Why do you support illegal immigration?

[Tech_Esq]

I have to laugh when those European descent get up in arms over 'illegal' immigration; it's what this nation was founded on. As far as I am concerned if you are European and in favor of deportation then you need to get on your damn boat back to Europe and deport yourselves. How hilarious that the ancestors of Caucasian people came over here and didn't give a shit over the fact that they brought: war, disease, and genocide to my ancestors living here and now they point a finger an whine at people crossing the border to make a better life for themselves.

I've worked in the school system with families that are clearly here illegally and they are some of the hardest working, most caring parents that I have had the honor to meet. Many of these people come here with the intention of bettering themselves and securing a future for their children. This is much more honorable than the immigrations of the past based on exploitation and destruction. Shame on those who can't seem to recall the way their ancestors came to this land and now demonize those that come here in a more peaceful manner.

If we want to stop illegal immigration then we need to have a hand in solving the economic and social crisis that are running rampant in the home countries of the people immigrating here. We won't solve immigration by simply bandaging the symptoms of those moving here unofficially as it will be a continuous situation that won't go away. Our government should stop supporting oppressive governments abroad and I believe we would see far fewer people fleeing the abuse of their own nations. However, IMO those of native/mexican descent have a greater ecological right to this continent and the indigenous people will eventually be prosperous again

What a crock. The latest science on the initial origin of the Native American peoples is that the supposed ice bridge that would have provided a path across the Bering Strait from Asia was obliterated by a meteor and would not have existed as first thought. In reviewing DNA evidence from the oldest American finds and finds of a similar age in Europe, a positive match has been found indicating that Native Americans probably have their origins in Europe. So scrap that argument for now until new science comes along and disproves that.

Why do you think that all European migration to the US was necessarily illegal and they should get on boats back to Europe? At least initially, the was no political entity which controlled the North American land mass to allow or disallow migration. In any case, where Indians were met, they were engaged in Treaties. I'm not going to make the argument that all treaties were fair, because they weren't or all treaties were upheld, because they weren't. Initially they by and large were upheld because the Indians had significant advantages in numbers and could have wiped out the Europeans. In any case, the Indians were no better or worse treated vis-a-vis their military position vs. the Europeans than anyone else the Europeans dealt with including themselves. Ask the Irish.

I'm going to sit back and listen to how you can explain MS-13 and the Latin Kings and how they are not bent on destruction and exploitation. They are part of this illegal immigration. European immigration was not all bent on destruction anymore than all illegal immigration is today. There is an element in both this was and is.

I do recall how my ancestors came here. They came here as a result of the Clearances in Scotland. If you want to read a story of oppression, maltreatment, murder, deprivation of property and culture and rape of a civilization take a look at the story of the Scots in the late 18th century. Highland Clearances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This article doesn't begin to cover it, but it's a start.

First is not our place to provide social programs for other countries people. That would rightly be called US interference in their internal affairs. As far as supporting oppressive Latin governments, we don't support Chavez or his counter-parts in Peru and Uruguay so I don't know what you are talking about. (Although if there is a President Obama, I suspect we will start supporting those oppressive governments so maybe you have a point).

 

[Bern80]

So is smoking pot. So was anal sex between consenting adults in some states until 4 seconds ago. So was spitting on the sidewalk. So was being black and drinking from the wrong water fountain not all that long ago in some places. All laws.

So I'm going to change your question from the misnomer you presented. Why does illegal immigration not concern me?

In my view the talking points about expenses to government is overblown. Largely,we are talking about education and healthcare services.

Everyone should be allowed access to institutions of education. In my view, not even building a wall (that no one wants to pay for) will stop the majority of illegal immigration. Its just too big of a land border. If thats the case, then we don't want to force these people into dependency and poverty and enable them to be self dependent. Education is the single greatest investment government can make, and it should be denied to no one. In my view, denying education to illegals only encourages the social problems that come with immigrants from what is basically a third world country.

On healthcare, I'm just never going to support turning people away from the emergency room, I don't care who they are.

So those two expenses are acceptable to me.

With that said, these people really do provide needed services in many industries. These people can't go collect welfare or other public assistance, so they are forced into these below wage jobs. Kicking illegals out of the country en masse sounds great to some, until their cost to have their offices cleaned increases x5.

