Why is the DOW still going down?

[DiveCon]

It saved the world's capitalist economy after the Great Depression. Since it has a track record of success it might be worth trying again.

then how come so many economists claim it prolonged the depression by 10 years?

 

[Article 15]

the difference here is, the complaints we have are valid
and we complained about Bush doing this very same crap
now, thats consistency

There is nothing valid about his OP.

sure they are valid
the market will react to what it believes is happening
and the record for these kinds of "stimuli" is well known
they dont work

So today or tomorrow when the market has a huge upswing (which is very likely) can I then declare the bill's success?

The point being that a long race isn't decided off the blocks.

I welcome the criticism the right has brought up. I wish Obama hadn't pushed the bill through so hard. It was something that could have been discussed further and made leaner and meaner.

That said, this OP was an effort to troll/score cheap political points and not to open up a real discussion or present any valid points.

 

[DiveCon]

There is nothing valid about his OP.

sure they are valid
the market will react to what it believes is happening
and the record for these kinds of "stimuli" is well known
they dont work

So today or tomorrow when the market has a huge upswing (which is very likely) can I then declare the bill's success?

The point being that a long race isn't decided off the blocks.

I welcome the criticism the right has brought up. I wish Obama hadn't pushed the bill through so hard. It was something that could have been discussed further and made leaner and meaner.

That said, this OP was an effort to troll/score cheap political points and not to open up a real discussion or present any valid points.

of course day to day swings wont be an indicator

but the general trends are not looking good


and that part is just the half of it
there are things in this bill that have NOTHING to do with stimulus
nearly 2/3rds of it
its worse than that crap Bush got pushed through

 

[Article 15]

sure they are valid
the market will react to what it believes is happening
and the record for these kinds of "stimuli" is well known
they dont work

So today or tomorrow when the market has a huge upswing (which is very likely) can I then declare the bill's success?

The point being that a long race isn't decided off the blocks.

I welcome the criticism the right has brought up. I wish Obama hadn't pushed the bill through so hard. It was something that could have been discussed further and made leaner and meaner.

That said, this OP was an effort to troll/score cheap political points and not to open up a real discussion or present any valid points.

of course day to day swings wont be an indicator

but the general trends are not looking good


and that part is just the half of it
there are things in this bill that have NOTHING to do with stimulus
nearly 2/3rds of it
its worse than that crap Bush got pushed through

The trends haven't looked good since the crash.

What parts of the spending would you say have nothing do do with stimulating the economy?

I think you might have missed my earlier question about Bush's stimuli ... were they only rebate checks and tax breaks?

 

[Diuretic]

It saved the world's capitalist economy after the Great Depression. Since it has a track record of success it might be worth trying again.

then how come so many economists claim it prolonged the depression by 10 years?

Could be one of several reasons.

1. They're wrong.
2. They have been trained in monetarist economics and don't understand or simply reject Keynesian economics.
3. They're wrong. Oh I already wrote that

Seriously though, since the late 1960s many students of economics have been exposed to monetarist principles. Friedman and the monetarists of the so-called Chicago School started to attack Keynes back then. Is it any surprise that today those economists have no idea about Keynesian economics or if they do it's only how bad it was, what a failure it was?

Why did Keynes feature so large in Bretton Woods if he was so wrong? Why, in the latter part of WWII, would the US invite Keynes to partake in the conference that sought to reconstruct the West's financial and economic system in the wake of a world war? Do you think they invited him because he was wrong?

 

[DiveCon]

So today or tomorrow when the market has a huge upswing (which is very likely) can I then declare the bill's success?

The point being that a long race isn't decided off the blocks.

I welcome the criticism the right has brought up. I wish Obama hadn't pushed the bill through so hard. It was something that could have been discussed further and made leaner and meaner.

That said, this OP was an effort to troll/score cheap political points and not to open up a real discussion or present any valid points.

of course day to day swings wont be an indicator

but the general trends are not looking good


and that part is just the half of it
there are things in this bill that have NOTHING to do with stimulus
nearly 2/3rds of it
its worse than that crap Bush got pushed through

The trends haven't looked good since the crash.

What parts of the spending would you say have nothing do do with stimulating the economy?

I think you might have missed my earlier question about Bush's stimuli ... were they only rebate checks and tax breaks?

your talking about his early tax cuts and credits
i'm talking about that monstrosity that was passed and signed last oct

 

[DiveCon]

It saved the world's capitalist economy after the Great Depression. Since it has a track record of success it might be worth trying again.

then how come so many economists claim it prolonged the depression by 10 years?

