Why the poor should be taxed more heavily.

[Contessa_Sharra]

__________

How many jobs were you given by a poor person?

All those jobs in social services, etc, at four or ten or twenty times what that poor person makes --- All of these people are P L O Ps : People Living Off the Poor!

Private sector jobs like Check into Cash, and so on...

Everyone that works at Walmart, anyone who works at a food Bank, anyone who works at a church, and so on.... The POOR are the reason many have jobs and make a good living!

Most of the people at our foodbank are volunteers. I volunteer to give out lunches at a church every Monday to the homeless. The community supper at the church is also staffed by volunteers....Next pathetic excuse?????

I said WORK, not volunteer, and because I am familiar with the system and know people with PAID jobs at "charitable organizations," including food banks. I know the difference.

However, you are to be congratulated on having such a nice and secure life that you can VOLUNTEER your time to those you seem to consider less than you. Must be nice for those there "begging" a meal for self or family to be blessed with someone squinting down their upraised nose at them.

Perhaps you could put up a sign for the VOLUNTEERS: "God loves a cheerful giver."

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written: "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever."[a] 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

2 Cor. 6 - 15.

 

[Mr Natural]

Not only do they fall under the bar - they receive tax refunds for money that was never paid in! The upper income brackets already subsidize the poor in this country, and liberals feel this subsidization is to be increased.

Thus, the poor receive "just enough" to scrape by, and the trap of near-poverty is in place. Liberals then come along during election time and warn these non taxpayers that the evil conservatives will take away their subsidies - or that these "wealthy" could actually afford to subsidize them even more but are too greedy to do so.

This nation makes it far to easy to remain "poor"...

The rich make their money of the labor of the poor, the poor don't make enough to live so we have welfare, hence, we are subsidizing the rich who refuse to pay their workers a living wage. The top 10% of this nation owns more wealth than the bottom 90% combined, they should be paying more than 90% of the taxes.

__________

How many jobs were you given by a poor person?

How many wealthy people made their fortunes on their own?

 

[Father Time]

" I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it."
-- Benjamin Franklin, November 1776

Just maybe, if the poor were taxed more heavily than the wealthy, it would encourage them to better their position in life so that they could avoid paying so much in taxes.
The government frequently taxes things to discourage it. Things like tobacco and alcohol come to mind. The cap and trade will be a tax to discourage certain types of energy usage the government doesn't want.

What about people who are physically disabled? I saw a homeless man who's hands were literally fleshy balls with tiny stubs for fingers, how's he going to get work?

Also I'll refer you to Dick Armey's comments on taxes

"There's only one legitimate reason to levy a tax and that's to raise money, anything else is a corruption"

 

[Againsheila]

If I could you show you that lower wages have helped the average family would you agree I am right and shut the fuck up? Or would you carp that it doesn't apply, that the source is biased because you can't make a living?

FYI, my husband is making a fairly good living right now so we are okay...and we are sharing what we have with others who aren't so okay.

I'm going to assume you can't show any such study that isn't biased or you wouldn't have asked that question in the first place.

Having resorted to bad language, I'm going to guess that I've won the argument as well.

I thoguht you were one step away from homeless the way you talked. I guess that wasn't so either.
From your response I take it that any study I provided you would find biased. Your definition of bias seems to be "doesn't agree with my preconceived notions".

You mean, how dare I stand up for the poor?

I've been there..have you? Perhaps that's why I feel for them and do what I can for them. The first time in my life I had a dress that belonged to me before it belonged to someone else was in 4th grade. My mother got 3 dresses for $5.00 at Sears. One of them was really ugly, but I wore it.

Not too long ago we went through 3 years of hell. My husband was laid off, the only job I could find was at United Airlines and it took me more than a year to find that. We went for a year with no health insurance whatsoever. Right after I was hired at united, my mother got sick with lung cancer and died. I couldn't be with her as much as I wanted because I would have lost my job and our insurance. Ironically after she died, they gave me 3 days off, they wouldn't give to me to be with her before she died.

