Why I Don't Believe

[pinqy]

1 – All religions were true – this seemed unlikely since there were almost an infinite number across the planet and they appeared to fundamentally contradict one another in their morality, concept of God(s), history, etc.

I can agree with that...with the caveat that parts of all could be true.

2 – One religion was true while all others were false – this too seemed unlikely as why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them? Ideally it seemed God would want children to grow up without a religion and would, when they were adult enough to decide for themselves, choose which religion was true based on reason, morality, etc. It would be a conscious decision, not one made for them by their parents or community so if God were to later judge them at least they had a shot at salvation. Obviously this has never been the norm anywhere at any time in the past.

That's not an argument against the existence of a god, but rather against the posession by a god of certain qualities. If there is any thing powerful enough to be classified as a god, do we really have the perspective to say what one could/couldn't, should/shouldn't do? We just don't have the framework.

3 – No religion was true – this seemed the only logical answer then and didn’t seem so radical when I realized that if #2 above were true the majority of people in the world were WRONG. It seemed a modest leap from believing most people were wrong to all people were wrong (at that time I didn’t know anyone who admitted to me they did not believe in God).
Despite a lifetime of inquiry, I’ve never found a reason to change this decision.

I find it interesting that you phrased it as a decision. For me it wasn't. It was a conclusion, not a decision.

Here's how I looked at it:

1. What is a god, exactly?
2. How could we distinguish a god from some other supernatural being or natural but completely different beings?
3. Taking the world as it is, what would be the difference between a god (any one) and no gods, but people still believing as they do?

Since there is no good answer for 1. No solution to 2. And it couldn't figure out any difference between the two propositions in 3, I concluded that there is no reliable way to know if there are any gods or not.

That there is no way to tell if a god does or does not exist is the same as saying that no objective evidence can exist to support the existence of any god.

Therefore there is no reason to accept the existence of any.

 

[PostmodernProph]

I thought it was obvious.....I'm a Christian.....

I'm sorry, what denomination? What type of church do you attend?




.

I would say it falls in line with what most would define as mainline protestant............though I also find myself drawn to what's known as the emerging church movement.....

the "type" of church I attend is one which has approximately 150 families and is active in community outreach......a few years back we purchased a building the hospital was selling because it was moving to a new facility....we turned it into a center for non-profit organizations and currently have over 50 entities working out of a single location including a free health clinic, a food pantry, a restaurant which serves meals two nights a week asking only donations, a number of abuse, addiction, and marital counseling organizations, two adoption agencies, a center for autistic adults, etc.......

 

[alang1216]

If there is any thing powerful enough to be classified as a god, do we really have the perspective to say what one could/couldn't, should/shouldn't do? We just don't have the framework.

I usually figure if I was God, a normal human might be a on the level of my goldfish. He swims around and around and is vaguely aware that I exist but doesn't really have any conception of who I am or where the food he eats comes from. As for me (as God) I really don't care if he knows I exist or not, I don't wish him to fear me, and I don't expect him to share my concepts of right and wrong. If he bites another fish I don't condemn him as evil, he's just being a fish.

 

[alang1216]

I had similar questions. This must be a common starting point for atheists.

I think once you can bring yourself to ask the question "is there a God" you're halfway there.

 

[Carla_Danger]

I had similar questions. This must be a common starting point for atheists.

I think once you can bring yourself to ask the question "is there a God" you're halfway there.

I suppose you're right. I called myself agnostic for a long time. When you're an agnostic, people seem to be okay, because everyone has doubts at one time or another, but being an atheist is a whole other ball game. It's like having an incurable disease or something. LOL!





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[Carla_Danger]

I thought it was obvious.....I'm a Christian.....

I'm sorry, what denomination? What type of church do you attend?




.

I would say it falls in line with what most would define as mainline protestant............though I also find myself drawn to what's known as the emerging church movement.....

the "type" of church I attend is one which has approximately 150 families and is active in community outreach......a few years back we purchased a building the hospital was selling because it was moving to a new facility....we turned it into a center for non-profit organizations and currently have over 50 entities working out of a single location including a free health clinic, a food pantry, a restaurant which serves meals two nights a week asking only donations, a number of abuse, addiction, and marital counseling organizations, two adoption agencies, a center for autistic adults, etc.......