And my overriding principle is simple. If I'm standing in a third world country looking over a fence at the richest country in the world with the most jobs in the world, I'm going, not standing around thinking about the morality of the issue. These people simply are trying to get theirs, just like we all wake up and do every day.

So let's turn the question around again. Why do feel it is okay for them to get a tax break, as in all taxes, and not okay for you?

 

[AllieBaba]

THe VA do attract some sub-standard doctors, because the pay isn't great. You want good doctors, you need to pay them. If you don't pay them, you're going to get doctors that can't get the higher paying positions...and there's generally a reason for that.

VA staff, however, are generally very, very good, at least in my experience. Many of them are military and because the wages are comparable and the benefits good compared to what regular staff in other institutions make, you get the same quality as you do anywhere else, and in many cases, higher quality.

Keep in mind that when you have a huge bureacracy, level of care goes down, down, down. When you are considering voting for national health care, give a thought to the effectiveness of our VA hospitals, our schools..and even our poor military...all of them have to deal with logistical nightmares which leads to inefficiency and in some cases, incompetence.

And condolences on the death of your father.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

THe VA do attract some sub-standard doctors, because the pay isn't great. You want good doctors, you need to pay them. If you don't pay them, you're going to get doctors that can't get the higher paying positions...and there's generally a reason for that.

VA staff, however, are generally very, very good, at least in my experience. Many of them are military and because the wages are comparable and the benefits good compared to what regular staff in other institutions make, you get the same quality as you do anywhere else, and in many cases, higher quality.

Keep in mind that when you have a huge bureacracy, level of care goes down, down, down. When you are considering voting for national health care, give a thought to the effectiveness of our VA hospitals, our schools..and even our poor military...all of them have to deal with logistical nightmares which leads to inefficiency and in some cases, incompetence.

And condolences on the death of your father.

Wrong thread Allie )

 

[Laine]

What a crock. The latest science on the initial origin of the Native American peoples is that the supposed ice bridge that would have provided a path across the Bering Strait from Asia was obliterated by a meteor and would not have existed as first thought. In reviewing DNA evidence from the oldest American finds and finds of a similar age in Europe, a positive match has been found indicating that Native Americans probably have their origins in Europe. So scrap that argument for now until new science comes along and disproves that.

Why do you think that all European migration to the US was necessarily illegal and they should get on boats back to Europe? At least initially, the was no political entity which controlled the North American land mass to allow or disallow migration. In any case, where Indians were met, they were engaged in Treaties. I'm not going to make the argument that all treaties were fair, because they weren't or all treaties were upheld, because they weren't. Initially they by and large were upheld because the Indians had significant advantages in numbers and could have wiped out the Europeans. In any case, the Indians were no better or worse treated vis-a-vis their military position vs. the Europeans than anyone else the Europeans dealt with including themselves. Ask the Irish.

I'm going to sit back and listen to how you can explain MS-13 and the Latin Kings and how they are not bent on destruction and exploitation. They are part of this illegal immigration. European immigration was not all bent on destruction anymore than all illegal immigration is today. There is an element in both this was and is.

I do recall how my ancestors came here. They came here as a result of the Clearances in Scotland. If you want to read a story of oppression, maltreatment, murder, deprivation of property and culture and rape of a civilization take a look at the story of the Scots in the late 18th century. Highland Clearances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This article doesn't begin to cover it, but it's a start.

First is not our place to provide social programs for other countries people. That would rightly be called US interference in their internal affairs. As far as supporting oppressive Latin governments, we don't support Chavez or his counter-parts in Peru and Uruguay so I don't know what you are talking about. (Although if there is a President Obama, I suspect we will start supporting those oppressive governments so maybe you have a point).

Who gives a crap about how the first 'Americans' got here? What matters is that by the time of the latest arrivals the cultures of North America where very much distinct and different than those in Asia or Europe. I am tired of people of both sides trying to take credit for the migrating here first when what matters is that they were independent and distinct from their either potential 'parent' group. My arguement still holds; Europeans and Native Americans were not the same people or of the same cultural groups. Science proves what I had always thought which is that the first peoples of this continent were not orginally from here but their long isolation created different forms of human civilization that were lost.

