Why exactly are you unwilling to pay for other people's medical care?

[dblack]

Back to the topic, I'm not unwilling to pay for other people's health care. I unwilling to support laws that force others to do so.

 

[Arianrhod]

Back to the topic, I'm not unwilling to pay for other people's health care. I unwilling to support laws that force others to do so.

We never left the topic. Did you feel that way when you had to pay more for hospital and clinic services to cover for those who overused the ER prior to 2014?

My guess is, you didn't even know you were paying more then.

 

[dblack]

Back to the topic, I'm not unwilling to pay for other people's health care. I unwilling to support laws that force others to do so.

We never left the topic. Did you feel that way when you had to pay more for hospital and clinic services to cover for those who overused the ER prior to 2014?

My guess is, you didn't even know you were paying more then.

No, I was aware of it. I was opposed to EMTALA out of the gate. Unfunded mandates like that are always bad policy.

 

[Arianrhod]

Back to the topic, I'm not unwilling to pay for other people's health care. I unwilling to support laws that force others to do so.

We never left the topic. Did you feel that way when you had to pay more for hospital and clinic services to cover for those who overused the ER prior to 2014?

My guess is, you didn't even know you were paying more then.

No, I was aware of it. I was opposed to EMTALA out of the gate. Unfunded mandates like that are always bad policy.

So you're more a Life of Brian type of guy.

 

[dblack]

Back to the topic, I'm not unwilling to pay for other people's health care. I unwilling to support laws that force others to do so.

We never left the topic. Did you feel that way when you had to pay more for hospital and clinic services to cover for those who overused the ER prior to 2014?

My guess is, you didn't even know you were paying more then.

No, I was aware of it. I was opposed to EMTALA out of the gate. Unfunded mandates like that are always bad policy.

So you're more a Life of Brian type of guy.

What do you mean?

 

[Arianrhod]

Back to the topic, I'm not unwilling to pay for other people's health care. I unwilling to support laws that force others to do so.

We never left the topic. Did you feel that way when you had to pay more for hospital and clinic services to cover for those who overused the ER prior to 2014?

My guess is, you didn't even know you were paying more then.

No, I was aware of it. I was opposed to EMTALA out of the gate. Unfunded mandates like that are always bad policy.

So you're more a Life of Brian type of guy.

What do you mean?

"Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!"



Don't treat 'em, just let 'em die and toss the bodies on the cart later.

But you'd still have to pay the undertaker and his staff.

 

[dblack]

Back to the topic, I'm not unwilling to pay for other people's health care. I unwilling to support laws that force others to do so.

We never left the topic. Did you feel that way when you had to pay more for hospital and clinic services to cover for those who overused the ER prior to 2014?

My guess is, you didn't even know you were paying more then.

No, I was aware of it. I was opposed to EMTALA out of the gate. Unfunded mandates like that are always bad policy.

So you're more a Life of Brian type of guy.

What do you mean?

"Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!"



Don't treat 'em, just let 'em die and toss the bodies on the cart later.

But you'd still have to pay the undertaker and his staff.

Well, that's "Holy Grail", but I get your point. And it makes the same assumption as the OP - that being opposed to ill-conceived laws forcing "compassion" is the same thing as having no compassion. I don't want to see poor people turned away at hospitals, and I'd probably avoid hospitals that implemented such a policy.

But EMTALA, and similar unfunded mandates, are a copout. They're an attempt to outsource the safety net to private interests. If we want to ensure that everyone is guaranteed emergency services, we should pay for it legitimately through taxes. Passing a law that forces for-profit companies to do it is chickenshit.

 

[Arianrhod]

Well, that's "Holy Grail", but I get your point.

D'oh! Of course you're right...it's been a while since I've seen either film.

And it makes the same assumption as the OP - that being opposed to ill-conceived laws forcing "compassion" is the same thing as having no compassion. I don't want to see poor people turned away at hospitals, and I'd probably avoid hospitals that implemented such a policy.