And my supervisor couldn't understand why I wouldn't just quit my job to be with my mother...thank God I didn't.

We needed that insurance as my husband developed colon cancer. He's okay now, thank the lord. I took ONE trip with my flight benefits, to Japan for 10 days. I would have stayed longer had I known that as soon as I got back, they would close the office and send our jobs to India. Fortunately, my husband was rehired back at Boeing 4 days before he would have lost his seniority. Unfortunately, we lost his mother at that time and right after that I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

During the 3 years that my husband was laid off, we looked at emigrating to other countries, I mean, why not, what was there for us here. Guess what? NONE of them would take us. We didn't have doctorates, we weren't retired...we were over 40, we didn't fit the bill for any of the countries we looked into emigrating to.

Ironic, isn't it, that our country takes in more immigrants legally than all the other nations combined and we aren't welcome in their country's.

 

[Maple]

" I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it."
-- Benjamin Franklin, November 1776

Just maybe, if the poor were taxed more heavily than the wealthy, it would encourage them to better their position in life so that they could avoid paying so much in taxes.
The government frequently taxes things to discourage it. Things like tobacco and alcohol come to mind. The cap and trade will be a tax to discourage certain types of energy usage the government doesn't want.

I think that we should tax the poor too, so they see how it feels to be taxed and then maybe they won't be jumping on that band wagon that wants to raise taxes on everyone who pays them. Actually, I am for a fair 10% tax on everyone. Either that or a consumption tax.

 

[DavidS]

What some of you right-wing idiots don't understand - is that the POOR people of America actually DO WORK! Many of them hold down two jobs that both pay minimum wage and work about 18-20 hours a day. As such, many of them never graduated high school, never even thought about college and have absolutely no hope of ever getting a full time job in an office. They do manual labor -- construction, fast food chains, etc.

You people think that the poor are lazy. They're not. They just don't have friends in high places that allow them to move up, or maybe they've made mistakes in their lives that haven't allowed them to move up in their career. Maybe they're not motivated. Maybe they're fat and overweight and have terrible self confidence problems.

Maybe, just maybe if we didn't have poor people doing the grunt work of our society, the rich people wouldn't have them to step on and they'd actually have to do the fucking grunt work themselves.

And you want to TAX them more??

If I were president, my tax brackets would be like this:

If you make a GROSS of $30,000 per year or under, you pay nothing in taxes. That's right. NOTHING. No payroll taxes, no income taxes.

From $30,000 - $45,000 GROSS - 15%
$45,000 - $60,000 GROSS - 25%
$60,000 - $100,000 - 35%
$100,000 - $250,000 - 40%
$250,000 - $1,000,000 - 45%
$1,000,000 - 50%

 

[Againsheila]

All those jobs in social services, etc, at four or ten or twenty times what that poor person makes --- All of these people are P L O Ps : People Living Off the Poor!

Private sector jobs like Check into Cash, and so on...

Everyone that works at Walmart, anyone who works at a food Bank, anyone who works at a church, and so on.... The POOR are the reason many have jobs and make a good living!

Most of the people at our foodbank are volunteers. I volunteer to give out lunches at a church every Monday to the homeless. The community supper at the church is also staffed by volunteers....Next pathetic excuse?????

I said WORK, not volunteer, and because I am familiar with the system and know people with PAID jobs at "charitable organizations," including food banks. I know the difference.

However, you are to be congratulated on having such a nice and secure life that you can VOLUNTEER your time to those you seem to consider less than you. Must be nice for those there "begging" a meal for self or family to be blessed with someone squinting down their upraised nose at them.

Perhaps you could put up a sign for the VOLUNTEERS: "God loves a cheerful giver."

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written: "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever."[a] 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

2 Cor. 6 - 15.

At our local foodbank, the only paid person in the manager, all others are volunteers.

I have never said anyone was "less than me".. EVER!!!!

I don't live in their world, that doesn't make them less than me or me less than them. I don't live in your world either.

