who would support dropping liberal arts degrees to help colleges?

[Skull Pilot]

What books at the library would you suggest reading to satisfy the requirements to pass examinations in liberal arts subjects?

Look up the books the college courses require and read them.

Duh.

of course, were there no longer the curriculum to reference...

If liberal arts degrees were discontinued, I am sure one could find what used to be taught and what books used to be used in the very same free library.

 

[Diuretic]

I don't know why we are hating on the liberal arts anymore than on the social sciences. My point isn't that such knowledge has no value...of course it does. It's that if we tell an entire generation to attend college because its the pathway to a better life and then we drive them into majors, departments and degrees that have ZERO to little chance of finding employability in the field, we are stealing from our kids.

We KNOW we do not have use for the vast excess of new teachers, new lawyers, etc. we are churning out. I'm not saying don't educate these kids. But what's wrong with driving them into education paths that are better geared to future employment?

Nothing at all, but for me it would be preferable to have someone do an undergraduate BA for example and then narrow it to a more vocationally-oriented approach in post-grad work.

 

[Diuretic]

Look up the books the college courses require and read them.

Duh.

of course, were there no longer the curriculum to reference...

If liberal arts degrees were discontinued, I am sure one could find what used to be taught and what books used to be used in the very same free library.

Why would a library bother to hold the collection?

 

[Skull Pilot]

of course, were there no longer the curriculum to reference...

If liberal arts degrees were discontinued, I am sure one could find what used to be taught and what books used to be used in the very same free library.

Why would a library bother to hold the collection?

That's what libraries do.

Might as well ask why would a library hold on to a book on the Renaissance.

 

[editec]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I'm of the opinion that every undergrad ought to get a BS BEFORE they specialize into other fields.

The last thing a democratic republic needs is highly trained specialists who don't have a clue how to be well informed thinking humans.

People like that become TOOLS for tyrants.

 

[Samson]

I have been told that liberal arts degrees are increasing in their popularity with employers lately. Certainly my husband's joint degrees in journalism and creative writing have been helpful with a wide variety of jobs over the years.

Problem:

Unemployed Recent Grads > Employed Recent Grads

For BA English students buried in student loans, hope of a decent-paying jobs in 5 years does little to eliminate their current poverty and compounding debt.

Join the Army?

 

[Madeline]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I'm of the opinion that every undergrad ought to get a BS BEFORE they specialize into other fields.

The last thing a democratic republic needs is highly trained specialists who don't have a clue how to be well informed thinking humans.

People like that become TOOLS for tyrants.

So anyone who does not hold a BS and at least one advanced degree is a "tool for tyrants"?

Pardon me whilst I barf. I believe I have accidentially swallowed some elist crap.

 

[Diuretic]

If liberal arts degrees were discontinued, I am sure one could find what used to be taught and what books used to be used in the very same free library.

Why would a library bother to hold the collection?

That's what libraries do.

Might as well ask why would a library hold on to a book on the Renaissance.

But how would someone know which books to ask for?

 

[Diuretic]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I'm of the opinion that every undergrad ought to get a BS BEFORE they specialize into other fields.

The last thing a democratic republic needs is highly trained specialists who don't have a clue how to be well informed thinking humans.

People like that become TOOLS for tyrants.

So anyone who does not hold a BS and at least one advanced degree is a "tool for tyrants"?

Pardon me whilst I barf. I believe I have accidentially swallowed some elist crap.

The last thing a democratic republic needs is highly trained specialists who don't have a clue how to be well informed thinking humans

Action T4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[antagon]

Look up the books the college courses require and read them.

Duh.

of course, were there no longer the curriculum to reference...

If liberal arts degrees were discontinued, I am sure one could find what used to be taught and what books used to be used in the very same free library.

if by some magic libarts were stopped, some college would up and offer them again, setting in place the same competitive spiral we've got now. some people really dig faffy degrees and there remains demand for them.

the coursework and the texts are all the product of the universities. the arbitrary get an education culture we have, which is generally positive, is from the sales and promotional effort of universities too, in part.

 

[antagon]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I'm of the opinion that every undergrad ought to get a BS BEFORE they specialize into other fields.

The last thing a democratic republic needs is highly trained specialists who don't have a clue how to be well informed thinking humans.

People like that become TOOLS for tyrants.

i dont quite get it. a BSc in what, exactly? I thought you had to have a BSc/BA to study an advanced degree anyhow.