Is that similar to Presbyterian? I do know a couple of fine people who are Presbyterian.





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[Book of Jeremiah]

You have given your reason for not believing and I am giving you a reason to believe. Indeed all who have read this thread should listen to this because it is always good to hear "both sides" of the argument before making a decision.

[ame=http://youtu.be/oLOAUB9Vjo0]Visions of Heaven and Hell by John Bunyan (author of 'Pilgrim's Progress') - YouTube[/ame]

 

[alang1216]

You have given your reason for not believing and I am giving you a reason to believe. Indeed all who have read this thread should listen to this because it is always good to hear "both sides" of the argument before making a decision.

I listened to the beginning and it mentioned John Bunyon's vision of seeing an actual angel. My question, as always, is if many people have claimed to meet with angels (Mohammad, John Smith, etc.) why should I believe any of them?

 

[sealybobo]

As a young teen, I grew up in a neighborhood with both Christians and Jews and one day while walking I tried to reconcile why one God would have more than one religion. I considered the possibilities:
1 – All religions were true – this seemed unlikely since there were almost an infinite number across the planet and they appeared to fundamentally contradict one another in their morality, concept of God(s), history, etc.
2 – One religion was true while all others were false – this too seemed unlikely as why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them? Ideally it seemed God would want children to grow up without a religion and would, when they were adult enough to decide for themselves, choose which religion was true based on reason, morality, etc. It would be a conscious decision, not one made for them by their parents or community so if God were to later judge them at least they had a shot at salvation. Obviously this has never been the norm anywhere at any time in the past.
3 – No religion was true – this seemed the only logical answer then and didn’t seem so radical when I realized that if #2 above were true the majority of people in the world were WRONG. It seemed a modest leap from believing most people were wrong to all people were wrong (at that time I didn’t know anyone who admitted to me they did not believe in God).
Despite a lifetime of inquiry, I’ve never found a reason to change this decision.

What do you say to the people you're going to hell? I say if you need to use fear to get me to believe, that's not being rational or logical. Asking me to have blind faith doesn't seem right either. To tell me wonderful magical miracle stories and then show me no proof? Would't a real god if one existed reward my intelligence? I'm supposed to believe the powerful churches, politicians, rich people, corporations, media? Just because they have the masses convinced doesn't mean god exists and I think belief in god is holding people back mentally and scientifically and it has to stop.

I use to tell myself that god spoke to arabs when they were ready and he told them the story they needed to hear, and god talked to christians and jews when they needed to hear about it. But then did he tell the Greeks about the god(s) and Joseph Smith to start the Mormon faith? Of course he didn't. There have been 999 other religions before and after our big three. What happened to all those gods?

A guy name boss will tell you he believes because man has always believed. He'll also tell you that he has a soul but a bear or dog doesn't because he is special. Just because he's at the top of the food chain he goes to never never land and whales just die when they die. But his soul lives on forever. Wishful thinking.

It could be possible that one religion is true and the others are knock offs but I haven't found the one true one yet.

Luckily today with the internet you can find other like minded people. We should start a church and get tax breaks.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't think I have ever claimed the supernatural exists. I consider the word itself to be an oxymoron. Nor do I have the slightest desire to convince you of anything. You believe what feels right to you and I have no problem with that at all. I believe what feels right to me. Neither of us has any claim to special knowledge. Those who say they do are simply wrong... or so I believe.

As I said, I don't consider your choice to be unreasonable. I fully concede you may well be right. But, IMO, for a conclusion to be logical it must be based upon evidence. Your failure to find such evidence may simply be a failure to look in the right place, or recognize it when you saw it. I am not saying that is the case, only that we don't know one way or the other. So the only logical position is one of neutrality.

