Why are soldiers automatically considered heroes?

[JBeukema]

Your language reveals that you are a child. Grow up and stop disgracing the uniform. Act like a grown man.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Your language reveals that you are a child. Grow up and stop disgracing the uniform. Act like a grown man.

My language reveals that I live in a country with a beautiful thing called a First Amendment Right, MOTHERFUCKER!

You don't like the language?.........Don't join the military, MOTHERFUCKER.......'Cause i'm mild compared to what you're gonna hear!

But then, you're full o' SHIT, MOTHERFUCKER!.......Always have been.....You wouldn't make it past hospital corners and quarter bouncing day, MOTHERFUCKER!

It's best you just stay down in mommy's basement and spend your time whining about how bad this country sucks, MOTHERFUCKER!

 

[JBeukema]

Real men don't throw tantrums.

 

[MikeK]

Mike,
Thank you for serving our country.....and when I tell you (or anyone else) that, I am NOT being "patronizing", or saying "better you than me", because I have been there, done that.

Then what reason do you suppose you have to thank me? I certainly don't owe you any thanks.

I joined up in 1962, before I went to college, so by the time things heated up in Vietnam, I had finished my active obligation, and was still in the Reserve. I could have avoided Vietnam; all I had to do was not re-up and apply for OCS. I could have let some kid with less experience do the fighting (and maybe the dying) for me, but you know what-after all I've been through, I am damn glad I didn't, and I'd do it again. I'd do it again, because it would not have felt right to do otherwise, not to me.

So you compromised your safety and your future to accommodate some anonymous junior who probably would be pulled in at some point, anyway. Didn't you have anything to live for? A wife? A girl who loved you? Your mother? Someone who would be anguished if you were killed or crippled. How would you explain your action to them?

Some call me a "war criminal" for that. Some say I "must love war".

There were some extremists in the protest movement who voiced such opinions. But that level of protest didn't begin until news of My Lai and other atrocities started leaking and the public began to realize there was no justifiable reason for our presence in Vietnam.

The "war lover" refrain came mainly from the many thousands of protesters who burned their draft cards and simply refused to go.

Bullshit. I hate war, but there's something I hate more-the idea of "peace at any price". So go ahead and call me an "indoctrinated militarist", or whatever else you damn well choose; I don't care, and I've been called worse. I know what I was fighting for, and I don't need or want anyone else telling me how I "should" feel about it.

I don't know about peace at any price but as far as Vietnam was concerned we should have gotten out of there much sooner.

If you know what you were fighting for you should have written to Robert MacNamara, the architect of the Vietnam "police action," and told him. Because he wrote a book at the end of his career, The Fog Of War, in which he clearly admits there was no good reason for our presence there to begin with. Perhaps you could have enlightened him.

By the way, I am a 'three-time volunteer", but I am no hero, never thought I was, or wanted to be. I am a survivor. You want heroes, go look on the Wall; you can find their names right there.

I've never seen The Wall. But I have seen many pictures of it and the only thought it brings to my mind is the terrible waste it represents. It is a monument that for all intents and purposes should have prevented George W. Bush from effectively perpetrating his arrogant crime. The reason it didn't is most Americans prefer to think in terms of heroes rather than brave and willing victims.

 

[Colin]

It's obvious you dislike vets.

It's clear you're just an ignorant troll. I neither like nor dislike 'vets'. 'Verts' is a huge group of persons, some likeable and some not- some honourable and some not.


Unlike you, I judge people as individuals. Some people are honourable and some are not. Some wars are justified and some are not. Some actions are acceptable and some are not.

You, however, attack me via negrep for judging men for their own characters and actions instead of painting with a broad brush

Hi, you have received -7 reputation points from Warrior102.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
Move to Vietnam chimp

Regards,
Warrior102

Note: This is an automated message.

Interesting that you bring up VietNam

Thankfully you live in a country where you're allowed to voice your pitiful points of view.

For now. We'll see how long that lasts. Today, America sets up 'Free Speech Zones' for dissenters- implying that the rest of the nation, outside that little area, is not a Free Speech zone.

Too bad Americans have to tolerate folks like you.