Could be one of several reasons.

1. They're wrong.
2. They have been trained in monetarist economics and don't understand or simply reject Keynesian economics.
3. They're wrong. Oh I already wrote that

Seriously though, since the late 1960s many students of economics have been exposed to monetarist principles. Friedman and the monetarists of the so-called Chicago School started to attack Keynes back then. Is it any surprise that today those economists have no idea about Keynesian economics or if they do it's only how bad it was, what a failure it was?

Why did Keynes feature so large in Bretton Woods if he was so wrong? Why, in the latter part of WWII, would the US invite Keynes to partake in the conference that sought to reconstruct the West's financial and economic system in the wake of a world war? Do you think they invited him because he was wrong?

on points 1 and 3 you are wrong
LOL

actually, on all 3
the reason FDR had that guy involved was FDR did the things that didnt work to begin with
LOL

 

[Article 15]

of course day to day swings wont be an indicator

but the general trends are not looking good


and that part is just the half of it
there are things in this bill that have NOTHING to do with stimulus
nearly 2/3rds of it
its worse than that crap Bush got pushed through

The trends haven't looked good since the crash.

What parts of the spending would you say have nothing do do with stimulating the economy?

I think you might have missed my earlier question about Bush's stimuli ... were they only rebate checks and tax breaks?

your talking about his early tax cuts and credits
i'm talking about that monstrosity that was passed and signed last oct

Right ... we are talking about stimulus bills. What was passed in October was the bank bailout.

They are two different things.

 

[editec]

I don't think so, Wall Street is punishing Obama in kind for not saying what they want him to say.

Besides, I'm not a Democrat and I have already disagreed with Obama several times. However, Republicans and Wall Street would all be smiling and laughing joyfully if this was all tax cuts. So don't give me that bullshit.

Wall Street is punishing Obama ?

People are losing money on purpose just to make Obama look bad ?

Not sure i follow you there ........

This is how the liberal brain works. Don't try to understand it.

Let's just say we certainly don't expect YOU to understand it.

When the markets go down under a Republican, it is the republicans fault, but when it goes down under Obama its the markets fault.

The markets went down, under a Republican POTUS, because the goofy policies of the supply-siders and the free traders, and the fuck the working class, I got mine (ers) finally come to fruition.

These people literally live in a fantasy world.

Yes, and as I recall, according to idiots like you, we lived in a fanstasy world when we kept telling folks that Main Street was broke and that Wall Street was a gigantic bubble that was bound to burst, too.

Remember these are the same people who told us the laws of supply and demand don't work.

No, actually we reminded you that supply side economics policy was so overboard that the average working people in the USA were going broke. And typically, for pointing that out, we were called envious losers and socialists.

I suppose I shouldn't think it odd that you choose to forget that.

So why are we surprised they do not understand the effects of dumbing liquidity on the market at the wrong time, when a recovery is already under way

You see a recovery on the way? Define "on the way", please.

Thats why they do not get it will cause stagflation.

Stagflation is a definite possibility in our future, but the stimulus won't be the primary cause of that if it kicks in.

A rapid increase in the price of oil, the collapse of the Petro dollar, a decision by the rest of the world not to purchase our debt, all those things could easily spark off inflation especially in the cost of imported goods. On that we can probably agree.

But stagflation (at least the last time it reared it ugly head) happened at a time when employment was high.

That is what this bill will do, because far to much of it, will not even start to have an effect for a year or more, when the market will already be recovering, and all they will be doing is causing Inflationary pressure, and tighter credit markets.

I rather doubt we're going to have to worry about inflation as long as a half million people are losing their jobs every month, the cost of oil stays low and the rest of the world is also in a depression.

Now the dollar might very well collapse entirely...but that's not inflation, that's disaster of a whole different zip code.

China and Japan, the 2 biggest buyers of our Debt, are now them selves running Deficits, and offer bonds to sell their Debt on the market, so they will not by buying this new Debt of ours.

That is, I suspect a valid concern.

Last I heard China is holding a trillion dollars worth of our paper, and Japan about a half trillion. They're not all that healthy either, so they might now be able to buy our paper if the americans can no longer buy their crap.

Obama will have to print this money, anyone who does not believe that, does not have a clue what is going on here.

He can print me some, if he wants. I'm not proud.

 

[Diuretic]

then how come so many economists claim it prolonged the depression by 10 years?

