton of cement requires 4.7 million BTU of energy, equivalent to about 400 pounds of coal

So what coal equivalent is required for a ton of cement?

And where is your link for 1,000 tons of concrete in a wind turbine base?

 

[Skull Pilot]

FYI it has been shown that wind mills only produce on average 30% at best of their rated capacity and usually far far less

You're including solar in that.

So then wind does even worse

 

[Skull Pilot]

Windmills don't last as long as estimated

Wind farm turbines wear sooner than expected, says study

FuturePundit: Energy Wind Archives

A study from the John Muir Trust finds that British wind power output sometimes falls to less than 5% of peak (nameplate) capacity.

Analysis of UK Wind Generation, is the result of detailed analysis of windfarm output in Scotland over a 26-month period between November 2008 to December 2010 using data from the BMRS (Balancing Mechanism Reporting System). It's the first report of its kind, and drew on data freely available to the public. It challenges five common assertions made regularly by wind industry and the Scottish Government:

1. 'Wind turbines will generate on average 30% of their rated capacity over a year'
In fact, the average output from wind was 27.18% of metered capacity in 2009, 21.14% in 2010, and 24.08% between November 2008 and December 2010 inclusive.

 

[elektra]

Nice figures, making a ton of cement is equal to 400 tons of coal, your Wind Turbine uses 1,000 tons of concrete for its base, or given the standard 5:1 ratio, 200 tons of cement.

80,000 tons of Coal is needed just for the Concrete in one Wind Turbine's base.

Emissions from the Cement Industry

Producing a ton of cement requires 4.7 million BTU of energy, equivalent to about 400 pounds of coal

So what coal equivalent is required for a ton of cement?

And where is your link for 1,000 tons of concrete in a wind turbine base?

Shock and Denial, how sweet, you want a link on Wind Power? I thought you knew everything about Wind Power'

cnm needs proof that a 300 ton wind turbine, that stands 300 feet in the air, and can withstand 50 mph winds needs a 1000 ton foundation? I rounded the number, I bet it takes more!

Can you imagine the force, 300 tons, and at that it is a huge lever, which increases the force.

 

[cnm]

So then wind does even worse

And you talk of troglodytes.

Pfffft.

 

[cnm]

cnm needs proof

So what coal figure for cement production are you going with? Apart from which, I've provided my sources for everything I've given. If you don't want to back up your assertions, fair enough, but don't blame me for not taking your word for it.

 

[cnm]

Wind turbines will generate on average 30% of their rated capacity over a year'
In fact, the average output from wind was 27.18% of metered capacity in 2009, 21.14% in 2010, and 24.08% between November 2008 and December 2010 inclusive.

Possibly very close to the figure I used in my example, which you derided.

Of course that depends on the meaning of 'rated capacity' and 'metered capacity'.

 

[elektra]

cnm needs proof

So what coal figure for cement production are you going with? Apart from which, I've provided my sources for everything I've given. If you don't want to back up your assertions, fair enough, but don't blame me for not taking your word for it.

I gave a link, and quoted.

You do not know much about anything do you, Cement Production is thee most energy intensive industry in the World. You must heat the materials to 3000 degrees to make cement.

You can check all kinds of places for the figures, what are you going to do, ignore GOOGLE? It is right there, you used it to provide your figures, my post has my link, so I understand, you can not argue with the facts.

How much Coal do you think we need to manufacture a 300 ton Wind Turbine? 80,000 tons just for the base, I bet it is close to 80,000 tons for the rest of the monster.

Over a 150,000 tons of coal per wind turbine, not including transportation.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Wind turbines will generate on average 30% of their rated capacity over a year'
In fact, the average output from wind was 27.18% of metered capacity in 2009, 21.14% in 2010, and 24.08% between November 2008 and December 2010 inclusive.

Possibly very close to the figure I used in my example, which you derided.

Of course that depends on the meaning of 'rated capacity' and 'metered capacity'.

Possibly very close?

You used the nominal capacity of a 3 MW turbine over 20 years and you assumed the wind would be blowing at the optimal velocity constantly for those 20 years

In reality a 3 MW turbine will produce 0.9 MW and will not last 20 years

Wind is a waste of money

 

[Old Rocks]

So, whatever a ton of 'hydrocarbon' is, the coal used to produce the power of an average onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine over a twenty year lifetime is

6 million kWh x 20 years = 120 million kWh lifetime onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine electricity production

divided by 1904 kWh/ton of coal = 63,025 tons of coal.

Nice figures, making a ton of cement is equal to 400 tons of coal, your Wind Turbine uses 1,000 tons of concrete for its base, or given the standard 5:1 ratio, 200 tons of cement.

80,000 tons of Coal is needed just for the Concrete in one Wind Turbine's base.
Looks to me, that one Wind Turbine never recoups the energy just for the base? How many tons of coal does it take to make the tower? The blades, the nacelle, the bearings, the gearbox?