Didn't really mean you personally, it was more a general you. I thought you said you did believe in God and that is the definition of supernatural, creating the natural world necessitates God is outside the natural world.

I do believe in God, though I doubt it's what you see as God and it is certainly not the Christian concept of God. If God exists, then it is natural. Nothing super about it.

We don't know what is outside of our universe. We don't even know what our universe is. We don't know just about everything. I see no reason to apply some label to stuff we don't know as if there was something mystical to it. It's just stuff we don't know. Someone who grew up lighting fire with two sticks might think a butane lighter is supernatural.

I'm ok with ignorance. I also understand it is the nature of humans to try to fill in that ignorance with belief. I certainly see that in myself. But I think it is important we be able to realize when that is happening. There is nothing at all wrong with belief, but it is a mistake when we confuse it with knowledge. So yes I believe in God... but know? Not even a little bit.

In other words you know the god as we all define "god" does not exist. No miracles, no viring births, no talking to mosus on mt arafat, all superstition, zero proof. Humans made it up.

And for whatever personal reason you don't want to let it go. I understand. Maybe it's better to be safe than sorry and not completely deny god, but when you finally realize there is no god it is actually rather spiritual. You realize you are in on a big secret that most people don't even know. They can let all that shit go.

If you notice a lot of very weak minded sad, lonely, depressed, rock bottom people are the ones who find jesus and get real hard core about it. I bet the churches love it when they find people like that. First of all, that's cool if it saves someone from being sad and rock bottom. For that I give the churches and religions mad props. If they make people better people, that's about one of the only reasons I don't completely hate religion. They do do a lot of good. Can't deny that. But that doesn't change the fact a lie is a lie. I don't care what the purpose is I don't like being lied to.

Would you have rather just kept believing in Santa? Because remember he knows if you are naughty or nice. Right???

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

You have given your reason for not believing and I am giving you a reason to believe. Indeed all who have read this thread should listen to this because it is always good to hear "both sides" of the argument before making a decision.

I listened to the beginning and it mentioned John Bunyon's vision of seeing an actual angel. My question, as always, is if many people have claimed to meet with angels (Mohammad, John Smith, etc.) why should I believe any of them?

You did not listen to the entire video. Watch it in it's entirety and at the very least you must watch it from the half way point to the very end so that you may see that those atheists in hell were in even greater torments for each and every soul they saw coming which they knew they had deceived upon the earth.

Some of the greatest punishments in hell were reserved for such men as worked for Lucifer by either teaching false doctrines, false religions, or as was the case of those who knew they were working for Lucifer to destroy the faith of others through causing them to doubt, to not believe, to destroy what faith as the person had.

Those workers of Lucifer were subject to tremendous torment by the demons and were confused that they were not given favor in hell as a form of gratitude from Lucifer - but they were told by the demons - gratitude is a virtue and Satan has no virtues. Hell has no virtue. Hell despises the virtues of God. Had they known this they would have realized their foolishness in ever having trusted Lucifer to make good on a single promise. Indeed the demons admitted they lied to these men and women in order to get them to serve them and destroy the faith of people while they were on the earth. Some of the fallen angels said had we been given the opportunity to repent we would have done it. You were given the opportunity to repent but refused and therefore your punishment should be greater. That is what they told these souls in hell in so many words but you must see if for yourself because truly there is no hope for you outside of Jesus Christ and the Cross.

You must repent of your sins and come to him and live for him now. You cannot wait any longer Alang1216. You need to repent and give your life to Christ by faith, pray with your entire heart in repentance and plead upon the mercy of God now. I will pray for you too. I pray you do it this night that you may be pardoned of your sins and accepted by Jesus Christ as a son of God. Truly no man knows when his last day upon the earth shall be. Would you dare to risk such an eternal damnation as John Bunyan has clearly warned you of? Could you not watch the entire video knowing that your eternal life is even now dangling over the fires of hell as if by a thread as thin as a spiders web? Be wise and watch the video, Alang1216. You have nothing to lose and your eternal souls' salvation to gain! Watch the video!