Yes, too bad there are people to demand the truth and hold this nation to a higher standard...

You are filth

Fucking hilarious! JB calls someone else filth!

 

[daveman]

Believe that you will; you don't matter anyway

Is that why you post every neg rep you get?

 

[007]

I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.

Hmmm... another military and veteran hater. What a shocker.

So where did you learn to hate the military? You grow up in a hippie commune? You live in San Franqueerco? You join and got your pussy ass washed out? You a butt boy? What? What did soldiers or the military every do to you other than fight for your rights and your freedom to make you HATE them? ... you fucking rotten piece of dog shit... you make me fucking SICK.

 

[Caroljo]

I have a friend and her son on my Facebook account...i just blocked her son. First off, he's gay...which doesn't bother me..he's a good kid and being gay is his problem between him and God. I usually just glance over his comments, because he usually says stuff i don't really care about. But, last week he posted a video showing a US Soldier that had "come out of the closet". That's fine too, except her son posted the comment "THIS is what i call the ultimate HERO" (or something very close to that). So i blocked him, he has no idea what a hero is, and it ISN'T because someone announces their gay! Some people have no idea what a hero is, or should be. I'd like to see some of these people get put through the training my son is going through with the Special Forces right now, they wouldn't make it through day 1...i know i wouldn't!

 

[The Gadfly]

Mike,
Thank you for serving our country.....and when I tell you (or anyone else) that, I am NOT being "patronizing", or saying "better you than me", because I have been there, done that.

Then what reason do you suppose you have to thank me? I certainly don't owe you any thanks.

I joined up in 1962, before I went to college, so by the time things heated up in Vietnam, I had finished my active obligation, and was still in the Reserve. I could have avoided Vietnam; all I had to do was not re-up and apply for OCS. I could have let some kid with less experience do the fighting (and maybe the dying) for me, but you know what-after all I've been through, I am damn glad I didn't, and I'd do it again. I'd do it again, because it would not have felt right to do otherwise, not to me.

So you compromised your safety and your future to accommodate some anonymous junior who probably would be pulled in at some point, anyway. Didn't you have anything to live for? A wife? A girl who loved you? Your mother? Someone who would be anguished if you were killed or crippled. How would you explain your action to them?


There were some extremists in the protest movement who voiced such opinions. But that level of protest didn't begin until news of My Lai and other atrocities started leaking and the public began to realize there was no justifiable reason for our presence in Vietnam.

I do not regret serving in Vietnam. I do not consider that service a burden. My job was to "protect the innocent, convince the undecided, and kill the rest", and I did the best I could, as did the magnificent men it was my privilege to command. I only regret that I could not bring each and every one of them safely home, to their loved ones, that we were not allowed to finish the job, and that America disgraced herself by cutting and running, with victory within our grasp. Just as I am not a hero, I am not a victim either.

The "war lover" refrain came mainly from the many thousands of protesters who burned their draft cards and simply refused to go.

Bullshit. I hate war, but there's something I hate more-the idea of "peace at any price". So go ahead and call me an "indoctrinated militarist", or whatever else you damn well choose; I don't care, and I've been called worse. I know what I was fighting for, and I don't need or want anyone else telling me how I "should" feel about it.

I don't know about peace at any price but as far as Vietnam was concerned we should have gotten out of there much sooner.

If you know what you were fighting for you should have written to Robert MacNamara, the architect of the Vietnam "police action," and told him. Because he wrote a book at the end of his career, The Fog Of War, in which he clearly admits there was no good reason for our presence there to begin with. Perhaps you could have enlightened him.

By the way, I am a 'three-time volunteer", but I am no hero, never thought I was, or wanted to be. I am a survivor. You want heroes, go look on the Wall; you can find their names right there.

I've never seen The Wall. But I have seen many pictures of it and the only thought it brings to my mind is the terrible waste it represents. It is a monument that for all intents and purposes should have prevented George W. Bush from effectively perpetrating his arrogant crime. The reason it didn't is most Americans prefer to think in terms of heroes rather than brave and willing victims.

