Why the Choice to Be Childless is Bad for America

[MisterBeale]

...

Why are they "fucked up?"

You have to ask? Do you KNOW any people?

Socratic method, also known as maieutics, method of elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate, is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presumptions. It is a dialectical method, often involving a discussion in which the defense of one point of view is questioned; one participant may lead another to contradict themselves in some way, thus weakening the defender's point. This method is named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates and is introduced by him in Plato's Theaetetus as midwifery (maieutics) because it is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding.
Socratic method - Wikipedia

And most people do not practice this and are too emotional when it comes to relationships and such things.

Most "people" that decide to break up families have either come from dysfunctional homes themselves, or have come from broken homes. They have received that signal from society that it is all right to put their needs ahead of their children's needs, ahead of the families needs.

You nailed it though, folks become "too emotional." That is a luxury you are not allowed once you have children.

If you are listless, unhappy, unfulfilled, YOU DO NOT look outside the marriage for happiness. That is not betraying or cheating on your partner, it is cheating on YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR CHILDREN.

Yet, people do it ALL the time. Lol. So there you go. You just gave a great point as to why people do get divorced and why sometimes it's for the best of everyone involved in the dysfunction.

Okay, so once the woman or man is "unfulfilled" and they go off and cheat, fine, fair enough.

I am with you. That is when I posted, if the person wants custody of the children, they should gets them, b/c, the other person obviously has respect for the family, and the person that cheated doesn't.

Should a mother that cheated still get custody of the children if she is at fault for breaking up the family? I don't think so. That is all I was getting at.

That is where this whole conversation started, isn't it?

I never said there wasn't any situation where there wasn't irreconcilable differences, did I?

 

[ChrisL]

...

You have to ask? Do you KNOW any people?

Socratic method, also known as maieutics, method of elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate, is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presumptions. It is a dialectical method, often involving a discussion in which the defense of one point of view is questioned; one participant may lead another to contradict themselves in some way, thus weakening the defender's point. This method is named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates and is introduced by him in Plato's Theaetetus as midwifery (maieutics) because it is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding.
Socratic method - Wikipedia

And most people do not practice this and are too emotional when it comes to relationships and such things.

Most "people" that decide to break up families have either come from dysfunctional homes themselves, or have come from broken homes. They have received that signal from society that it is all right to put their needs ahead of their children's needs, ahead of the families needs.

You nailed it though, folks become "too emotional." That is a luxury you are not allowed once you have children.

If you are listless, unhappy, unfulfilled, YOU DO NOT look outside the marriage for happiness. That is not betraying or cheating on your partner, it is cheating on YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR CHILDREN.

Yet, people do it ALL the time. Lol. So there you go. You just gave a great point as to why people do get divorced and why sometimes it's for the best of everyone involved in the dysfunction.

Okay, so once the woman or man is "unfulfilled" and they go off and cheat, fine, fair enough.

I am with you. That is when I posted, if the person wants custody of the children, they should gets them, b/c, the other person obviously has respect for the family, and the person that cheated doesn't.

Should a mother that cheated still get custody of the children if she is at fault for breaking up the family? I don't think so. That is all I was getting at.

That is where this whole conversation started, isn't it?

I never said there wasn't any situation where there wasn't irreconcilable differences, did I?

What if they just hate each other?

 

[MisterBeale]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

 

[ChrisL]

This is why people shouldn't jump into marriages. That is so stupid. I never understood those people who have been married multiple, multiple times and never seem to learn any lessons. I think people should live together before they even think about marriage. You don't really know someone unless you live with them and are exposed to their daily habits and quirks.

 

[ChrisL]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

Forcing people to be together for some fucked up sense of morality is sickening. That is NOT freedom.

 

[MisterBeale]

...

Socratic method, also known as maieutics, method of elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate, is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presumptions. It is a dialectical method, often involving a discussion in which the defense of one point of view is questioned; one participant may lead another to contradict themselves in some way, thus weakening the defender's point. This method is named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates and is introduced by him in Plato's Theaetetus as midwifery (maieutics) because it is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding.
Socratic method - Wikipedia

And most people do not practice this and are too emotional when it comes to relationships and such things.

Most "people" that decide to break up families have either come from dysfunctional homes themselves, or have come from broken homes. They have received that signal from society that it is all right to put their needs ahead of their children's needs, ahead of the families needs.

You nailed it though, folks become "too emotional." That is a luxury you are not allowed once you have children.

If you are listless, unhappy, unfulfilled, YOU DO NOT look outside the marriage for happiness. That is not betraying or cheating on your partner, it is cheating on YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR CHILDREN.