Also, it is fairly ignorant to say that all 'Indians' as you call them were engaged into treaties, especially considering the fact that some of these treaties were not understood by native peoples. Are you going to claim that the Conquistadors who told the natives of Mexico that if they submitted to the power of the Catholic Church then they would be spared and if not then destroyed engaged in a legitimate treaty? Besides wherever Europeans went there were Native people who I am sure did not appreciate the displacement caused by the European arrivals; just because some groups perhaps did not have the same concept of immigration(though some did) it is in effect the same situation as today. My own ancestors in Alaska never received a treaty until the 1970s. I am sorry but this treatment is vastly different than those engaged in by Europeans with each other. It's a tragedy that the same happened to the tribal peoples of Northern Europe and the British and Irish Islands and I would never deny that.

It's a farce to say that Europeans came here without being bent on destruction and exploitation. The first European immigrants especially the English were charter companies that came here looking for gold or the Spanish who came here looking for gold as well as souls. How are companies and missionaries not bent on colonization for the sole purpose of imposing their will on other peoples or the exploitation of them? Explain that one to me if you can but obviously you won't be able to. Of course various gangs are corrupt but they are not the only ones travelling and immigrating to the United States and they certainly did not start the immigration. However even these gangs aren’t comparable to the armies of the United States or the armies of Europe who had the support of the economies of their nations and the governments of their nations.

Finally, I never said I wanted all Europeans to get on a boat back to Europe. You simply put those words in my mouth in order to justify your indignant response. What I said is those in favor of deportation should go back to Europe because it is the same logic you pick and choose to use against those from Latin America.

 

[CharlestonChad]

THe VA do attract some sub-standard doctors, because the pay isn't great. You want good doctors, you need to pay them. If you don't pay them, you're going to get doctors that can't get the higher paying positions...and there's generally a reason for that.

VA staff, however, are generally very, very good, at least in my experience. Many of them are military and because the wages are comparable and the benefits good compared to what regular staff in other institutions make, you get the same quality as you do anywhere else, and in many cases, higher quality.

Keep in mind that when you have a huge bureacracy, level of care goes down, down, down. When you are considering voting for national health care, give a thought to the effectiveness of our VA hospitals, our schools..and even our poor military...all of them have to deal with logistical nightmares which leads to inefficiency and in some cases, incompetence.

And condolences on the death of your father.

Nice post. I knew you had it in ya!


I wish you would recognize that there's a different between national health care and nationally funded health care. We can make health care free for those needing it, and still not have our dr.s and rn's working for the government. That's nationally funded health care, which is what Barack is wanting to do.

 

[CharlestonChad]

KMAN, 5 pages and just one example, and it was against your theory? Is your perception starting to change from "typical" to "immature rude liberals act teh way you described"?

 

[AllieBaba]

I recognize the difference, though I might not get the terminology right.

 

[AllieBaba]

Wrong thread Allie )

Aw, crud.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Who gives a crap about how the first 'Americans' got here? What matters is that by the time of the latest arrivals the cultures of North America where very much distinct and different than those in Asia or Europe. I am tired of people of both sides trying to take credit for the migrating here first when what matters is that they were independent and distinct from their either potential 'parent' group. My arguement still holds; Europeans and Native Americans were not the same people or of the same cultural groups. Science proves what I had always thought which is that the first peoples of this continent were not orginally from here but their long isolation created different forms of human civilization that were lost.

Also, it is fairly ignorant to say that all 'Indians' as you call them were engaged into treaties, especially considering the fact that some of these treaties were not understood by native peoples. Are you going to claim that the Conquistadors who told the natives of Mexico that if they submitted to the power of the Catholic Church then they would be spared and if not then destroyed engaged in a legitimate treaty? Besides wherever Europeans went there were Native people who I am sure did not appreciate the displacement caused by the European arrivals; just because some groups perhaps did not have the same concept of immigration(though some did) it is in effect the same situation as today. My own ancestors in Alaska never received a treaty until the 1970s. I am sorry but this treatment is vastly different than those engaged in by Europeans with each other. It's a tragedy that the same happened to the tribal peoples of Northern Europe and the British and Irish Islands and I would never deny that.

