Will Harper ever visit Turkey?

[Sallow]

Create a thread about it and ask rather than hijack this one.

Well, continue if you wish. I will simply use the broken record technique against hijacking.

So basically you put these threads up..and expect not to be challenged?

Then what's the point?

Challenge the OP. You know that.

Come on Sallow. Quit whining and stay on track.

Not whining at all.

See High_Gravity? He came back with a relevant fact.

That's how this works.

 

[Ropey]

Not whining at all.

Yes you are by complaining you are not allowed to post to hijack a thread.

You are also minimizing the act of genocide by attempting to attach a human identity to it in general so that you can then attempt to create comparisons as if those comparisons show a moral equivalence.

 

[Ropey]

So HG hijacks this thread to show Israel supporting the fight against genocide in Sudan. You created the hijack and support HG in this.

This thread is not about that. Note that I responded to him in the same way as you and I assume that he dislikes the neg as much as you as well.

Regardless.

 

[High_Gravity]

The Armenian Genocide was carried out by the "Young Turk" government of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1916 (with subsidiaries to 1922-23). One and a half million Armenians were killed, out of a total of two and a half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
Most Armenians in America are children or grandchildren of the survivors, although there are still many survivors amongst us.

Armenians all over the world commemorate this great tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in 1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were rounded up, deported and killed. Also on that day in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes.

The Armenian Genocide was masterminded by the Central Committee of the Young Turk Party (Committee for Union and Progress [Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyet, in Turkish]) which was dominated by Mehmed Talât [Pasha], Ismail Enver [Pasha], and Ahmed Djemal [Pasha]. They were a racist group whose ideology was articulated by Zia Gökalp, Dr. Mehmed Nazim, and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.

The Armenian Genocide was directed by a Special Organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa) set up by the Committee of Union and Progress, which created special "butcher battalions," made up of violent criminals released from prison.

Some righteous Ottoman officials such as Celal, governor of Aleppo; Mazhar, governor of Ankara; and Reshid, governor of Kastamonu, were dismissed for not complying with the extermination campaign. Any common Turks who protected Armenians were killed.

The Armenian Genocide occurred in a systematic fashion, which proves that it was directed by the Young Turk government.

First the Armenians in the army were disarmed, placed into labor battalions, and then killed.

Then the Armenian political and intellectual leaders were rounded up on April 24, 1915, and then killed.

Finally, the remaining Armenians were called from their homes, told they would be relocated, and then marched off to concentration camps in the desert between Jerablus and Deir ez-Zor where they would starve and thirst to death in the burning sun.

On the march, often they would be denied food and water, and many were brutalized and killed by their "guards" or by "marauders." The authorities in Trebizond, on the Black Sea coast, did vary this routine: they loaded Armenians on barges and sank them out at sea.

The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone." The Armenian Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia [present-day Turkey], and not just in the so-called "war zone." Deportations and killings occurred in the west, in and around Ismid (Izmit) and Broussa (Bursa); in the center, in and around Angora (Ankara); in the south-west, in and around Konia (Konya) and Adana (which is near the Mediterranean Sea); in the central portion of Anatolia, in and around Diyarbekir (Diyarbakir), Harpout (Harput), Marash, Sivas (Sepastia), Shabin Kara-Hissar (�ebin Karahisar), and Ourfa (Urfa); and on the Black Sea coast, in and around Trebizond (Trabzon), all of which are not part of a war zone. Only Erzeroum, Bitlis, and Van in the east were in the war zone.

FACT SHEET: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

 

[Sallow]

So HG hijacks this thread to show Israel supporting the fight against genocide in Sudan. You created the hijack and support HG in this.

This thread is not about that. Note that I responded to him in the same way as you and I assume that he dislikes the neg as much as you as well.

Regardless.

Well I am not really sure what you are looking for then.

Are you saying that all nations should comply with UN resolutions? Or that Turks are evil and wicked people? Or that the sky is blue? Or that chocolate milk comes from a chocolate cow?

Something bad happened to Armenians and the Turks were responsible. No one really denies that. Turks see it one way..other people see it another way. They were asked to "apologize" and didn't. That should be the end of the story. Because no one really has any standing to force them to do something they don't want to do. And why it's such an issue among the right wing..and Israelis..is pretty suspect.

So..if you want..in the interest of your thread's harmony..

I agree something terrible happened to the Armenians..and I agree that the Turks were responsible. Those are the facts.

Happy?

 

[Ropey]

[I agree something terrible happened to the Armenians..and I agree that the Turks were responsible. Those are the facts.

Happy?

Something terrible.

Are you really that dim? Or just pretending?

The Armenian Genocide was carried out by the "Young Turk" government of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1916 (with subsidiaries to 1922-23). One and a half million Armenians were killed, out of a total of two and a half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
Most Armenians in America are children or grandchildren of the survivors, although there are still many survivors amongst us.