Yet, people do it ALL the time. Lol. So there you go. You just gave a great point as to why people do get divorced and why sometimes it's for the best of everyone involved in the dysfunction.

Okay, so once the woman or man is "unfulfilled" and they go off and cheat, fine, fair enough.

I am with you. That is when I posted, if the person wants custody of the children, they should gets them, b/c, the other person obviously has respect for the family, and the person that cheated doesn't.

Should a mother that cheated still get custody of the children if she is at fault for breaking up the family? I don't think so. That is all I was getting at.

That is where this whole conversation started, isn't it?

I never said there wasn't any situation where there wasn't irreconcilable differences, did I?

What if they just hate each other?

Too fucking bad. Smile and pretend to love each other till the kids graduate. Who the hell is the adult here?

Children didn't ask to be born.

 

[ChrisL]

...

And most people do not practice this and are too emotional when it comes to relationships and such things.

Most "people" that decide to break up families have either come from dysfunctional homes themselves, or have come from broken homes. They have received that signal from society that it is all right to put their needs ahead of their children's needs, ahead of the families needs.

You nailed it though, folks become "too emotional." That is a luxury you are not allowed once you have children.

If you are listless, unhappy, unfulfilled, YOU DO NOT look outside the marriage for happiness. That is not betraying or cheating on your partner, it is cheating on YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR CHILDREN.

Yet, people do it ALL the time. Lol. So there you go. You just gave a great point as to why people do get divorced and why sometimes it's for the best of everyone involved in the dysfunction.

Okay, so once the woman or man is "unfulfilled" and they go off and cheat, fine, fair enough.

I am with you. That is when I posted, if the person wants custody of the children, they should gets them, b/c, the other person obviously has respect for the family, and the person that cheated doesn't.

Should a mother that cheated still get custody of the children if she is at fault for breaking up the family? I don't think so. That is all I was getting at.

That is where this whole conversation started, isn't it?

I never said there wasn't any situation where there wasn't irreconcilable differences, did I?

What if they just hate each other?

Too fucking bad. Smile and pretend to love each other till the kids graduate. Who the hell is the adult here?

Children didn't ask to be born.

And children learn that life isn't always fair. That's is life.

 

[Alex.]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

That is phony and sends a very poor message to children about relationships and life in general.

 

[Unkotare]

A sick society is one that would force people who don't like one another to be together. If the parents aren't happy, then the children aren't happy either. Sometimes divorce IS the best solution.

Spoken like an immature individual who is clueless about what I am talking about. Congratulations. Parents will convince themselves of anything to make themselves believe that what they are doing is for the best.

Divorce is never the best solution for the children.

Bull. The kids are better off away from a toxic environment of hatred and fighting, distrust, disrespect. People are fucked up!

Why are they "fucked up?"

You have to ask? Do you KNOW any people?

Socratic method, also known as maieutics, method of elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate, is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presumptions. It is a dialectical method, often involving a discussion in which the defense of one point of view is questioned; one participant may lead another to contradict themselves in some way, thus weakening the defender's point. This method is named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates and is introduced by him in Plato's Theaetetus as midwifery (maieutics) because it is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding.
Socratic method - Wikipedia

..."Wikipedia"

...

 

[Unkotare]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

That is irrational and idiotic.

 

[MisterBeale]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

Forcing people to be together for some fucked up sense of morality is sickening. That is NOT freedom.

Earlier you wanted to know why the psychology of people is fucked up? I'm trying to tell you why sweetheart. Humans were meant to be raised by a loving mother and have the support, encouragement and mentoring of a strong male figure around daily. I studied anthropology and tribal societies, and the family unit. You even even told me yourself. . .

Bull. The kids are better off away from a toxic environment of hatred and fighting, distrust, disrespect. People are fucked up!

How do you think this situation got started in the first place? How do you think this chronic narcissism started? Have you ever seen how bad this situation has gotten in trailer parks and down in the African American projects? It's abyssalmal. Fathers are needed for healthy individuals. Folks that don't have them are selfish narcissistic individuals that think the interests if children come second to the happiness of adults come first? WTF!?, it's terrible.

You are right it is not freedom. If you decide to have a family, to get married, and to have children, YOU GIVE UP FREEDOM. Freedom is over. You have made a sacred oath to something greater than yourself. If you do not understand that, you deserve neither a mate, nor children.

 

[MisterBeale]

...

Most "people" that decide to break up families have either come from dysfunctional homes themselves, or have come from broken homes. They have received that signal from society that it is all right to put their needs ahead of their children's needs, ahead of the families needs.

You nailed it though, folks become "too emotional." That is a luxury you are not allowed once you have children.