First of all, I'll thank anyone who has had the requisite love of country, unselfishness, devotion to duty, and yes, courage, to serve America in uniform. That specifically includes you. I am not angry that you see your service as you do; I am saddened that any veteran feels so about something I regard as an honor and a privilege.

Second, yes, I had a future, a girlfriend and family waiting back home, and everything to live for. So did most men who went to Vietnam. I didn't go to Vietnam to die; I fully intended and expected to do my duty, complete the mission, and come home. I only knew a couple of "death lovers" (defined as those with an apparent desire to "die a glorious death" in combat) during my time in service. I was not one of them, nor did I want any with me in the field; they get other people killed.

So why would I risk my life, and or my personal safety? A number of reasons: because I CHOSE to be an officer in the United States Army; because I CHOSE to try to be the very best, and lead the very best; because I believe, as Lee said, that "Duty is the most sublime word in the English Language. Do your duty in all things; you cannot do more; you should never wish to do less."; because I believed that the spread of communism was evil and had to be stopped; because I wanted the Vietnamese people to be able to decide who would lead them, without being terrorized into supporting the VC, and last but not least, because I was ordered to, and my oath of service forbade disobeying the lawful orders of my superiors. The first time I saw what the VC did to make an example of a village, I KNEW, beyond doubt, that I made the right choice; I knew, even while I and my men puked at the sight of the horror the Cong had perpetrated, what I was fighting for, and just what kind of evil I was fighting against. I want to tell you something here; I hear all sorts of remarks about the awful things Americans did in Vietnam. I am here to tell you that regardless of what made the six o'clock news, I never saw Americans do anything remotely like what the VC did in that place, but what I DID see, was Americans giving some of the Vietnamese the only medical care they had ever received, Americans giving rations to hungry peasants, Americans shielding Vietnamese kids from bullets with their own bodies. Uncle Walter forgot to mention any of that. Were there occasional disgraceful incidents? Sure, like there are in any war; but when anyone paints the American soldier of Vietnam, as a sadistic, unfeeling, racist, drug-besotted, baby-killing, raping, murdering, pillaging brute, or as a stupid, gullible, mindless sacrificial lamb, I get angry...I get angry because THAT IS A LIE!

As for McNamara and his band of Ivy League "geniuses", I, and any number of NCOs and junior officers, could have given them some excellent advice, ASSUMING they had been able to locate their own arse long enough to remove their heads from same and listen to it. As it was, it was evident to most of us that said geniuses could not even figure out exactly what it was they wanted us to do, much less how they wanted us to do it. Alas, incompetent civilian command is not a crime (though I have my own opinion as to whether it ought to be).

I am not a hero, and I'm not a victim either; just a soldier who did his best to do a difficult job. I'm not ashamed of anything I did, and I am proud of the magnificent soldiers it was my privilege to command; they are and always will be MY heroes.

About that "anonymous junior who would probably be pulled in at some point..." - somewhere out there in America, is a man who has had a life, raised a family, and gotten old like me, who might have had that life ripped from him before it really began, somewhere in Vietnam, if I had simply walked away. I don't know his name, and he doesn't know mine. It doesn't matter.

Just one more thing; we fought a war in Vietnam, and then we fought a longer and harder war when we got home. No group of American soldiers has ever been quite so despised; spat on, cursed, treated like lepers, as Vietnam vets. I have to believe, that most Americans, with the passage of time, have come to realize how wrong that was, and if that means that no American service man or woman will come home to that sort of reception ever again, well, then in my book, it was worth that too.

 

[Trajan]

Obama, is a hero.

You need to see a Doctor, quick.....

hey, thats what I have been told...*shrugs*....

 

[Trajan]

I am sorry you became sour on the military Mike

I'm not sour on the military. The military is necessary for the defense of the Nation. I am sour on the persistent misuse of our military. I am sour on the ease with which our clearly corrupt government gets away with engaging in unnecessary military aggressions and callling them "wars" in an obvious effort to conflate their reality and purpose with those of WW-II. And I'm sour on the tendency of far too many Americans to believe that simply wearing a uniform qualifies as heroism.

[...]but guess what, in 1936 I am sure you could have founds folks saying same and along came ww2.