 

[Annie]

I would like to see liberal arts programs that brought back more classical education curriculum. Even 30 years ago there were too many programs that were 'feel good' rather than educational. I'll admit to being doubtful that the universities would be able to find the faculty to teach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John's_College_(United_States)

This place always fascinated me with its approach.

I've heard of it, never visited the site. This I found interesting:

Dual Degree Program with the University of Maryland School of Law (Annapolis Only)
Students can choose to obtain simultaneously the Master of Arts in Liberal Arts degree in the Graduate Institute at Annapolis and a J.D. degree from the University of Maryland School of Law. Independent application must be made to both institutions. The University of Maryland School of Law will accept nine credits awarded by St. John's College for satisfactory completion of the Politics and Society segment of the Liberal Arts program. The director will review nine law school credits for transfer to the M.A.L.A. degree prior to the beginning of the third semester. Details about this Dual Degree program are available from the Annapolis Graduate Institute office and the University of Maryland School of Law, which can be reached c/o Dean of Admissions, The University of Maryland School of Law, 515 West Lombard Street, Baltimore, Maryland 21201-1786, 410- 706-3492, The University of Maryland School of Law.

Might be interesting for 'retirement.'

 

[Madeline]

Dual degree programs are not uncommon at law schools. Even as early as the 1980's there was great fear that a "mere" law degree would not be enough to propel one into the middle class, nevermind beyond. Some of this hyper-education may be warranteed. No lawyer can be admitted to the US Patent Bar without a degree in Engineering of some sort. But who would want to lose out on a patent infringement case because his lawyer only studied Comparative Religion before going to law school and messed up his mechanical drawings?

It is the viewpoint that colleges and universities cannot be held accountable for the public funds they absorb or the social benefits they yield that yanks my chain. A public college or university is not a "business". It is not privately owned and its purpose is not to compete in a market for profit. It is more akin to a hospital. It is funded at adequate but not extravagent levels for its necessary public purpose -- educating students to enable them to earn middle class incomes.

Colleges and universities are not "think tanks". We actually have think tanks in this country and if we need more, by God, let's get on that...but diverting colleges and universities away from their primary purpose to meet this perceived need is wrong in my view.

These schools are also not plantations where little instructors go to grow up someday to be tenured professors. The whole labor pool of college professors has one primary purpose -- to educate students. if they succeed at that, great. If not, why not handle that like any other substandard employee performance?

These schools are not taxpayer-supported research facilities for Big Pharma so it can lay off even more R & D expense on the public. This business of getting grants has mushrooming and now its also about acquiring profitable patent rights for the schools themselves, or a share in them. When the schools' administration values these functions more highly than the primary purpose of educating students into employability, those administrators have failed and should be viewed as yet more employees with substandard performance evaluations.

You underperform or absentee yourself at McDonald's, you get fired. It should be no different at colleges and universities. Professors and administrators are not some new class of American royalty or clergy above reproach...they are public employees.

This all sounds harsh and anti-intellectual, but folks, I have a kid coming out of college now with a shiny new Masters degree. I have two neices and a nephew all in various stages of starting, finishing or proceeding through college or above. All my friends my age do as well. And every single last one of these kids is chasing that degree because they believe:

If you need a chance in this country, go to college.

Well dammit, I'd like to see someone deliver on that promise, and offer them a real chance to succeed.

 

[uscitizen]

We don't have think tanks in America. We have political strategy justificiation groups.

 

[Barb]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

Excuse the fuck out of me.

My BA (The A for arts, thank yew, and four years not wasted), was an interdisciplinary degree, and when I finish my MA, it will be a multidisciplinary degree. Liberal arts gives students the opportunity to research their given subject or subjects through more than one discipline, and such an approach gives a more comprehensive understanding of those subjects than a pure science degree offers.

Not for nothing, but students pay tuition, they are not obligated to create revenue as well.

 

[Barb]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

That is so ridiculous.

Today was "Kid's Day" at work. I had the kids from 11 to 11:30. I taped a list of words to the cabinet behind me that included:

Math
Science
Art
English
Creative Writing
Geography
Typing
Public Speaking
Computer Skills

Then I went through each one to show how they applied to engineering.

Art for instance. To take a computer model of the companies product, then light it with the correct colors and fall-off, apply the correct textures and perspective. To use the existing model and find the finished product on company brochures and the company website is something I never would have been able to do if I hadn't taken "stage lighting" and "drawing" as electives in college.