Emissions from the Cement Industry

Cement manufacturing is highly energy – and – emissions intensive because of the extreme heat required to produce it. Producing a ton of cement requires 4.7 million BTU of energy, equivalent to about 400 pounds of coal, and generates nearly a tonof CO2. Given its high emissions and critical importance to society, cement is an obvious place to look to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Emissions from the Cement Industry

Producing a ton of cement requires 4.7 million BTU of energy, equivalent to about 400 pounds of coal,

So, 400 lbs per ton of concrete. Or 0.2 ton coal per ton Concrete.

NextEra Energy uses over 800 metric tons of concrete per wind turbine

NextEra Energy uses over 800 metric tons of concrete for each turbine they construct, with investments worth $1.7 billion and 8 wind projects in Ontario, also adding more jobs in the concrete industry.

A metric ton is about 2205 llbs, and we will use 820 for over 800 metric tons. 2205 X 820/2000 = 904 tons of concrete per mill. These are the large mills, as the 1.5 mW mills only take 150 tons per base. So, 0.2 X 904 = 181 tons of coal per base. A bit less than the 80,000 tons you stated, Elektra. Perhaps a fourth grade class in remedial math would be the ticket for you.

 

[Old Rocks]

I am amused that Elektra is back with her anti-wind propaganda

A few amps short of a watt...

1 amp equals 12 watts, if using Wind Turbines it takes 3 amps to equal 1 watt, or 36 amps to create 12 watts, given the capacity factor.

Even your jokes are a huge waste of resources, I bet your down for maintenance, now.

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! W = IV ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nuclear technician, indeed LOL

 

[Old Rocks]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?_r=0

In Texas, Austin Energy signed a deal this spring for 20 years of output from a solar farm at less than 5 cents a kilowatt-hour. In September, the Grand River Dam Authority in Oklahoma announced its approval of a new agreement to buy power from a new wind farm expected to be completed next year. Grand River estimated the deal would save its customers roughly $50 million from the project.

And, also in Oklahoma, American Electric Power ended up tripling the amount of wind power it had originally sought after seeing how low the bids came in last year.

“Wind was on sale — it was a Blue Light Special,” said Jay Godfrey, managing director of renewable energy for the company. He noted that Oklahoma, unlike many states, did not require utilities to buy power from renewable sources.

“We were doing it because it made sense for our ratepayers,” he said.

According to a study by the investment banking firm Lazard, the cost of utility-scale solar energy is as low as 5.6 cents a kilowatt-hour, and wind is as low as 1.4 cents. In comparison, natural gas comes at 6.1 cents a kilowatt-hour on the low end and coal at 6.6 cents. Without subsidies, the firm’s analysis shows, solar costs about 7.2 cents a kilowatt-hour at the low end, with wind at 3.7 cents.

This article is over a year and one half old. Today, both wind and solar are cheaper than when this was written. Alternative energies are winning on economic basis.

 

[elektra]

So, whatever a ton of 'hydrocarbon' is, the coal used to produce the power of an average onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine over a twenty year lifetime is

6 million kWh x 20 years = 120 million kWh lifetime onshore 2.5–3 MW wind turbine electricity production

divided by 1904 kWh/ton of coal = 63,025 tons of coal.

Nice figures, making a ton of cement is equal to 400 tons of coal, your Wind Turbine uses 1,000 tons of concrete for its base, or given the standard 5:1 ratio, 200 tons of cement.

80,000 tons of Coal is needed just for the Concrete in one Wind Turbine's base.
Looks to me, that one Wind Turbine never recoups the energy just for the base? How many tons of coal does it take to make the tower? The blades, the nacelle, the bearings, the gearbox?

Emissions from the Cement Industry

Cement manufacturing is highly energy – and – emissions intensive because of the extreme heat required to produce it. Producing a ton of cement requires 4.7 million BTU of energy, equivalent to about 400 pounds of coal, and generates nearly a tonof CO2. Given its high emissions and critical importance to society, cement is an obvious place to look to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Emissions from the Cement Industry

Producing a ton of cement requires 4.7 million BTU of energy, equivalent to about 400 pounds of coal,

So, 400 lbs per ton of concrete. Or 0.2 ton coal per ton Concrete.

NextEra Energy uses over 800 metric tons of concrete per wind turbine

NextEra Energy uses over 800 metric tons of concrete for each turbine they construct, with investments worth $1.7 billion and 8 wind projects in Ontario, also adding more jobs in the concrete industry.

A metric ton is about 2205 llbs, and we will use 820 for over 800 metric tons. 2205 X 820/2000 = 904 tons of concrete per mill. These are the large mills, as the 1.5 mW mills only take 150 tons per base. So, 0.2 X 904 = 181 tons of coal per base. A bit less than the 80,000 tons you stated, Elektra. Perhaps a fourth grade class in remedial math would be the ticket for you.

I certainly made a mistake there, old crock, you got me once. Gloat while you can. I took inadvertently used tons and lbs.

But unlike you, I have not ran from my mistakes or where I am completely wrong, Old Crock, you on the other hand simply ignore everything you are wrong about.