Not so. Because between 1936 and WW-II there was nothing to compare with the war crime that was the invasion of Iraq. There was nothing to compare with the war crime called Vietnam. There was not the wholly unnecessary invasion of Grenada. And there was nothing to compare with the unnecessarily protracted and redundantly enacted fighting in Afghanistan. None of these so-called "wars" serve any purpose other than enrichment of the Military Industrial Complex -- which didn't exist prior to WW-II.


Where are these wars? As far as I can recall the United States has not been at war since 1945.

[...]and I know from experience there are at lest 6-7 other spots on the globe where American forces are at risk

Please be more specific about where these situations are and why our troops are at risk there. I know we have military bases all over the world but I don't know why. I do know that a similar policy led to the destruction of Ancient Rome. I also know that one of our nation's most serious problems is the fact that its citizens have largely ignored the warning issued by former President Eisenhower about what then was an emerging Military Industrial Complex but which has since evolved into a massively powerful oligarch.

[...]in uniform and I am not going to split hairs on whether the guys hand I shake was/is an infantryman or a remf/pogue, I never do..... Just because you've spun out doesn't make the statement true or not.

It is what it is and we are all part of the same hypocrisy, some just seem to handle it better.

I have no idea what all of that means.

Not so. Because between 1936 and WW-II there was nothing to compare with the war crime that was the invasion of Iraq. There was nothing to compare with the war crime called Vietnam. There was not the wholly unnecessary invasion of Grenada. And there was nothing to compare with the unnecessarily protracted and redundantly enacted fighting in Afghanistan. None of these so-called "wars" serve any purpose other than enrichment of the Military Industrial Complex -- which didn't exist prior to WW-II.

me thinks some reading of the treatys, agreements and workings of the league of nations etc. between ww1 and 1939 would help you out.


and-

"War Is a Racket"

War Is a Racket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

plenty of people felt that the banana wars, the Philippines etc etc was just more of the same, just becasue Eisenhower named it so, doesn't mean it didn't ostensibly exist before hand. Its just a matter of relative size of the resources committed as to who they were fighting.

Where are these wars? As far as I can recall the United States has not been at war since 1945.

I see....

Q- did you sppt. our actions in Afghanistan when we went in?

 

[Trajan]

Mike,
Thank you for serving our country.....and when I tell you (or anyone else) that, I am NOT being "patronizing", or saying "better you than me", because I have been there, done that.

Then what reason do you suppose you have to thank me? I certainly don't owe you any thanks.

I joined up in 1962, before I went to college, so by the time things heated up in Vietnam, I had finished my active obligation, and was still in the Reserve. I could have avoided Vietnam; all I had to do was not re-up and apply for OCS. I could have let some kid with less experience do the fighting (and maybe the dying) for me, but you know what-after all I've been through, I am damn glad I didn't, and I'd do it again. I'd do it again, because it would not have felt right to do otherwise, not to me.

So you compromised your safety and your future to accommodate some anonymous junior who probably would be pulled in at some point, anyway. Didn't you have anything to live for? A wife? A girl who loved you? Your mother? Someone who would be anguished if you were killed or crippled. How would you explain your action to them?


There were some extremists in the protest movement who voiced such opinions. But that level of protest didn't begin until news of My Lai and other atrocities started leaking and the public began to realize there was no justifiable reason for our presence in Vietnam.

The "war lover" refrain came mainly from the many thousands of protesters who burned their draft cards and simply refused to go.

Bullshit. I hate war, but there's something I hate more-the idea of "peace at any price". So go ahead and call me an "indoctrinated militarist", or whatever else you damn well choose; I don't care, and I've been called worse. I know what I was fighting for, and I don't need or want anyone else telling me how I "should" feel about it.

I don't know about peace at any price but as far as Vietnam was concerned we should have gotten out of there much sooner.

If you know what you were fighting for you should have written to Robert MacNamara, the architect of the Vietnam "police action," and told him. Because he wrote a book at the end of his career, The Fog Of War, in which he clearly admits there was no good reason for our presence there to begin with. Perhaps you could have enlightened him.