But EMTALA, and similar unfunded mandates, are a copout. They're an attempt to outsource the safety net to private interests. If we want to ensure that everyone is guaranteed emergency services, we should pay for it legitimately through taxes. Passing a law that forces for-profit companies to do it is chickenshit.

I find myself agreeing with most of this, and maybe it can be addressed in the next round of reform, but I have to tell you, if anyone thought this board was representative of Americans, they'd find very little compassion and a lot of "ME, ME, MEEEEEEE!" JMO.

 

[PredFan]

So the "must post content before you flame" rule only applies to some, I see.

However, I remember back before the PPACA how all of you rose up with one voice decrying the fact that your hospital and clinic costs were going up because people were using ERs for non-emergent conditions and you all demanded insurance reform.

Oh, wait.

When did this happen? I've been here quite a while and I never heard that.

 

[Arianrhod]

So the "must post content before you flame" rule only applies to some, I see.

However, I remember back before the PPACA how all of you rose up with one voice decrying the fact that your hospital and clinic costs were going up because people were using ERs for non-emergent conditions and you all demanded insurance reform.

Oh, wait.

When did this happen? I've been here quite a while and I never heard that.

Never. Which was the point.

 

[PredFan]

So the "must post content before you flame" rule only applies to some, I see.

However, I remember back before the PPACA how all of you rose up with one voice decrying the fact that your hospital and clinic costs were going up because people were using ERs for non-emergent conditions and you all demanded insurance reform.

Oh, wait.

When did this happen? I've been here quite a while and I never heard that.

Never. Which was the point.

Hmm...well, I don't see the point then but, it might just be past my bedtime.

 

[hunarcy]

Right now there is someone who requires immediate medical care. That care will only be provided for payment. That someone has no money to pay it. You do. Are you not morally obligated to ensure that they receive the care they need?

No

 

[Arianrhod]

So the "must post content before you flame" rule only applies to some, I see.

However, I remember back before the PPACA how all of you rose up with one voice decrying the fact that your hospital and clinic costs were going up because people were using ERs for non-emergent conditions and you all demanded insurance reform.

Oh, wait.

When did this happen? I've been here quite a while and I never heard that.

Never. Which was the point.

Hmm...well, I don't see the point then but, it might just be past my bedtime.

LOL...fair enough! It's kind of a meme when someone ends a post with "Oh, wait," it means the thing they just described never happened.

 

[dblack]

Well, that's "Holy Grail", but I get your point.

D'oh! Of course you're right...it's been a while since I've seen either film.

And it makes the same assumption as the OP - that being opposed to ill-conceived laws forcing "compassion" is the same thing as having no compassion. I don't want to see poor people turned away at hospitals, and I'd probably avoid hospitals that implemented such a policy.

But EMTALA, and similar unfunded mandates, are a copout. They're an attempt to outsource the safety net to private interests. If we want to ensure that everyone is guaranteed emergency services, we should pay for it legitimately through taxes. Passing a law that forces for-profit companies to do it is chickenshit.

I find myself agreeing with most of this, and maybe it can be addressed in the next round of reform, but I have to tell you, if anyone thought this board was representative of Americans, they'd find very little compassion and a lot of "ME, ME, MEEEEEEE!" JMO.

Well, yeah. I see that too. And it's frustrating because we push each other into corners - to the point that liberals demonize all business owners as cruel robber barons and conservatives blame the victims of poverty, shaming them as though the welfare state was their idea. The vast majority of reasonable people aren't radicalized in that way, but it is getting worse - or seems to be.

This is really what I see as the key difference between libertarians and conservatives. Libertarians oppose the welfare state for the same reasons they oppose the police state. Conservatives don't like it because they believe it rewards the "sin" of poverty.

In my view, liberals and conservatives agree on the one thing libertarians oppose the most, the notion that government exists to impose morality on society. Libertarians want a government that protects our freedom to decide for ourselves what is moral and live accordingly.

 

[Arianrhod]

My only moral code is "If it harm no one, do what you will." So much time, money, and energy is squandered on victimless crimes, and now that so many prison systems have been privatized, it seems as if the only goal is to fill them.