If you are listless, unhappy, unfulfilled, YOU DO NOT look outside the marriage for happiness. That is not betraying or cheating on your partner, it is cheating on YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR CHILDREN.

Yet, people do it ALL the time. Lol. So there you go. You just gave a great point as to why people do get divorced and why sometimes it's for the best of everyone involved in the dysfunction.

Okay, so once the woman or man is "unfulfilled" and they go off and cheat, fine, fair enough.

I am with you. That is when I posted, if the person wants custody of the children, they should gets them, b/c, the other person obviously has respect for the family, and the person that cheated doesn't.

Should a mother that cheated still get custody of the children if she is at fault for breaking up the family? I don't think so. That is all I was getting at.

That is where this whole conversation started, isn't it?

I never said there wasn't any situation where there wasn't irreconcilable differences, did I?

What if they just hate each other?

Too fucking bad. Smile and pretend to love each other till the kids graduate. Who the hell is the adult here?

Children didn't ask to be born.

And children learn that life isn't always fair. That's is life.

No, adults learn life isn't always fair. Children learn life isn't always fair in other ways. You don't destroy a kids life just so individual adults can be narcissistic, hedonistic assholes.

What kind of adult puts themselves and their own happiness before a baby? Wow, that is some sort of low life.


In the old days of chivalry it was women and children first. Now it is. . . who ever can get to the life boats first, and if you don't like it? Well. . too bad, life isn't always fair. Fuck it, let the kids drown and starve, as long as we get ours and we're happy, eh?

 

[Alex.]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

Forcing people to be together for some fucked up sense of morality is sickening. That is NOT freedom.

Earlier you wanted to know why the psychology of people is fucked up? I'm trying to tell you why sweetheart. Humans were meant to be raised by a loving mother and have the support, encouragement and mentoring of a strong male figure around daily. I studied anthropology and tribal societies, and the family unit. You even even told me yourself. . .

Bull. The kids are better off away from a toxic environment of hatred and fighting, distrust, disrespect. People are fucked up!

How do you think this situation got started in the first place? How do you think this chronic narcissism started? Have you ever seen how bad this situation has gotten in trailer parks and down in the African American projects? It's abyssalmal. Fathers are needed for healthy individuals. Folks that don't have them are selfish narcissistic individuals that think the interests if children come second to the happiness of adults come first? WTF!?, it's terrible.

You are right it is not freedom. If you decide to have a family, to get married, and to have children, YOU GIVE UP FREEDOM. Freedom is over. You have made a sacred oath to something greater than yourself. If you do not understand that, you deserve neither a mate, nor children.

"Earlier you wanted to know why the psychology of people is fucked up? I'm trying to tell you why sweetheart. Humans were meant to be raised by a loving mother and have the support, encouragement and mentoring of a strong male figure around daily."

Not true.

 

[MisterBeale]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

That is irrational and idiotic.

Wahhh Wahhh. . . Do you need a safe space?

Of course it is rational only if you want a functional and organized society.

If you want to live however you want to live? Just don't have any children, it's as easy as that.

It's pretty clear to me, for some time, who the idiot around here is.

 

[Unkotare]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

That is irrational and idiotic.

..... Do you need a safe space?

...

Because YOU are irrational and idiotic? No, all set, thanks.

 

[MisterBeale]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

Forcing people to be together for some fucked up sense of morality is sickening. That is NOT freedom.

Earlier you wanted to know why the psychology of people is fucked up? I'm trying to tell you why sweetheart. Humans were meant to be reaised by a loving mother and have the support, encourgement and mentoring of a strong male figure around daily. I studied antropology and tribal societies, and the family unit. You even asked. . . .

Unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as those like Chris mentioned, my philosophy is sound. ....

That's not a philosophy, not sound, and not logical.



You are trying to equate "initiating divorce proceedings" and "fault." Doesn't work that way.

Well, naturally, extenuating circumstances like addiction, or abuse not with standing.

However, even in these instances, don't you think the wife and mother should at least first make one attempt to get into therepy/counseling with the father to save the family unit? Every individual only gets one shot in life, only one mother, one father, and one childhood. Don't you think people just give up too easy today? Doesn't everyone just want to have instant gratification and instant easy life?

For instance, is it alright of the mother to just leave if the father gets a debilitating and slowly progressing disease that will make it so she can not be upwardly mobile? Our society values wealth and material items.

If after they marry and have one child, the father gets something like MS, is that now grounds for divorce? What about a severe anxiety or depressive disorder? Those can be the underlying cause to that substance abuse you were talking about. It then becomes very easy for the other parent to just cheat, and then walk out, doesn't it? Is that self centered behavior good for the future self-esteem, and identity of the children, or would it be better to see the one parent help the other though such a time of hardship? What usually happens?