I volunteer my time for two reasons, I have the time and it's fun. I enjoy the conversations with the homeless, some of them enjoy the conversations with us. One of them I have gone out of my way to help when he was sick, I picked him up and took him to a hotel and gave him a care package, this from me, I didn't have to, I wanted to. How did I know he was sick? I called him when he didn't show up to get the free lunch. He's a regular. If I didn't know my husband would kill me, given we have two homeless young men living here right now, I would have brought him home.

I also know, that it's mostly do to luck that I am not in their position. I think that goes for ALL of us. I was raised in a good family, I can fall back on them when I have to, these people don't have that. Many of them have worked hard most of their lives, only to be laid off and have no where to go when the money ran out. A few of them are from New Orleans, brought here by the government after Katrina. One of them has a house down there but he's going through hell trying to get it back. Seems the government is trying to take it from him. He gets a job and saves his money so he can go back to New Orleans every few months for the court proceedings. He doesn't make enough money to pay for an apartment AND the trips back to New Orleans and there are no jobs for him in New Orleans.


I'm sure you could volunteer your time too, if you wanted to. Me I have always volunteered my time, even as a kid. I went door to door collecting for the March of Dimes. I went on the March of Dimes walk a thon. Interesting fact, when I went on the March of Dimes, I collected more money than anyone in the area. I suspect it's either because I worked harder or because I didn't take anything out of the collections as some do. I was also the youngest, being only 16 at the time.

When my kids were little, I volunteered in the schools, I served on committees. I joined PAVE (Parents are Vital in Education) I got training and volunteered to help other parents of special needs kids deal with the public school system.

I belong to a sorority where we volunteer our time to fund raise for cancer research. Our Pink Ribbon Bazaar is in Nov...I'm trying to get my friends to rent a table and sell their crafts.

When Center Stage does their productions at the Knudsen theater, I volunteer, I get to see the plays for free.

As for the church, it isn't even mine, it's my friends. She started volunteering on Mondays with her husband and then asked me to join her so her husband could do other things. Not a problem, I enjoy her company...and as I said, the conversations are interesting. Funny though, first time in my life I've attended church weekly and haven't listened to one sermon.

 

[Father Time]

Did anyone give much thought to the ethics involved in this or the practicality?

First off why wouldn't living in poverty be enough of a motivation for the poor to get out of poverty, why would a tax hike be the nudge over the edge?

The premise only makes sense if they're content with living in poverty (without welfare) and if they're content then why should we be using government to tax them so much they have to change? Isn't that abusive?

 

[edthecynic]

How many jobs were you given by a poor person?

Well, every person I ever worked for TOLD me they were poor!

 

[Fatality]

Question is, what are you going to tax from the poor? They're poor, they have nothing to tax.

Unless of course you wish to tax poor people, which will drive them to being unable to afford simple necessities if they cannot already.

That would be like saying lets tax the rich so they will be encouraged to earn more.

(I do hope you're not serious.)

If you knew that if you were going to be taxed 30% if you made less than $40k in income, but only 15% if you made over $40k in income, wouldn't you do your damnedest to earn $40k?

this highlites a certain point, and that is "the poor" are poor by choice.

 

[Mr. Capitalism]

Yay, I love when people don't actually know how taxes work. If you make 200K and someone makes 20K, that first 20K is taxed at the same rate.

 

[Vast LWC]

And your plan is what?, to punish success and reward failure? Tell me how that works out for you when you own your own company. Or, next time you go get your car fixed, only pay them if they fuck your car up worse than it was when you took it in.

Who makes use of more tax dollar funded resources:

a) A minimum wage worker at McDonald's

or

b) A rich guy who makes his money from the stock he owns in various corporations?

Unsurprisingly, the correct answer is b).

Why? Because the corporation that gentleman makes his money off of make use of a larger share of the national infrstructure like Highways, Fire Departments, railroads, the protection of the military, etc, etc.

