Why I dont post here

[Tech_Esq]

Agreed.

The deification of the Floundering Fathers by we moderns.

They forged an incredibile document for their time, given the problems they had to ignore (like slavery), but their time passed, as they knew it would.

Fortunely for us, they had the foresight to make it possible for future generations to interpret that document in ways that made it possible for this nation to change with changing conditions. They built into that remarkable document the possibility of amending it as needed, too.

It is impossible to write a set of laws (or a social contract, if you will) for all time, folks.

They knew that.

Apparently some of us want to believe that is not the case.

Some of us truly want to believe that one can simply impose one's interpretation as the "strict" interpretation of their exact meaning, and dismiss everyone else's interpretations of that document as irrelevant and an imposition of our misguided values upon their perfect document

Rather reminds me of biblical scholars who insist that they -- and they alone! -- have a handle on the mind of God.

The world belongs to the living, folks.

I would suggest you read the Constitution again. You do the "Floundering" fathers an injustice by saying they ignored slavery. There were many compromises made in the Constitution to both get it passed and to build real limits into the continuance of slavery. It's a cheap shot 200 years and a civil war later to second guess what they did.

I agree with your second point.

I agree with your third point.

I think it is better to base a judicial opinion on something rather than nothing. You should read Judge Bork's The Tempting Of America for insight into what it really means to decide cases as an originalist or strict constuctionist I think you'll find it isn't exactly what you think it is. Some people give it really bad press because they have a legislative agenda they are trying to push through the courts and originalists would be an impediment to that. I think it is not legitimate to push a legislative agenda in the courts.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I’m gonna try to simplify, editec:

1) – The partition of Palestine was a miserable failure. There will never be a palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza because the right to live in Palestine is the non-negotiable core of the palestinian national identity. No people can renounce to the defining factor of its own natinal identity. Forget it.

2) – Palestinians would like to rule a unitary state in Palestine like south african blacks rule their country, by simple majority. They’d like to exercise unrestricted self determination in their own homeland, I won’t argue against facts. But this is not part of their national identity. A limited sovereignty and self determination under international oversight is open for negotiation because it does not compromise their national identity.

But it’s imperative that the world community does its part by pressuring Israel to desegregate and, at the same time, offering total protection to the jewish people. And don’t fool yourself: under intense international pressure the jewish racial dictatorship wouldn’t last long. Intense pressure must be put on the palestinians too, so they come to terms with the fact they will enjoy limited sovereignty in a single state.

The palestinian people will never be convinced to renounce to their historical homeland but they can be convinced to share sovereignty over the land with the jewish people.

If you think this is starry-eyed idealism you’re arguing against facts. This is a reality in South Africa now. International pressure and much less international guarantees managed to desegregate the country.

But as I said the biggest obstacle continues to be the lack of political will and the pessimism displayed by so many people. A chinese proverb immediately comes to mind:

If you think you’re gonna fail, you failed before you start.

Pie in the sky. You can compare Israel to South Africa until Mt. Everest is a mere hillock, but you will never get the world to isolate Israel like they did SA. Despite the rhetoric (and I'm not entirely unsympathetic to it) that the Palestinians are in an apartheid situation, it just ain't the same. Jews are not Boers and they don't have the same history. And the western world simply will not put the Jews through another period of privation on purpose.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Tech_Esq
Loose confederation of states? We are talking about the US Constitution right? You don't think we are still living under the Articles of Confederation do you?

The social contract in the US was formed by by-passing the states by constitutional convention. The Constitution was ratified by the people of the states not by the states. If you don't understand the difference you need to get educated.

I think some of the Articles of Confederation (“each state is free, independent, sovereign etc..etc...) found their way into the Constitution (“the powers... are reserved to the states). The early US fits the definition of a loose Confederation quite well. You admited it yourself in a previous post:

I clearly understand that our Founders were, by in large, Deists. But, as you know while the Constitution was the foundation of our federal statutory laws, it was not the foundation of the laws in effect in the states at the time.