Reports and product description are pure "creative writing".

Since 60% of the company's business is overseas, it's good to know something about the people you will be working with.

I gave a paper with each of these listed, including the reason, to each kid to take home and put on their refrigerator. I told them, "If anyone ever tells you that you will not use what you learned in school ever again, then you look at this list. You will know they are wrong".

And for those on USMB who laugh at education, whether it's art or science, literature or math - you are wrong.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rdean again.

 

[Madeline]

Not for nothing, but students pay tuition, they are not obligated to create revenue as well.

Amen, sista. I get alumni donation solicitations from every college or university I ever attended.

Fuck them all. I have paid my tuition. I have even finally paid my student loans.

What charitable donations I can afford to make I give to causes I support, not to overpay debts I retired 30 or 40 years ago. I don't see the ATT Co. circa 1969 trying to solicit more from me for my first telephone bill either. Why should public schools do this?

 

[Barb]

I have been told that liberal arts degrees are increasing in their popularity with employers lately. Certainly my husband's joint degrees in journalism and creative writing have been helpful with a wide variety of jobs over the years.

Problem:

Unemployed Recent Grads > Employed Recent Grads

For BA English students buried in student loans, hope of a decent-paying jobs in 5 years does little to eliminate their current poverty and compounding debt.

Meanwhile, that has more to do with aggregate demand than it does supply. More graduates improves supply, but fewer jobs to compete for lessens the value of human capital and puts that supply to waste.

 

[antagon]

It is the viewpoint that colleges and universities cannot be held accountable for the public funds they absorb or the social benefits they yield that yanks my chain. A public college or university is not a "business". It is not privately owned and its purpose is not to compete in a market for profit. It is more akin to a hospital. It is funded at adequate but not extravagent levels for its necessary public purpose -- educating students to enable them to earn middle class incomes.

this is not an accurate perspective on unis. public schools are businesses out for profits, a posture which helps them to be competitive and efficient with the government's and private endowment. a university education is not a guarantee of a decent income, nor is that their express purpose. the concept of going through a process which will preclude the neccessity for further competition in the job market is a fallacy. universities do not promote that, rather, i feel students and parents subscribe to it after reading salary summaries and average earnings by ed level statistics. this is not a commune. you have to compete for a job or make one for yourself. you should be able to appreciate a degree as a qualification and preparation for this fact and nothing more. in that light, american universities, public and private do a fantastic job. wish we could squeeze that out of our public highschools.

Colleges and universities are not "think tanks". We actually have think tanks in this country and if we need more, by God, let's get on that...but diverting colleges and universities away from their primary purpose to meet this perceived need is wrong in my view.

well, they are think tanks for research. no need for redundancy when the future contributors and the most brilliant minds are often profs and students at universities.

These schools are also not plantations where little instructors go to grow up someday to be tenured professors. The whole labor pool of college professors has one primary purpose -- to educate students. if they succeed at that, great. If not, why not handle that like any other substandard employee performance?

what makes you think that our universities are underperforming? furthermore, learning from nobel laureates is an honor and an inspiration. the fact that universities have renown profs, albeit occupied in research in addition to teaching, is part of what weights some schools over others on your all-important resume. you want state schools to digress from this. why not advocate community colleges instead of universities for your kin?

These schools are not taxpayer-supported research facilities for Big Pharma so it can lay off even more R & D expense on the public. This business of getting grants has mushrooming and now its also about acquiring profitable patent rights for the schools themselves, or a share in them. When the schools' administration values these functions more highly than the primary purpose of educating students into employability, those administrators have failed and should be viewed as yet more employees with substandard performance evaluations.

what'll it be? lube jobs for grads to said big pharma companies or let foreign unis handle it instead. i'm glad private schools have no pressure to abandon opportunities for profit, esteem or which stand to put their students ahead in the game. most decent pubs are right to snap at such opportunities, too.

...And every single last one of these kids is chasing that degree because they believe:

If you need a chance in this country, go to college.

Well dammit, I'd like to see someone deliver on that promise, and offer them a real chance to succeed.

again with the parent/student delusion that a degree is all it takes to succeed in life.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I had no idea the primary purpose of a public university was to generate profit.

In that case we need to drop all athletic programs as well, except football in a small handful of schools.

Also, lets just not educate students at all, because that just distracts the profit generating professors from their research.