Armenians all over the world commemorate this great tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in 1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were rounded up, deported and killed. Also on that day in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes.

The Armenian Genocide was masterminded by the Central Committee of the Young Turk Party (Committee for Union and Progress [Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyet, in Turkish]) which was dominated by Mehmed Talât [Pasha], Ismail Enver [Pasha], and Ahmed Djemal [Pasha]. They were a racist group whose ideology was articulated by Zia Gökalp, Dr. Mehmed Nazim, and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.

The Armenian Genocide was directed by a Special Organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa) set up by the Committee of Union and Progress, which created special "butcher battalions," made up of violent criminals released from prison.

Some righteous Ottoman officials such as Celal, governor of Aleppo; Mazhar, governor of Ankara; and Reshid, governor of Kastamonu, were dismissed for not complying with the extermination campaign. Any common Turks who protected Armenians were killed.

The Armenian Genocide occurred in a systematic fashion, which proves that it was directed by the Young Turk government.

First the Armenians in the army were disarmed, placed into labor battalions, and then killed.

Then the Armenian political and intellectual leaders were rounded up on April 24, 1915, and then killed.

Finally, the remaining Armenians were called from their homes, told they would be relocated, and then marched off to concentration camps in the desert between Jerablus and Deir ez-Zor where they would starve and thirst to death in the burning sun.

On the march, often they would be denied food and water, and many were brutalized and killed by their "guards" or by "marauders." The authorities in Trebizond, on the Black Sea coast, did vary this routine: they loaded Armenians on barges and sank them out at sea.

The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone." The Armenian Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia [present-day Turkey], and not just in the so-called "war zone." Deportations and killings occurred in the west, in and around Ismid (Izmit) and Broussa (Bursa); in the center, in and around Angora (Ankara); in the south-west, in and around Konia (Konya) and Adana (which is near the Mediterranean Sea); in the central portion of Anatolia, in and around Diyarbekir (Diyarbakir), Harpout (Harput), Marash, Sivas (Sepastia), Shabin Kara-Hissar (�ebin Karahisar), and Ourfa (Urfa); and on the Black Sea coast, in and around Trebizond (Trabzon), all of which are not part of a war zone. Only Erzeroum, Bitlis, and Van in the east were in the war zone.

FACT SHEET: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

^^ Quoted for clarity.

Something terrible, for comparison is an earthquake where many die Sallow.

Genocide is far more than that and this is about Turkey's genocide of the Armenians AND Canada's desire for Turkey to address this systematic slaughter of a people.

Which is why I posted this to you just a few posts back.

You are also minimizing the act of genocide by attempting to attach a human identity to it in general so that you can then attempt to create comparisons as if those comparisons show a moral equivalence.

 

[High_Gravity]

I think Turkey needs to man up and own what happened to the Armenians, America takes full blame for slavery and throwing the Japanese in internment camps during WW2, you have to own your mistakes as well as your accomplishments.

 

[Ropey]

FACT SHEET: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

There is no response to this map. I believe that's terrible.

The genocide is far worse imo.

 

[High_Gravity]

Why the Turkish Revenge Brigade launches threats now

“…Do not forget that beside the Armenian citizens of Turkey, there are also Armenians from Armenia in our land, and they number over 100,000. Both their addresses and their workplaces are well known.

Henceforth, we hope to see our Armenian citizens as advocates of truth concerning the Armenian genocide or any other matter and as defenders of Turkish statehood.”

“We shall keep an eye on how the Armenians are playing this role. Otherwise, Armenians shall be those to lie in the grave and count how many Armenians and how many Turks there were in the ‘ages long past.' This land has never pardoned treachery and shall not. Who does not stand for our paradise homeland is against us and shall be vanquished.”

These passages are taken from a letter that was sent to Armenian schools in 2007. It was sent after Hrant Dink was killed, and the letter was threatening Turkey's handful of minorities. In those days, minorities used to receive these kinds of “nasty” letters on a daily basis. When the Ergenekon probe started not only did we gain an “insight” into who was behind these threats, but we also witnessed that these kinds of threats stopped immediately.

In those days not only were minority groups but also intellectuals seriously threatened. One of these intellectuals was Baskın Oran, an academic and human rights defender. Oran is very well known in Turkey with his firm stance in defending the rights of minorities. An ultranationalist group -- and in my opinion one of the unexposed Ergenekon cells -- the Turkish Revenge Brigade (TİT), used to threaten Oran in those days.

This cell was apparently recently reactivated and threatened Oran and others. Oran received the latest threat on June 2 through a message sent via email to the Armenian Agos newspaper, where he is working as a columnist.