But the point is that there is a substantial part of state law that you can trace directly back to a time when equity was far more ecclesiastical in its reasoning than today.

Deist/Secular foundation at the federal level + ecclesiastical foundation at the state level = loose confederation.

Political union in which member states enjoy great autonomy (establish official religions, etc...) and can even join and leave it at will (10th ammendment according to the South) = loose confederation.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Tech_Esp
"theocratic traits?" Really? Go ahead and call out names. I'm as irreligious as the next guy, so I wanna know who has a State government with theocratic tendencies chicken little.

Massachussets, 1830. Not only theocratic tendencies but a full-blown state religion.

But I’m glad to see you agree with my previous statements:

I think regional autonomy is a good thing but not to the point of compromising the core values of a modern representative republic.

A state with theocratic traits within a secular federation is a political monstruosity that defies description.

PS: There are dozens of theocratic leftovers and additions as Anguille noted created by federal and state governments/legilative branch. The use of religious books in courts just to remain within the confines of this debate.

 

[José]

In 1776, the american national identity was not crystalised yet. People, the founders included, took great pride in their respective states and considered themselves Virginians, etc... first. In hindsight, the creation of a descentralised confederation was a historical mistake the framers couldn’t have escaped from.

But the nascent american national identity, that wouldn’t accept the partition of America just like palestinians can’t accept the partition of their homeland, eventually collided with the confederated political union created by the framers and the result was a fratricide war that claimed the lives of 600.000 (?) americans.

The so-called War Between the States is a living proof that a nation state created from autonomous units with separated local identities and organised as a confederate state is often a recipe for civil war.

As I said, regional autonomy is a good thing but in early America it was too much of a good thing.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Tech_Esq
Jose,

You are clearly a bonehead, but I'm a little bored so I'll play with you tonight. More because I like debating Constitutional issues than because I think your sword is sharp.

I think it is fine to propose Constitutional changes and support them being done just as the founders proposed they be done. By super majority in each house of Congress, signature by the President and ratification by 3/4 of the states. Not by skulking up an undemocratic back alley.

Mount Sinai is not in Virginia, you must have your stories crossed.

I didn't have you in mind when I wrote "And here comes the resident patriots...", Tech. Lighten up a bit.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Tech_Esq
Pie in the sky. You can compare Israel to South Africa until Mt. Everest is a mere hillock, but you will never get the world to isolate Israel like they did SA. Despite the rhetoric (and I'm not entirely unsympathetic to it) that the Palestinians are in an apartheid situation, it just ain't the same. Jews are not Boers and they don't have the same history. And the western world simply will not put the Jews through another period of privation on purpose.

OK.

But what happens when palestinians can't get over the loss of their homeland, Israel doesn't accept their right to live in Western Palestine and the West refuses to pressure both sides to share the land?

You have an endless war, you have scores of arab young men willing to attack the West, you have the US retaliating and arab/muslim countries building nuclear deterrences and eventually you have a worldwide nuclear conflagration.

 

[editec]

I would suggest you read the Constitution again. You do the "Floundering" fathers an injustice by saying they ignored slavery. There were many compromises made in the Constitution to both get it passed and to build real limits into the continuance of slavery. It's a cheap shot 200 years and a civil war later to second guess what they did.

Probably somewhat inflammatory, I'll admit. My flippent way of blowing off those whoimagine the FF shat marble and that the Consitution was the best thing written since the time of Moses, you know?

But they knew that they were passing off the problem to the following generations. EvenEdmund Randolf knew that slavery was going to be a problem down the line, but he ALSO knew that the Constitution (which he refused at first to sign onto at the convention) was at best a compromise to slavery that would blow up eventually

Their compromises were putting off the problem and they all KNEW it.