By the way, I am a 'three-time volunteer", but I am no hero, never thought I was, or wanted to be. I am a survivor. You want heroes, go look on the Wall; you can find their names right there.

I've never seen The Wall. But I have seen many pictures of it and the only thought it brings to my mind is the terrible waste it represents. It is a monument that for all intents and purposes should have prevented George W. Bush from effectively perpetrating his arrogant crime. The reason it didn't is most Americans prefer to think in terms of heroes rather than brave and willing victims.

ah, the benefits of hindsight,the McNamara apology tour? please. I see the redemption bus. is in full swing.

 

[Smash_Hits]

I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.

Hmmm... another military and veteran hater. What a shocker.

So where did you learn to hate the military? You grow up in a hippie commune? You live in San Franqueerco? You join and got your pussy ass washed out? You a butt boy? What? What did soldiers or the military every do to you other than fight for your rights and your freedom to make you HATE them? ... you fucking rotten piece of dog shit... you make me fucking SICK.

Someone's mad. Notice I never said I hated the military... reading through my post might have cleared that up for you. I actually think the military is a great thing, because it allows us to protect ourselves (and others, if the situation calls for it). However, I'm not going to regard someone as a hero just because they do a dangerous job. I'll respect them, as I will anyone else, but to be a hero you must actively do good in the world. And no, the current military is not protecting our freedom. People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.
I really think you should take a break from rage... I'm not sure why you're calling me "dog shit," "butt boy," and calling me a pussy. I'm not trying to enflame, just trying to bring up a point I believe is quite valid and relevant. What are you, 10 years old?

 

[JBeukema]

Is that why you post every neg rep you get?

Just exposing the cowards who attack me behind the scenes because I judge men as individuals.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.

Hmmm... another military and veteran hater. What a shocker.

So where did you learn to hate the military? You grow up in a hippie commune? You live in San Franqueerco? You join and got your pussy ass washed out? You a butt boy? What? What did soldiers or the military every do to you other than fight for your rights and your freedom to make you HATE them? ... you fucking rotten piece of dog shit... you make me fucking SICK.

Someone's mad. Notice I never said I hated the military... reading through my post might have cleared that up for you. I actually think the military is a great thing, because it allows us to protect ourselves (and others, if the situation calls for it). However, I'm not going to regard someone as a hero just because they do a dangerous job. I'll respect them, as I will anyone else, but to be a hero you must actively do good in the world. And no, the current military is not protecting our freedom. People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.
I really think you should take a break from rage... I'm not sure why you're calling me "dog shit," "butt boy," and calling me a pussy. I'm not trying to enflame, just trying to bring up a point I believe is quite valid and relevant. What are you, 10 years old?

It doesn't matter what our military is doing. For some years there was no conflict, Tens of thousands probably even hundreds of thousands never saw any combat at all. But they wore the uniform. And if they weren't wearing the uniform how long do you think we would have remained free? You only keep your rights as long as we maintain a strong military. For as soon as it weakens someone will assuredly take advantage of that weakness.

A saluted hundreds of Heroes today, I hope you enjoyed your BBQ.....

 

[JBeukema]

Putting on a uniform doesn't suddenly make a man a devil or a saint. Honour and dishonour come with a man's own actions and character, not from the clothes he wears.

Some bring honour to their uniforms and some brings dishonour and infamy.

But this thread will be deleted just like the last time I pointed this out- god forbid we put away the broad brushes and judge men as individuals...

 

[daveman]

People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.

Wrong.

 

[daveman]

Is that why you post every neg rep you get?

Just exposing the cowards who attack me behind the scenes because I judge men as individuals.

Really? I've negged you, AND I attack you out here in the fora.

I think the actual reason is you're just a sissy bedwetter.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Is that why you post every neg rep you get?

Just exposing the cowards who attack me behind the scenes because I judge men as individuals.

Really? I've negged you, AND I attack you out here in the fora.

I think the actual reason is you're just a sissy bedwetter.

I ended up ignoring the slime. Life is so much happier that way.

 

[JBeukema]

People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.

Wrong.

Why did Cheney order NORAD to stand down?

'The plane is ten miles out. Do the orders still stand?'