 

[PostmodernProph]

I'm sorry, what denomination? What type of church do you attend?




.

I would say it falls in line with what most would define as mainline protestant............though I also find myself drawn to what's known as the emerging church movement.....

the "type" of church I attend is one which has approximately 150 families and is active in community outreach......a few years back we purchased a building the hospital was selling because it was moving to a new facility....we turned it into a center for non-profit organizations and currently have over 50 entities working out of a single location including a free health clinic, a food pantry, a restaurant which serves meals two nights a week asking only donations, a number of abuse, addiction, and marital counseling organizations, two adoption agencies, a center for autistic adults, etc.......

Is that similar to Presbyterian? I do know a couple of fine people who are Presbyterian.





.

not too far off.....as I recall there are some doctrinal differences, but I don't remember what they are.....

 

[Indeependent]

You have given your reason for not believing and I am giving you a reason to believe. Indeed all who have read this thread should listen to this because it is always good to hear "both sides" of the argument before making a decision.

I listened to the beginning and it mentioned John Bunyon's vision of seeing an actual angel. My question, as always, is if many people have claimed to meet with angels (Mohammad, John Smith, etc.) why should I believe any of them?

Chill.
Just be a good person.
You're not going to Hell.
Any religion that threatens you with Hell is rather insecure.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The Word of God is not religion. It is the Truth and if you are wise? You'll watch the video and listen to the message the LORD is sending you. It is 100% scripture based. The testimony is true. Watch the video.

 

[PratchettFan]

Didn't really mean you personally, it was more a general you. I thought you said you did believe in God and that is the definition of supernatural, creating the natural world necessitates God is outside the natural world.

I do believe in God, though I doubt it's what you see as God and it is certainly not the Christian concept of God. If God exists, then it is natural. Nothing super about it.

We don't know what is outside of our universe. We don't even know what our universe is. We don't know just about everything. I see no reason to apply some label to stuff we don't know as if there was something mystical to it. It's just stuff we don't know. Someone who grew up lighting fire with two sticks might think a butane lighter is supernatural.

I'm ok with ignorance. I also understand it is the nature of humans to try to fill in that ignorance with belief. I certainly see that in myself. But I think it is important we be able to realize when that is happening. There is nothing at all wrong with belief, but it is a mistake when we confuse it with knowledge. So yes I believe in God... but know? Not even a little bit.

In other words you know the god as we all define "god" does not exist. No miracles, no viring births, no talking to mosus on mt arafat, all superstition, zero proof. Humans made it up.

And for whatever personal reason you don't want to let it go. I understand. Maybe it's better to be safe than sorry and not completely deny god, but when you finally realize there is no god it is actually rather spiritual. You realize you are in on a big secret that most people don't even know. They can let all that shit go.

If you notice a lot of very weak minded sad, lonely, depressed, rock bottom people are the ones who find jesus and get real hard core about it. I bet the churches love it when they find people like that. First of all, that's cool if it saves someone from being sad and rock bottom. For that I give the churches and religions mad props. If they make people better people, that's about one of the only reasons I don't completely hate religion. They do do a lot of good. Can't deny that. But that doesn't change the fact a lie is a lie. I don't care what the purpose is I don't like being lied to.

Would you have rather just kept believing in Santa? Because remember he knows if you are naughty or nice. Right???

The "god as we all define 'God'"? Who is this "we" you are referring to? Whoever they are, I'm not part of them. I don't believe in your version of God and I never have. Nor have I ever defined God in the way you define it. I don't have to let it go because I have never held it in the first place. Perhaps you should ask yourself if you don't believe in God, why do you have such a clear vision of what God is?

It seems to me you are the one who can't let it go. You are focused on Christianity and can't seem to get your mind around the fact that Christianity is not the only way of considering God. You claim to have rejected it and yet appear unable to see any other viewpoint as valid or even to be considered.

Do I know your concept of God does not exist? Of course I don't know. I just don't believe it does. I believe in something else entirely. Do I know it exists? Of course I don't know. But until someone can come up with valid evidence to the contrary, I'll go with what feels right to me. Not because I reject someone else's beliefs, but because I have my own. I don't have to disprove other people's beliefs to feel comfortable with mine.