I think it is better to base a judicial opinion on something rather than nothing. You should read Judge Bork's The Tempting Of America for insight into what it really means to decide cases as an originalist or strict constuctionist I think you'll find it isn't exactly what you think it is. Some people give it really bad press because they have a legislative agenda they are trying to push through the courts and originalists would be an impediment to that. I think it is not legitimate to push a legislative agenda in the courts.

I think I'd do better if you encapsulated the jist of the difference between originalist or strict constuctionist for me, TE.

I have little doubt I don't get it, but I have no doubt that there's so many books and so little time that I won't be reading Bork's book.

I have confidence you can address Borks themes for we laymen.

Educate me, please, if you have time.

I'm sure others here would appreciate your thoughts and Borks, too.

Jose,

I don't think you're a starry-eyed idealist. Of course, I know that the lands ceded to the PA are not a viable land and something MUST be done about that.

I just can't see how we get from where we are NOW, to a single state solution.

I can't imagine either the Israelis OR the Palestinians buying into that internationalization of that land NOW.

 

[Shogun]

I just can't see how we get from where we are NOW, to a single state solution.

neither could all those white folk for the first 75% of our nations history. I can tell you how we WONT see an isreal where democrcy and equality mean more than racism however.... That is, if you dont mind favoring one side while whipping out the scarlet A branding iron.

 

[Charles_Main]

Why do you even keep up the charade of Calling it Israel Shog? I mean really if you got your single state solution it would not be Israel anymore, and the Jews would be driven out and the Palestinians would own it all.

So much for wanting equality among the races. A single state solution is just a nice way of saying you want Israel destroyed. THAT will be the outcome. Have you ever even been to Israel or the territories? I have, and I also heard many stories about it from my mother. I am confident I am right about what would happen if a single state solution was ever implemented. neither side wants to share with the other. Despite what you believe.

That is why I favor a 2 state solution along the 67 Borders. As does the leaders of both sides.

 

[editec]

I just can't see how we get from where we are NOW, to a single state solution.

neither could all those white folk for the first 75% of our nations history. I can tell you how we WONT see an isreal where democrcy and equality mean more than racism however.... That is, if you dont mind favoring one side while whipping out the scarlet A branding iron.

Ouch!

Well...we eventually did figure it out, thanks to the hot heads who attacked US bases and armories...and all it took was about 600,000 lives to solve that.

If you can get the majority of Palestinians and Israeli to request international troops, and the complete abandonment of both their governments, I'll sign up for that solution.

If you cannot, I think that would be even more disasterous for all concerned than the mess it is now.

 

[José]

Editec, an international intervention that ends up increasing the violence will undoubtedly lead to MORE anti-americanism in the Middle East, MORE american invasions, etc... etc... . This is self evident even though I don’t share your pessimism.

Anyway let me make a comparison to show you how I feel:

During the thirties many voices around the world tried to alert the world community about what was going on in Germany:

“That guy is not arming Germany to the teeth to improve its military parades!! The world must intervene while it still can!!”

But the Chamberlains of the world had the last word.

I feel as frustrated as those guys in the thirties...

Regardless of how many arab/muslim countries the US decides to invade and effectuate regime change, the palestinian people will continue to fight and die for their homeland. I have a feeling that this open wound in Palestine will still plunge the world into a much more serious international crisis than the one we’re going through now but people like me are solemnly ignored by the world community.

So all I can do is lead my own life and hope for the best.

 

[José]

Originally posted by editec
Ouch!

Well...we eventually did figure it out, thanks to the hot heads who attacked US bases and armories...and all it took was about 600,000 lives to solve that.

If you can get the majority of Palestinians and Israeli to request international troops, and the complete abandonment of both their governments, I'll sign up for that solution.

If you cannot, I think that would be even more disasterous for all concerned than the mess it is now.

The south african government never “willingly agreed” to desegregate South Africa, editec. Mandela would still be in jail if the West decided to wait for that inspiring moment.