Could be one of several reasons.

1. They're wrong.
2. They have been trained in monetarist economics and don't understand or simply reject Keynesian economics.
3. They're wrong. Oh I already wrote that

Seriously though, since the late 1960s many students of economics have been exposed to monetarist principles. Friedman and the monetarists of the so-called Chicago School started to attack Keynes back then. Is it any surprise that today those economists have no idea about Keynesian economics or if they do it's only how bad it was, what a failure it was?

Why did Keynes feature so large in Bretton Woods if he was so wrong? Why, in the latter part of WWII, would the US invite Keynes to partake in the conference that sought to reconstruct the West's financial and economic system in the wake of a world war? Do you think they invited him because he was wrong?

on points 1 and 3 you are wrong
LOL

actually, on all 3
the reason FDR had that guy involved was FDR did the things that didnt work to begin with
LOL

Here's something amusing

Prove it

 

[editec]

I woke up this morning and don't have any more money that I had 8 hours ago.

Hence it is not at all to premature to declare Obama's stimulus package a total failure.

I wonder how far down America needs to go before the pain of the depression wrings out this obsessional partisanship that had torn this nation asunder.

Five years? Ten? A generation?

Perhaps if we could convince the Japanese to Bomb Pearl Harbor we could come together again as a people.

 

[Article 15]

I woke up this morning and don't have any more money that I had 8 hours ago.

Hence it is not at all to premature to declare Obama's stimulus package a total failure.

I wonder how far down America needs to go before the pain of the depression wrings out this obsessional partisanship that had torn this nation asunder.

Five years? Ten? A generation?

Perhaps if we could convince the Japanese to Bomb Pearl Harbor we could come together again as a people.

And we could wipe that half a trillion we owe them off the books!

 

[Diuretic]

I woke up this morning and don't have any more money that I had 8 hours ago.

Hence it is not at all to premature to declare Obama's stimulus package a total failure.

I wonder how far down America needs to go before the pain of the depression wrings out this obsessional partisanship that had torn this nation asunder.

Five years? Ten? A generation?

Perhaps if we could convince the Japanese to Bomb Pearl Harbor we could come together again as a people.

I hate to be insenstive but what the hell. 9/11 didn't do it because of the outright stupidity of BushCheney in the aftermath. Don't wish for something like it again, even with ObamaBiden.

And those who are lining up to attack me - shove it. Oh okay then, feel free to make arseholes of yourselves, I'll be happy tp help.

 

[Old Rocks]

I woke up this morning and don't have any more money that I had 8 hours ago.

Hence it is not at all to premature to declare Obama's stimulus package a total failure.

I wonder how far down America needs to go before the pain of the depression wrings out this obsessional partisanship that had torn this nation asunder.

Five years? Ten? A generation?

Perhaps if we could convince the Japanese to Bomb Pearl Harbor we could come together again as a people.

I hate to be insenstive but what the hell. 9/11 didn't do it because of the outright stupidity of BushCheney in the aftermath. Don't wish for something like it again, even with ObamaBiden.

And those who are lining up to attack me - shove it. Oh okay then, feel free to make arseholes of yourselves, I'll be happy tp help.

No President has ever been presented with an oppertunity equal to that which was presented to Bush by 9-11. He had the full support of the nation and the world. By handling that crisis in a intelligent manner, he could have further cemented old alliances, and created new ones.

At that point, he could have stated that we needed to close the southern border for our security, and the nation would have backed him almost one hundred percent. The majority of the illegals in this nation have arrived since 9-11.

Bush could have declared that energy independence was a matter of national security, and by now, we would be exporting alternative energy machinery to the rest of the world. And we would not be been bleeding financially for eight more years to fuel our transportation.

Bush could have stated that we would have to raise taxes to keep our economy stable in this crisis. Had he done that, we would not have this crushing foreign debt, and the economic debacle that we are currently suffering would have been averted.

Bush could well have been remembered as one of the great ones. Instead, he will go down in history as the very example of incompetance and arrogance. Miserable failure personified.

 

[editec]

I woke up this morning and don't have any more money that I had 8 hours ago.

Hence it is not at all to premature to declare Obama's stimulus package a total failure.

I wonder how far down America needs to go before the pain of the depression wrings out this obsessional partisanship that had torn this nation asunder.

Five years? Ten? A generation?

Perhaps if we could convince the Japanese to Bomb Pearl Harbor we could come together again as a people.