The threatening letter contained a death list including Turkish-Armenian journalist Etyen Mahçupyan and Kurdish politicians Osman Baydemir, Sebahat Tuncel and Akın Birdal. The letter was signed by TİT and read as follows:

"He leads a dishonorable life by currying favor with the Armenians. Baskın Oran, you still cannot put up with the word 'Turk' on Turkish soil. … Take your dogs and go to Armenia. Otherwise, death will be the inevitable end for you. … Your time has come to die. … We hereby announce as the Turkish Revenge Brigade that we will close this account. On June 17, we will remove the bastard called Baskın Oran, and we will demonstrate the power of Turkish honor."

Oran published an important article in Radikal this Sunday and tried to explain why these kinds of threats started to be sent once again. I found his explanations quite illuminative and insightful. I took his analysis very seriously, and I hope it will be taken seriously by the people concerned as well.

Oran said that the threats he used to receive from TİT before had suddenly come to an end when the Ergenekon investigation started. He also explains TİT's re-emergence nowadays with the failures in the Ergenekon trial. Among other things, he emphasizes the following shortcomings and wrongdoings with respect to the Ergenekon case:

1) The Ergenekon cases were not probed deeply in the right direction. They went sideways. These cases are not handled by efficient courts, and they are taking ages to proceed.

2) Ergenekon suspects are encouraged by the judiciary's attitude. They openly threaten the court before which they are being tried in the hearings. And the courts can do nothing to stop them.

3) The main opposition party, the Republican People's Party (CHP), nominated Ergenekon members as deputy candidates and is now trying to free them from prison.

I agree with Oran in thinking that the failures and shortcomings in the struggle against the Ergenekon gang may be encouraging some unexposed elements within this gang to continue with their old business.

I hope these threats will not mark a change of direction in Turkey. I hope they will not be followed by other threats and attacks on minorities and intellectuals as happened before the Ergenekon case was initiated.

Why the Turkish Revenge Brigade launches threats now

 

[Sallow]

I think Turkey needs to man up and own what happened to the Armenians, America takes full blame for slavery and throwing the Japanese in internment camps during WW2, you have to own your mistakes as well as your accomplishments.

Please.

America's forgotten more "bad things" then has admitted to them.

I think America is a far more positive then negative country..but it has it's share of dark moments.

 

[High_Gravity]

I think Turkey needs to man up and own what happened to the Armenians, America takes full blame for slavery and throwing the Japanese in internment camps during WW2, you have to own your mistakes as well as your accomplishments.

Please.

America's forgotten more "bad things" then has admitted to them.

I think America is a far more positive then negative country..but it has it's share of dark moments.

I don't get the big deal, why shouldn't Turkey just own this and admit it? its not like its a big secret anymore, this is like the US trying to deny slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.

 

[High_Gravity]

The Armenian Genocide: The Holocaust That Inspired Hitler

It has been called the hidden holocaust because it seems to be almost forgotten. Armenians call it the Great Crime. Most historians and scholars consider it to be the first genocide of the 20th century. It is the second-most studied genocide after the Holocaust. It is also considered the first modern genocide considering the organization, deportation, and efficient executions.

The Armenian Genocide (1914-1917) was the mass killing of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire [modern-day Turkey] by the Ottomans [Turks].

Prior to the actual genocide, the Muslim Turks committed a series of massacres against the Armenians, most of whom were Christian:

Hamidian Massacres (1894-1896)–Estimated deaths: 100,000-300,000

Adana Massacre (1909)–Estimated deaths: 15,000-30,000

Armenian Genocide (1915-1917): 1,000,000-1,500,000

The Armenian Genocide: The Holocaust That Inspired Hitler | serpentus

 

[Ropey]

I believe that there's no doubt where Turkey's direction is headed. Islamic fundamentalism is the path to the next attempted creation of an Empiric thrust.

I also believe that had Turkey continued on their secular path, and expiated their genocide they would already be a part of the EU.

It's a two threaded issue. The genocide that happened before and what may return to the arena, so I personally would like to see Turkey address this wrong but they are moving in the opposite direction and I see it clearly.

Others may see it differently and some I will simply agree to disagree with when they do not see the same degree of the issue.

I mean if someone says that genocide is terrible, then everything else that is considered terrible is conflated and attached to genocide in a moral equivalence.

What's left to argue if the main tenet facet is devalued?

I think Turkey needs to man up and own what happened to the Armenians, America takes full blame for slavery and throwing the Japanese in internment camps during WW2, you have to own your mistakes as well as your accomplishments.

Please.

America's forgotten more "bad things" then has admitted to them.

I think America is a far more positive then negative country..but it has it's share of dark moments.

I don't get the big deal, why shouldn't Turkey just own this and admit it? its not like its a big secret anymore, this is like the US trying to deny slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.

Because I believe what is in plan for Turkey's future is more of the same.

Hitler thought that if the Turks could commit genocide and get away with it, so could he. Two years before the Holocaust he said:

Who after all speaks today of the of the annihilation of the Armenians?