Pretoria was "politely" strongarmed into submission and finally accepted majority rule under enormous pressure that turned South Africa into an international pariah. I’d love to see Palestine’s desegregation following a different, less confrontational course but your assertion that in order to intervene succesfully the world must wait for the ethnocratic state to come to its senses, see the wrong of its way and agree to desegregate is simply not true.

Ironically, the whole purpose of an international protectorate would be THE PROTECTION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE, who would become a minority group in Western Palestine. It’s a reasonable answer to the justified fears and the jewish paranoia over security. If the jewish people deem the presence of international troops unnecesary the world community would be more than happy to simply follow the whole democratisation process at a distance.

Besides, the jewish government and the Palestinian Authority would not disapear into thin air. Their members, if elected, would integrate the new political entity, composed by jews and arabs, that would run Palestine under international supersivion.

And trust me, editec, it won’t take a lot of convincing to make palestinians accept the dismantlement of the PA. Even though the palestinian people would have to agree with shared sovereignty under a multinational protectorate, they would enjoy MUCH MORE sovereignty than they do now under israeli occupation and a “government” who can’t even collect the garbage without israeli authorisation..

So the palestinian people can be convinced to abandon/dismantle the Palestinian Authority. The only thing they will never abandon is their right to live in their homeland.

 

[editec]

Editec, an international intervention that ends up increasing the violence will undoubtedly lead to MORE anti-americanism in the Middle East, MORE american invasions, etc... etc... . This is self evident even though I don’t share your pessimism.

Does that mean you think imposing a single state solution by force of arms upon Isreal and the Palestinians would work?

Anyway let me make a comparison to show you how I feel:

During the thirties many voices around the world tried to alert the world community about what was going on in Germany:

“That guy is not arming Germany to the teeth to improve its military parades!! The world must intervene while it still can!!”

But the Chamberlains of the world had the last word.

I feel as frustrated as those guys in the thirties...

Okay.

Regardless of how many arab/muslim countries the US decides to invade and effectuate regime change, the palestinian people will continue to fight and die for their homeland. I have a feeling that this open wound in Palestine will still plunge the world into a much more serious international crisis than the one we’re going through now but people like me are solemnly ignored by the world community.

Probably right, and of course people like you and I are ignored.

So all I can do is lead my own life and hope for the best.

Yup.

 

[Rhys]

Does that mean you think imposing a single state solution by force of arms upon Isreal and the Palestinians would work?

Has anyone suggested a solution imposed by arms on this terrorist nuclear state? It can be 'imposed' only by international boycott of racist 'Israel', as it was in South Africa, surely: when such things begin to bite the 'we'll destroy the world from our bunker' boys soon start reasoning like normal people and begin talking seriously. Why, for instance, is 'Israel' allowed to count itself as part of Europe for sporting and other such purposes? Why are racist academics allowed to attend international conferences? Because of AIPAC's grip on US politicos, that's why. Why do American voters allow themselves to be controlled like this? A simple campaign of questioning racism in the Colony could stop all the killing. Are they anti-semites, or what?

 

[Shogun]

Ouch!

Well...we eventually did figure it out, thanks to the hot heads who attacked US bases and armories...and all it took was about 600,000 lives to solve that.

If you can get the majority of Palestinians and Israeli to request international troops, and the complete abandonment of both their governments, I'll sign up for that solution.

If you cannot, I think that would be even more disasterous for all concerned than the mess it is now.

im not in the mood to convince anyone and be called an antisemite for the effort. We should cut the umbilical cord and not partake of the bullshit until israel and pals wants to play ball and take advice. If not, we are no better than the guy who gives the liquer store robber their gun.

 

[editec]

im not in the mood to convince anyone and be called an antisemite for the effort. We should cut the umbilical cord and not partake of the bullshit until israel and pals wants to play ball and take advice. If not, we are no better than the guy who gives the liquer store robber their gun.

Understood.

Except we both know that's not going to happen. America is in bed with Isreal, has been from 1948 and will be until peace is found there, I expect.