I'm not

I hate to be insenstive but what the hell. 9/11 didn't do it because of the outright stupidity of BushCheney in the aftermath. Don't wish for something like it again, even with ObamaBiden.

And those who are lining up to attack me - shove it. Oh okay then, feel free to make arseholes of yourselves, I'll be happy tp help.

I'm not attacking you.

I'm just pointing out that it's a rather goofy expectation that this stimulus plan, now all of one day old, to have overcome the toxic effects of nearly 40 years of bad economic policies.

We get you don't get Kensyian economic theory.

We get you think the solution to every economic woe is to give the rich more money.

We get that you think every worker is simply expendable, and the purpose of government is to protect the wealthy at all cost and fuck the workers at every turn.

We EVEN understand that there are times when an economy needs to juice up the supply side.

What we cannot understand is why you cannot understand that in a consumer driven economy the equasion has more than a supply side.

 

[KMAN]

Hey KMAN, don't let your partisan hackery show a little more. I mean hell, Obama could cure Cancer himself at this point, fix the Economy, bring about world peace and you'd still say he's a horrible President.

This is such a stupid question asked upon your part but not surprised.

Great repsponse... That added a lot to this conversation... LOL

 

[KMAN]

Or he could drag this country down to a 3rd rate socialist shithole and you'll still say he's a great President.

Oh wait .........

I don't think so, Wall Street is punishing Obama in kind for not saying what they want him to say.

Besides, I'm not a Democrat and I have already disagreed with Obama several times. However, Republicans and Wall Street would all be smiling and laughing joyfully if this was all tax cuts. So don't give me that bullshit.

Hey dumbass... You do know that when wall street suffers everyone's 401k suffers too right???? It's not just Republicans... Just FYI - A 401k plan is a retirement plan that even some Democrats have.


What an idiot....

 

[DiveCon]

Could be one of several reasons.

1. They're wrong.
2. They have been trained in monetarist economics and don't understand or simply reject Keynesian economics.
3. They're wrong. Oh I already wrote that

Seriously though, since the late 1960s many students of economics have been exposed to monetarist principles. Friedman and the monetarists of the so-called Chicago School started to attack Keynes back then. Is it any surprise that today those economists have no idea about Keynesian economics or if they do it's only how bad it was, what a failure it was?

Why did Keynes feature so large in Bretton Woods if he was so wrong? Why, in the latter part of WWII, would the US invite Keynes to partake in the conference that sought to reconstruct the West's financial and economic system in the wake of a world war? Do you think they invited him because he was wrong?

on points 1 and 3 you are wrong
LOL

actually, on all 3
the reason FDR had that guy involved was FDR did the things that didnt work to begin with
LOL

Here's something amusing

Prove it

it already has been, but you deny it
why should i make an attempt to do what i already know the results of

 

[editec]

Or he could drag this country down to a 3rd rate socialist shithole and you'll still say he's a great President.

Oh wait .........

I don't think so, Wall Street is punishing Obama in kind for not saying what they want him to say.

Besides, I'm not a Democrat and I have already disagreed with Obama several times. However, Republicans and Wall Street would all be smiling and laughing joyfully if this was all tax cuts. So don't give me that bullshit.

Hey dumbass... You do know that when wall street suffers everyone's 401k suffers too right???? It's not just Republicans... Just FYI - A 401k plan is a retirement plan that even some Democrats have.


What an idiot....

This economic downturn has hurt everyone.

And maybe that the best thing about it.

If nothing else it shows, to those willing to see, that IF YOUR NEIGHORS ARE GETTING POORER, SO ARE YOU!

This economy is in the crapper because working people are too poor to sustain it, as they ALWAYS do, from the bottom on the heap.

If you're a well off person who'd been playing the market and were doing well and thinking that the smuchk who brings you coffee's pain was not inevitably going to become your problem to?

Well now you know that you, much like they, are a member of a SOCIETY and your wealth and health and their are both dependent on that SOCIETY's health.

We're not worker bees, but we're not cockroaches, either.

We're human beings and our domination of this planet, and all those toys and happy circumstances SOME OF YOU NITWITS THINK YOU HAVE BECAUSE OF YOU SUPERIOR INTLLIGENCE OR TALENTS don't mean quite so much to your overall well being as you thought they did.

History is going make liberal democrats who understand the value of a mix economy of some of you yet, I'll wager.

 

[Modbert]

Great repsponse... That added a lot to this conversation... LOL

Just the same amount your threads add to this board.