Now. Which of the following pays more in taxes:

a) A lower-middle class worker making 50k a year?
or
b) A millionaire who makes 300k a year from dividends on long term investments?

Surprisingly, the answer is b).

The 50k a year fellow pays income tax PLUS a 6% payroll tax on his income.
25% + 6% = 31%

The millionaire pays 6% payroll tax only on the first 80k of their income, plus 15% in capital gains tax.
15% + 1.6% = 16.6%

 

[Mr. Capitalism]

Really this brings up a wealth of wonderful options. I can't wait to see the glory of America taxing some college kid at 50% on the 3k he earned over the summer in order to cut taxes on a pro athlete that needs a 5th house with a bedet.

 

[Father Time]

Question is, what are you going to tax from the poor? They're poor, they have nothing to tax.

Unless of course you wish to tax poor people, which will drive them to being unable to afford simple necessities if they cannot already.

That would be like saying lets tax the rich so they will be encouraged to earn more.

(I do hope you're not serious.)

If you knew that if you were going to be taxed 30% if you made less than $40k in income, but only 15% if you made over $40k in income, wouldn't you do your damnedest to earn $40k?

this highlites a certain point, and that is "the poor" are poor by choice.

Yes because people actually want to live in poverty.

 

[Contumacious]

Well, I am not advocating the welfare state, I am just arguing against a regressive income tax structure. Of course rich benefit from a relatively happy healthy and able poor working class who provide them their cheap unskilled labor. So the welfare state may not be totally undesirable to super rich. But its understandable why the average Joe who works 50+ hours a week for his $50000 a year job detests the welfare state.

I concur.

Voters should be required to pay a stiff poll tax.

.

Well if thats how feel you gotta get the 24th Amendment repealed... And of course I might just be delusional but when it comes to a persons ability to participate in their political system I dont believe that wealth should be an obstacle especially for something as basic as voting. And a poll tax challenges such a notion and really only allows "elitists," who Republicans have railed against, to become even more so the main participants in the political process.

The initial Poll Taxes were intended to keep blacks from voting.

In 1964 we didn't have the so-called War On Poverty. If the voting booth continues to be used to drill into our wallets we are doomed.


.

 

[The Rabbi]

You mean, how dare I stand up for the poor?



Ironic, isn't it, that our country takes in more immigrants legally than all the other nations combined and we aren't welcome in their country's.

No, how dare you assume poor people aren't capable and/or willing to work hard and become wealthy.
Your tale of woe suggests that your decision making stinks. But that's irrelevant. Your whole personal experience is irrelevant because that is one story out of hundreds of millions.
We take in more immigrants because we have a tradition to so and because they have contributed more to this society than most of those born here, who would rather sit around and talk about how The Man has victimized them.

 

[Vast LWC]

who would rather sit around and talk about how The Man has victimized them.

Though at the moment, "The Man" is the supposed "socialist, liberal establishment", and the whiners are a bunch of right-wing old people.

 

[The Rabbi]

who would rather sit around and talk about how The Man has victimized them.

Though at the moment, "The Man" is the supposed "socialist, liberal establishment", and the whiners are a bunch of right-wing old people.

There's a world of difference between peole sitting around with nothing and complaining it's someone else's fault and people sitting around with stuff complaining the gov't is trying to take what they do have and prevent them from getting more.

 

[Care4all]

hmmmmmmmm.....who are the 50% in this country that are eligible to vote, who DON'T VOTE? the educated? the entrepreneur? the wealthy? the working class? or the poor?

 

[Vast LWC]

Democrats are generally richer than Republicans.

The whiners on the right are not necessarily "Haves" (as opposed to "Have nots"), by any means.

And they often have been known to complain about illegal immigrants stealing jobs, etc, etc,

or that the liberals have been spending all the country's money, when in fact their own party is responsible for a great majority of the country's debt.

And meanwhile Red States pay less in taxes and receive more in Federal Funding than Blue states.

So, who are the people sitting around with nothing?

Who complaining "it's someone else's fault"?