 

[rightwinger]

Don't forget OP, you can repent at any time. Don't let the Devil fool ya'.

You can Repent even when yer on yer Death Bed.

Just remember that!

You can repent also

You just have to say.....maybe all this shit I have been taught my whole life is not true

 

[Rationalist1016]

I had similar questions. This must be a common starting point for atheists.

I think once you can bring yourself to ask the question "is there a God" you're halfway there.

I suppose you're right. I called myself agnostic for a long time. When you're an agnostic, people seem to be okay, because everyone has doubts at one time or another, but being an atheist is a whole other ball game. It's like having an incurable disease or something. LOL!





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Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

 

[PratchettFan]

I think once you can bring yourself to ask the question "is there a God" you're halfway there.

I suppose you're right. I called myself agnostic for a long time. When you're an agnostic, people seem to be okay, because everyone has doubts at one time or another, but being an atheist is a whole other ball game. It's like having an incurable disease or something. LOL!





.

Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

 

[Rationalist1016]

I suppose you're right. I called myself agnostic for a long time. When you're an agnostic, people seem to be okay, because everyone has doubts at one time or another, but being an atheist is a whole other ball game. It's like having an incurable disease or something. LOL!





.

Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Really? What definition would they conform to?

 

[pinqy]

You have given your reason for not believing and I am giving you a reason to believe. Indeed all who have read this thread should listen to this because it is always good to hear "both sides" of the argument before making a decision.

I listened to the beginning and it mentioned John Bunyon's vision of seeing an actual angel. My question, as always, is if many people have claimed to meet with angels (Mohammad, John Smith, etc.) why should I believe any of them?

You did not listen to the entire video. Watch it in it's entirety and at the very least you must watch it from the half way point to the very end so that you may see that those atheists in hell were in even greater torments for each and every soul they saw coming which they knew they had deceived upon the earth.

Some of the greatest punishments in hell were reserved for such men as worked for Lucifer by either teaching false doctrines, false religions, or as was the case of those who knew they were working for Lucifer to destroy the faith of others through causing them to doubt, to not believe, to destroy what faith as the person had.

Those workers of Lucifer were subject to tremendous torment by the demons and were confused that they were not given favor in hell as a form of gratitude from Lucifer - but they were told by the demons - gratitude is a virtue and Satan has no virtues. Hell has no virtue. Hell despises the virtues of God. Had they known this they would have realized their foolishness in ever having trusted Lucifer to make good on a single promise. Indeed the demons admitted they lied to these men and women in order to get them to serve them and destroy the faith of people while they were on the earth. Some of the fallen angels said had we been given the opportunity to repent we would have done it. You were given the opportunity to repent but refused and therefore your punishment should be greater. That is what they told these souls in hell in so many words but you must see if for yourself because truly there is no hope for you outside of Jesus Christ and the Cross.

You must repent of your sins and come to him and live for him now. You cannot wait any longer Alang1216. You need to repent and give your life to Christ by faith, pray with your entire heart in repentance and plead upon the mercy of God now. I will pray for you too. I pray you do it this night that you may be pardoned of your sins and accepted by Jesus Christ as a son of God. Truly no man knows when his last day upon the earth shall be. Would you dare to risk such an eternal damnation as John Bunyan has clearly warned you of? Could you not watch the entire video knowing that your eternal life is even now dangling over the fires of hell as if by a thread as thin as a spiders web? Be wise and watch the video, Alang1216. You have nothing to lose and your eternal souls' salvation to gain! Watch the video!

So how is this supposed to work? Am I supposed to think "Oh, well, if I don't start believing than a god I don't believe in will punish me so I better completely change what I believe to be true in fear of a punishment I have no reason to think will actually happen."
Can you do that? Believe in something you don't believe is true based on anything other than actual evidence? If someone told you that unless you believe the Spice Girls to be the greatest Rock group of all time they will torture you, could you do it?