It's a farce to say that Europeans came here without being bent on destruction and exploitation. The first European immigrants especially the English were charter companies that came here looking for gold or the Spanish who came here looking for gold as well as souls. How are companies and missionaries not bent on colonization for the sole purpose of imposing their will on other peoples or the exploitation of them? Explain that one to me if you can but obviously you won't be able to. Of course various gangs are corrupt but they are not the only ones travelling and immigrating to the United States and they certainly did not start the immigration. However even these gangs aren’t comparable to the armies of the United States or the armies of Europe who had the support of the economies of their nations and the governments of their nations.

Finally, I never said I wanted all Europeans to get on a boat back to Europe. You simply put those words in my mouth in order to justify your indignant response. What I said is those in favor of deportation should go back to Europe because it is the same logic you pick and choose to use against those from Latin America.

I can agree with you that by the time of European exploration, no matter what the origin of the peoples of North America, they were culturally distinct from peoples of their origin.

I was not speaking to whatever may have occurred outside of North America or if you wish to have an expansive definition of North America, what happened outside of what is not the US and Canada.

Rather than waste time answering each point, suffice it to say there is one decisive difference between the two cases. The occupants here at the time of European exploration were too weak to stop the Europeans. The current occupants of North America are strong enough to prevent illegal immigration. The question is only whether they possess sufficient testicular fortitude to do it.

 

[KMAN]

The entire Mexican population does not want to come to the US, so that solves that problem. If the country is going to fail, its going to be because of borrowing to pay for tax breaks issued without reducing spending, not people cleaning offices and picking fruit. The military-industrial complex is bleeding us much more than Mexicans ever could.

I would have a problem with anyone breaking into my house regardless of their color or what country they were born in. However if I chose to compensate them for providing a service that wouldn't be breaking in. Bad analogy.

Amnesty just makes sense, but not without reform to the immigration system. The problem isn't lack of enforcement, because enforcement is damn near impossible. 1986's amnesty failed not because it was a bad idea, but because the demand for immigration far exceeds the supply of legal immigration opportunities. If the REGULATION of the SUPPLY wasn't insufficient to provide for the DEMAND we wouldn't be repeating the amnesty debate. I find it interesting that conservatives don't see, or choose not to see, the free market principles at play in immigration.

And finally, but by no means less important, is that INS has been rolled into DHS and has become, in part, ICE. There is no way DHS should be given the power to create yet another secret police force; this one to track down 20 million people. Between a wall and a new DHS agency, which would likely be given extra-constitutional powers given the brief history of the agency and its crying and complaining about checks and balances from congress and the judiciary, amnesty is cheaper and less intrusive to liberty. I can see it now: DHS with the power to deport people without hearings. If you are dark skinned and go to the store without your license you might get caught in a round up and find yourself in Tijuana the same day. On top of that, we'd be paying $10,000 a month per agent to some subcontractor with waiver from the oval office on the subcontractor's obligations under the law. I'll pass.

How do you know the whole country of Mexico doesn't want to come here???? We have this many people coming here illegally!!!!!! That number would easily quadruple if we started granting amnesty. It's amazing you would rather see a depression in the whole country than enforce the laws in this country... Do you live in Mexico?

"However if I chose to compensate them for providing a service that wouldn't be breaking in" What the hell does that mean???? Besides what does color or where they come from have to do with anything? So as long as you pay them to break into your home it's not a break in???????? Please elaborate.

So becasue it is to hard to enforce we should just let them in is that what you are saying?

We can't catch all drunk drivers so let's just make that legal as well...

Who decides what laws we need to enforce and what laws can slide?

 

[KMAN]

All you have to do is look at San Francisco to see how illegal immigration is hurting the economy... The city of SF is $338 million in debt and they are going to be asking me and you to pay for it...

 

[KMAN]

Amazing that people want to keep throwing money away...

For those who say, " How do we know illegal immigration is not good for our country?" It's not that hard to understand. Stop drinking the koo-aid, please for the sake of our country.

If you want to support them fine... But let the states decide so I don't have to pay for them..... and when your state runs out of money don't come to our state asking for it.


Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion
Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion : North County Times - Californian




Center for Immigration Studies Cost Estimates
Center for Immigration Studies

Illegal Immigrants Cause 6% of Crime , which Costs$24 Billion
Eric Rasmusen's Weblog: Illegal Immigrants Cause 6% of Crime , which Costs$24 Billion

Immigration Counters.com - Live Data

Hidden cost of illegal immigration: ID theft - The Red Tape Chronicles - MSNBC.com


And last but not least, for those of you who are so concerned about the families of illegal immigrants what about the families who are hurt by illegal immigrants?

Immigrations Human Cost

 

[Charles_Main]

Amazing that people want to keep throwing money away...

For those who say, " How do we know illegal immigration is not good for our country?" It's not that hard to understand. Stop drinking the koo-aid, please for the sake of our country.

If you want to support them fine... But let the states decide so I don't have to pay for them..... and when your state runs out of money don't come to our state asking for it.


Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion
Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion : North County Times - Californian




Center for Immigration Studies Cost Estimates
Center for Immigration Studies

Illegal Immigrants Cause 6% of Crime , which Costs$24 Billion
Eric Rasmusen's Weblog: Illegal Immigrants Cause 6% of Crime , which Costs$24 Billion

Immigration Counters.com - Live Data

Hidden cost of illegal immigration: ID theft - The Red Tape Chronicles - MSNBC.com


And last but not least, for those of you who are so concerned about the families of illegal immigrants what about the families who are hurt by illegal immigrants?

Immigrations Human Cost

Yep, and we have not even discussed how Illegals have driven down wages in all sorts of industries. If you do not believe, try working in construction anywhere where there is a large Hispanic and illegal population. You used to be able to make a pretty good living at it. Not anymore.

 

[Ravi]

From one of Kman's links:

Gerardo Gonzalez, director of Cal State San Marcos' National Latino Research Center, which compiles data on Latinos, criticized the report. He said it does not measure some of the contributions that immigrants make to the state's economy.

"Beyond taxes, these workers' production and spending contribute to California's economy, especially the agricultural sector," Gonzalez said.

This is the question no one ever addresses. What cost would there be to not have them? Until you answer that question, this issue is never going to be anything but a wedge issue.

You can't argue facts when there aren't any.

 

[Charles_Main]

Well I can tell you this, Here in Michigan where we have both a 10% unemployment rate, and a sizable illegal population, I do not think you will get far with the we need them argument. People in Michigan need jobs, and the do not need to be competing with illegals to get them.

 

[Shogun]

Vote for the Shogun's 10 point plan to eradicate illegal immigration

We are not Mexico's economic tampon.

 

[Ravi]

Well I can tell you this, Here in Michigan where we have both a 10% unemployment rate, and a sizable illegal population, I do not think you will get far with the we need them argument. People in Michigan need jobs, and the do not need to be competing with illegals to get them.

See, the free market works!

We are just starting to see our unemployment rate creep up, and the illegals are no longer in hot demand.

 

[Shogun]

or.. companies who hire them are being paid more attention to..


Claims of ID fraud lead to largest raid in state history
Claims of ID fraud lead to largest raid in state history | DesMoinesRegister.com | The Des Moines Register

 

[Tech_Esq]

From one of Kman's links:
This is the question no one ever addresses. What cost would there be to not have them? Until you answer that question, this issue is never going to be anything but a wedge issue.

You can't argue facts when there aren't any.

This is not an unanswerable question. Our county (Prince William County, Virginia) has virtually chased most of them away in the last year either through deportations, jails or fear of same. They left the county in droves. Some have even abandoned their houses. What's the effect?

First, let me establish the level of potential illegal immigrant activity (while I grant you the area has some illegal Irish, Indian, Pakistani and African immigrants) these are far outweighed by the Hispanic illegals.

In 1990, the county had 4.5% Hispanics. In 2000, it had 9.7%. By 2006, it had risen to 19.1%. So nearly 20% of the county was Hispanic. I don't think we have a number for either how many were illegal or what the outflow is yet.

The unemployment rate in the county was 2.3% in July, 2007. It was 2.8% in April, 2008. Sorry, I can't find any better link than this, but it gives you a flavor on the answer to your question. This ain’t Hell, but you can see it from here Blog Archive New concept; Enforce the law and criminals leave