The Armenian genocide « Abagond

 

[Sallow]

I think Turkey needs to man up and own what happened to the Armenians, America takes full blame for slavery and throwing the Japanese in internment camps during WW2, you have to own your mistakes as well as your accomplishments.

Please.

America's forgotten more "bad things" then has admitted to them.

I think America is a far more positive then negative country..but it has it's share of dark moments.

I don't get the big deal, why shouldn't Turkey just own this and admit it? its not like its a big secret anymore, this is like the US trying to deny slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.

I put this up for Ropey..but you may want to take a gander too.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...or-ropey-u-s-genocide-in-the-philippines.html

The US has yet to apologize for lots of things..like the Philippines, China (Boxer Rebellion), Iran, Vietnam, and now Iraq.

Israel isn't all that "innocent" either.

 

[High_Gravity]

Please.

America's forgotten more "bad things" then has admitted to them.

I think America is a far more positive then negative country..but it has it's share of dark moments.

I don't get the big deal, why shouldn't Turkey just own this and admit it? its not like its a big secret anymore, this is like the US trying to deny slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.

I put this up for Ropey..but you may want to take a gander too.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...or-ropey-u-s-genocide-in-the-philippines.html

The US has yet to apologize for lots of things..like the Philippines, China (Boxer Rebellion), Iran, Vietnam, and now Iraq.

Israel isn't all that "innocent" either.

Turkey doesn't even acknowledge the Armenian genocide occured though, all these atrocities you listed are right there in the American History books.

 

[Sallow]

I don't get the big deal, why shouldn't Turkey just own this and admit it? its not like its a big secret anymore, this is like the US trying to deny slavery or slaughtering the Native Americans.

I put this up for Ropey..but you may want to take a gander too.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...or-ropey-u-s-genocide-in-the-philippines.html

The US has yet to apologize for lots of things..like the Philippines, China (Boxer Rebellion), Iran, Vietnam, and now Iraq.

Israel isn't all that "innocent" either.

Turkey doesn't even acknowledge the Armenian genocide occured though, all these atrocities you listed are right there in the American History books.

Yeah..but they aren't acknowledged as Genocides.

 

[Ropey]

I put this up for Ropey..but you may want to take a gander too.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...or-ropey-u-s-genocide-in-the-philippines.html

The US has yet to apologize for lots of things..like the Philippines, China (Boxer Rebellion), Iran, Vietnam, and now Iraq.

Israel isn't all that "innocent" either.

Turkey doesn't even acknowledge the Armenian genocide occured though, all these atrocities you listed are right there in the American History books.

Yeah..but they aren't acknowledged as Genocides.

You continually try to hijack this and HG likes to follow hijacks, but I will continue to put this back on track.

Where are the Armenians in what is now called Turkey Sallow?

Tell us.

 

[Ropey]

I put this up for Ropey

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...or-ropey-u-s-genocide-in-the-philippines.html

The US has yet to apologize for lots of things..like the Philippines, China (Boxer Rebellion), Iran, Vietnam, and now Iraq.

Israel isn't all that "innocent" either.

Because you are simply hijacking the OP.

Do I need to repost the OP?

I mean if someone says that genocide is terrible, then everything else that is considered terrible is conflated and attached to genocide in a moral equivalence.

What's left to argue if the main tenet facet is devalued?

That's where the agenda of Sallow is to be found.

 

[Sallow]

I put this up for Ropey

http://www.usmessageboard.com/gener...or-ropey-u-s-genocide-in-the-philippines.html

The US has yet to apologize for lots of things..like the Philippines, China (Boxer Rebellion), Iran, Vietnam, and now Iraq.

Israel isn't all that "innocent" either.

Because you are simply hijacking the OP.

Do I need to repost the OP?

I mean if someone says that genocide is terrible, then everything else that is considered terrible is conflated and attached to genocide in a moral equivalence.

What's left to argue if the main tenet facet is devalued?

That's where the agenda of Sallow is to be found.

Your contention might be valid if Turkey continued along the same trajectory. It has not. In fact..it's been a valuable ally to the United States. It's also become one of the most successful countries in the region. It was Ataturk that modernized Turkey..and I never see a thread from you..or frankly any pro Israeli poster acknowledging this. It's also been an important player in terms of regional stability.

You and your ilk seek nothing more to demonize the country and it's people. That's why we see thread after thread about this particular event.

Your interest is pretty clear. And it's not to stop Genocide.

 

[Ropey]

Your interest is pretty clear. And it's not to stop Genocide.

^^ My interest is to hold Turkey to account so that it does not repeat its history. I see and believe that the movement in Turkey is to repeat its past in the next great war. I see that this war comes.

^^ My OP reasoning.

You and your ilk seek nothing more to demonize the country and it's people. That's why we see thread after thread about this particular event.

Yes, my ilk.