Does the child see the mother and father giving each other unconditional love, no matter what problems arise in the relationship, or do folks bail at the first sign of problems?

That depends on the people involved. This is not an ideal world and people are far from being perfect.

I know it doesn't work that way, I know western society has not constructed the ideal, it is focused on the individual, not the family and society. I was just telling you how it is supposed to work if you want a healthy society instead of a sick one.

No, You weren't .

Yeah I was. ....

No, you were trying to promote your baseless, random musings as if they were "truth." They are not. It seems like the product of an entirely juvenile mind to insist on the validity of such facile superficiality.

Think what you will.

It's not based on superficiality. It's based on who we are as a species.
An Anthropological Approach to Family Studies on JSTOR

Is the Family Universal? - SPIRO - 2009 - American Anthropologist - Wiley Online Library

Power - FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS, MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS

 

[Unkotare]

I do agree that courts are very hesitant about separating a mother from her children, but that is slowly starting to change I think. I see more and more dads with custody and often times even sole custody. The children should go to the person who can care for them the best.

Anyways, nobody should be forced to stay in an unhealthy or unhappy situation against their will. You cannot force people to be good people or even decent people. They are what they are.

Well, that is where we disagree. I think folks SHOULD be forced to stay in unhappy situations against their will.

If the situations make the children happy, that is what is most important. IF everyone is healthy, and they are flourishing, then yeah, they should force people to be good and decent if it is at all possible for the sake of the children.

Forcing people to be together for some fucked up sense of morality is sickening. That is NOT freedom.

Earlier you wanted to know why the psychology of people is fucked up? I'm trying to tell you why sweetheart. Humans were meant to be reaised by a loving mother and have the support, encourgement and mentoring of a strong male figure around daily. I studied antropology and tribal societies, and the family unit. You even asked. . . .

That's not a philosophy, not sound, and not logical.



You are trying to equate "initiating divorce proceedings" and "fault." Doesn't work that way.

That depends on the people involved. This is not an ideal world and people are far from being perfect.

I know it doesn't work that way, I know western society has not constructed the ideal, it is focused on the individual, not the family and society. I was just telling you how it is supposed to work if you want a healthy society instead of a sick one.

No, You weren't .

Yeah I was. ....

No, you were trying to promote your baseless, random musings as if they were "truth." They are not. It seems like the product of an entirely juvenile mind to insist on the validity of such facile superficiality.

Think what you will.

It's not based on superficiality. It's based on who we are as a species.
.....

It's based on the superficial nonsense of a 'thinker' about as deep as a teaspoon,

 

[anotherlife]

.... I think it is a good idea not to have children in the 21st century. ....

That doesn't make sense.

Why doesn't it make sense? It was the agricultural society where every child was an asset, and the more hands, the more harvest you got. Those days are long gone. Or do you mean the huge pressure that exists to get born?

 

[anotherlife]

This is why people shouldn't jump into marriages. That is so stupid. I never understood those people who have been married multiple, multiple times and never seem to learn any lessons. I think people should live together before they even think about marriage. You don't really know someone unless you live with them and are exposed to their daily habits and quirks.

Isn't this why traditional European middle class families, as well as modern Indian families, all work by arranged marriages? Marriage is a family to family affair, and the parents know it better by default, where their children's strengths and weaknesses are. So arranged marriages are more solid, if arranged correctly. Many agencies specialize in this too.

But looks like the modern western middle class is not the traditional middle class, it has different origins, and the average western person takes marriage for a contract, like an exchange of goods and services, not a partnership. So a western marriage is bound to be a hype. I am not Indian or Asian, or any of those races, I am a white European, but I would think twice before marrying a woman who is not arranged.

 

[ChrisL]

This is why people shouldn't jump into marriages. That is so stupid. I never understood those people who have been married multiple, multiple times and never seem to learn any lessons. I think people should live together before they even think about marriage. You don't really know someone unless you live with them and are exposed to their daily habits and quirks.

Isn't this why traditional European middle class families, as well as modern Indian families, all work by arranged marriages? Marriage is a family to family affair, and the parents know it better by default, where their children's strengths and weaknesses are. So arranged marriages are more solid, if arranged correctly. Many agencies specialize in this too.

But looks like the modern western middle class is not the traditional middle class, it has different origins, and the average western person takes marriage for a contract, like an exchange of goods and services, not a partnership. So a western marriage is bound to be a hype. I am not Indian or Asian, or any of those races, I am a white European, but I would think twice before marrying a woman who is not arranged.

Who would want that?