I really do not know what it will take to bring the Israeli and Palistinians, together.

It looked peace might break out after Camp David summit, but the the hotheads start lobbing rockets, and shooting peacemakers, the IDF invaded Lebanon, and well..you all know the rest of the story.

 

[Shogun]

well, you know, there was a time when the US wasn't going to interfere with ww2 despite germany eating euro like a cancer. And look what became of THAT move. And it's nothing shocking that there is a double standard verified blank check for israel. Anyone pointing that out gets y pluribum unum Scarlet A to put onto their jooo hating letter jacket.

peace is found there? in this direction it will only be the same 'peace" that we found after all but exterminating that pesky native thorn up until the 1900s. I'm not fond of the prospect.

And, again, cutting the cord on nations that invalidate democracy and retain an ethnic stanglehold would make israel reconsider it's options. Until we cut the cord isreal knows it doesnt have to do shit beyond purposfully misinterpreting iranian presidents and claiming a monopoly on victimhood.

indeed, it looked promising until YAbin was assasinated too. Funny how we never mention THAT... Any guess on how influential the ethnicity of his killer is to bringing THAT up? But, without a second thought no one hesitates to talk shit on lebennon. Funny how that works, eh?

Syria breaks silence on Rabin murder

Syria, officially silent immediately after the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, has now condemned the killing. Reporters traveling with President Clinton and the U.S. delegation to Rabin's funeral Monday were briefed on a telephone call placed by U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher to Syrian President Hafez Al-Assad after Saturday's murder. Assad told Christopher that Rabin's assassination was "a tragic event," according to a senior Clinton administration official.

Leaders from two other Arab neighbors of Israel, King Hussein of Jordan and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, are attending the funeral.

Syria and Lebanon are the only immediate neighbors of Israel which have not reached a peace agreement with the Jewish state. Negotiations are stalled over the issue of the Golan Heights, which Israel seized from Syria in the 1967 Mideast war. Christopher visited Damascus a week ago as part of an effort to revive the Israeli-Syrian peace talks. Before the Rabin assassination, U.S. officials said they hoped to see the talks resumed at some point.
CNN - Syria breaks silence on Rabin - Nov. 6, 1995

 

[Shogun]

HERE is how israel treats a jewish assassin of Rabin.


Up until October 20, 2006 the Shabak security service had opposed unsupervised visits. [7] Four days later, Amir was allowed a 10-hour-long conjugal visit with Larisa. Five months later it was reported that Larisa was pregnant, [8] and on October 28, 2007 she gave birth to a son: Yinon Eliya Shalom (Hebrew: ינון אליה שלום&#8206. The brit milah took place in Rimonim prison on November 4, 2007 after Amir's appeal to the district court to be present at his son's circumcision was accepted.[9]

In 2007 Amir family and the "Committee for Democracy" campaigned to release Yigal and Hagai Amir. Their campaign included stickers, posters and a short film.

Yigal Amir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


but hey.. lets talk about lebennon.

 

[editec]

HERE is how israel treats a jewish assassin of Rabin.


Up until October 20, 2006 the Shabak security service had opposed unsupervised visits. [7] Four days later, Amir was allowed a 10-hour-long conjugal visit with Larisa. Five months later it was reported that Larisa was pregnant, [8] and on October 28, 2007 she gave birth to a son: Yinon Eliya Shalom (Hebrew: ינון אליה שלום&#8206. The brit milah took place in Rimonim prison on November 4, 2007 after Amir's appeal to the district court to be present at his son's circumcision was accepted.[9]

In 2007 Amir family and the "Committee for Democracy" campaigned to release Yigal and Hagai Amir. Their campaign included stickers, posters and a short film.

Yigal Amir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


but hey.. lets talk about lebennon.

Well...what do you expect?

It was an inside job.

As was the assassination of Anwar Sadat.

Like I said, the resident warmongers on both sides killed their peacemakers.