I also believe that a country whose citizens are healthy, educated, and have access to training for the jobs that country needs filled is a country that's able to compete in an increasingly global society.

"American Exceptionalism" does more harm than good, IMO.

 

[jon_berzerk]

2016 DAKOTACAREONE Plan Summaries
This information is provided as a summary of the 2016 DAKOTACAREONE plans offered outside of the Marketplace. DAKOTACARE will not be offering plans inside the Marketplace in 2016. You will be able to get a quote on the 2016 plans when Open Enrollment begins on November 1, 2015.

 

[dblack]

My only moral code is "If it harm no one, do what you will." So much time, money, and energy is squandered on victimless crimes, and now that so many prison systems have been privatized, it seems as if the only goal is to fill them.

I also believe that a country whose citizens are healthy, educated, and have access to training for the jobs that country needs filled is a country that's able to compete in an increasingly global society.

But should we create victimless crimes in pursuit of that goal?

"American Exceptionalism" does more harm than good, IMO.

Yeah. I dunno what that's all about. Neo-con bullshit is all I get out of it.

 

[Arianrhod]

My only moral code is "If it harm no one, do what you will." So much time, money, and energy is squandered on victimless crimes, and now that so many prison systems have been privatized, it seems as if the only goal is to fill them.

I also believe that a country whose citizens are healthy, educated, and have access to training for the jobs that country needs filled is a country that's able to compete in an increasingly global society.

But should we create victimless crimes in pursuit of that goal?

Not sure I know what you mean.

"American Exceptionalism" does more harm than good, IMO.

Yeah. I dunno what that's all about. Neo-con bullshit is all I get out of it.

That's pretty much it. "We don't need to study how anyone else does things. We're AMURICANS!" See also: Hillary's sound byte about Denmark.

 

[dblack]

My only moral code is "If it harm no one, do what you will." So much time, money, and energy is squandered on victimless crimes, and now that so many prison systems have been privatized, it seems as if the only goal is to fill them.

I also believe that a country whose citizens are healthy, educated, and have access to training for the jobs that country needs filled is a country that's able to compete in an increasingly global society.

But should we create victimless crimes in pursuit of that goal?

Not sure I know what you mean.

Well, creating crimes is what government does. It's how it exercises power. It creates laws and enforces them. When we use government to pursue goals that aren't actually protecting victims, we're creating victimless crimes. So when we create government programs with otherwise laudable goals like making people healthier, or better educated, we're creating victimless crimes and making criminals out of anyone who doesn't want to go along with those plans. Anyone who refuses to pay for these programs, or otherwise abide by the mandates they impose (eg the individual mandate introduced by PPACA), is branded a criminal and punished likewise.

"American Exceptionalism" does more harm than good, IMO.

Yeah. I dunno what that's all about. Neo-con bullshit is all I get out of it.

That's pretty much it. "We don't need to study how anyone else does things. We're AMURICANS!" See also: Hillary's sound byte about Denmark.

We just need to study them with a full accounting of the liberty they sacrifice in pursuit of their goals. And also with a recognition of the differences in the politics and societies involved. Look what happened in our country when we tried to socialize health care. Did we get socialized medicine? No. We got a mandate permanently chaining us to corporate health care.

We also need to study them with a longer lens and not just focus on the last fifty years. Fascism is a meme that just keeps coming back around. It will remain tempting, as long as we have competing nations and weak world governance, because it thrives on the idea that government can make us "better" (smarter, healthier, wealthier, etc...). If there is anything to American Exceptionalism, it's in the relatively unique idea that government isn't there to tell us how to live, but rather to protect our freedom to live as we wish.

 

[Arianrhod]

To me American Exceptionalism can be distilled down to "We don't need no stinkin'..." [fill in the blank].

Certain segments of American society believe that our way is the only way and refuse to even study other countries' ways of doing things...not to mimic them, but to take the good things about them and adapt them to the American way of life.

But, no. We can't have Nice Things. We're Americans, dammit!

Another term for that is "self-defeating pigheadedness," IMO.