who would support dropping liberal arts degrees to help colleges?

[Modbert]

As someone who goes to college and is majoring in Accounting, this has to be one of the stupidest ideas I have ever read in my time here at USMB. And I've read a lot of stupid things.

The people who are in these programs already would either transfer to another college that has the programs, drop out, or go to a program that they neither like or will want to get a job in.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

These schools are also not plantations where little instructors go to grow up someday to be tenured professors. The whole labor pool of college professors has one primary purpose -- to educate students. if they succeed at that, great. If not, why not handle that like any other substandard employee performance?

Actually, some professors are research professors, and their primary purpose is research, not teaching. Sorry, but anyone who teaches a single 3 hour class per semester does not have teaching as their primary purpose.

You underperform or absentee yourself at McDonald's, you get fired. It should be no different at colleges and universities.

Ok. So you want to fire professors if they miss a single day? That's kind of stupid. Good luck attracting professors to that University.

Professors and administrators are not some new class of American royalty or clergy above reproach...they are public employees.

I'm curious as to how you equate "tenure" with "royalty". Last time I checked, you become royalty by being born into it, but to become a tenured physics professor, you have to work your butt off for about 15 years and move at least 3 times.

If you need a chance in this country, go to college.

Suckers.

Well dammit, I'd like to see someone deliver on that promise, and offer them a real chance to succeed.[/COLOR]

You act as if their inability to succeed is the fault of the college professors. Sorry, but college students are grown-ups, they are responsible for teaching themselves. If you go to college and don't learn anything, its your fault.

 

[Barb]

Not for nothing, but students pay tuition, they are not obligated to create revenue as well.

Amen, sista. I get alumni donation solicitations from every college or university I ever attended.

Fuck them all. I have paid my tuition. I have even finally paid my student loans.

What charitable donations I can afford to make I give to causes I support, not to overpay debts I retired 30 or 40 years ago. I don't see the ATT Co. circa 1969 trying to solicit more from me for my first telephone bill either. Why should public schools do this?

Thank you Meanwhile, if the opportunity presents itself, I will contribute to my college. They've been very supportive, and as its a state college, I would consider it to be an honor to contribute to the next generation when I can.

My point was that it is insane to think that students should be limited to any curriculum based on what revenue the study would provide to the college. I also take issue with the idea that colleges and Universities should shape their offered programs around whatever puppy mill wage slave career path serves the interests of the business community (a fickle lot).

 

[blu]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I had no idea the primary purpose of a public university was to generate profit.

In that case we need to drop all athletic programs as well, except football in a small handful of schools.

Also, lets just not educate students at all, because that just distracts the profit generating professors from their research.

actually research students generate a lot of money for hte school. for each reseach grant they get, the school gets money off the top plus their professor gets extra paycheck, plus there is usually money in it for new equipment, plus the student also gets a stipend

 

[blu]

As someone who goes to college and is majoring in Accounting, this has to be one of the stupidest ideas I have ever read in my time here at USMB. And I've read a lot of stupid things.

The people who are in these programs already would either transfer to another college that has the programs, drop out, or go to a program that they neither like or will want to get a job in.

the horror of having to study something real!

 

[Modbert]

the horror of having to study something real!

Real? Every major at my college has people who fulfill a role in society. What do you consider to be "real"? Are artists not real? Are historians not real? How about writers and journalists?

I mean what do you consider to be real? Please, amuse me.

 

[elvis]

the horror of having to study something real!

Real? Every major at my college has people who fulfill a role in society. What do you consider to be "real"? Are artists not real? Are historians not real? How about writers and journalists?

I mean what do you consider to be real? Please, amuse me.

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

 

[Madeline]

anatgon wrote:

wish we could squeeze that out of our public highschools.

The public college is the new high school. It has been that way for some time. I attended law school in the late 1980's with kids who did not know that a dependent clause is not a sentence, or what subject-verb agreement means. They had never written an essay exam or a paper during their college years. It was all multiple choice exams. And these were the children of privilege.

My local community college offers remedial reading classes -- for the functionally illiterate, to students enrolled in regular first year college level classes, not as a side action to help the community at large. The entire US public education system is under enormous strain, to the point of breaking.

well, they are think tanks for research. no need for redundancy when the future contributors and the most brilliant minds are often profs and students at universities.

That is not how I view a think tank -- that's a research lab, and yes, some research does legitimately belong on college and university campuses. If not, how would students learn to conduct solid experiments, etc.? In my view, a think tank is a brain trust that contemplates mainly theory. Futurists. Philosophers. Economists. Etc. They explore the outer limits of knowledge and the evolution of knowledge.

what makes you think that our universities are underperforming? furthermore, learning from nobel laureates is an honor and an inspiration. the fact that universities have renown profs, albeit occupied in research in addition to teaching, is part of what weights some schools over others on your all-important resume. you want state schools to digress from this. why not advocate community colleges instead of universities for your kin?

I think the schools underperform when, as we all know, MOST new college grads cannot find work in their field...or at least work that pays a living wage.

Who said anything about nobel prize laureates? Are you dreaming? Do you seriously think the U of Cleveland or U of Cincinnati, etc. is going to score such a world class individual as a regular professor? Maybe as a speaker, but c'mon..on the faculty?

Let me tell you a dirty little secret about one of the biggest drivers of rankings among state schools. Alumni success. Even 20 years later, I am still economically gaining from strides my law school has made up the ranks over the years since I graduated. To keep that wonderful mojo going, I'd do all I could to help a new grad. Or an old grad. Likewise, alumni failure drags a school down.

I'm a huge fan of community colleges. But all my loved ones happen to be far beyond the second year of college level.

what'll it be? lube jobs for grads to said big pharma companies or let foreign unis handle it instead. i'm glad private schools have no pressure to abandon opportunities for profit, esteem or which stand to put their students ahead in the game. most decent pubs are right to snap at such opportunities, too.

Yes, exporting R & D overseas is a legitimate concern. All the trade deficits -- especially jobs -- are alarming.

again with the parent/student delusion that a degree is all it takes to succeed in life.

No, but acquiring a debt load of $50,000 or $75,000 and spending 6 or 8 years pursuing a career goal that doesn't exist is a recipe for failure. Who do my kids owe it to, to fail? They are probably going to be the most taxed generation to ever live in this nation. Don't they deserve a chance? Or are fat cat professors and administrators just that much more precious to you? Because you cannot have both...and my vote is with the needs of the students coming first. Not only, not ignoring any of the other beneficiaries of the education process, etc.

Just FIRST.

 

[antagon]

the horror of having to study something real!

Real? Every major at my college has people who fulfill a role in society. What do you consider to be "real"? Are artists not real? Are historians not real? How about writers and journalists?

I mean what do you consider to be real? Please, amuse me.

while folks studying in the school of engineering are the realest, most degrees are above the real-bar.

the idea that libarts could be abolished is absurd, much like many other aspects of the blu world view.

 

[Barb]

the horror of having to study something real!

Real? Every major at my college has people who fulfill a role in society. What do you consider to be "real"? Are artists not real? Are historians not real? How about writers and journalists?

I mean what do you consider to be real? Please, amuse me.

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

 

[elvis]

Real? Every major at my college has people who fulfill a role in society. What do you consider to be "real"? Are artists not real? Are historians not real? How about writers and journalists?

I mean what do you consider to be real? Please, amuse me.

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

 

[blu]

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

the sane person would get the full degree in CS and minor in french lit

 

[Madeline]

Barb wrote:

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

I'm not suggesting that talent and desire should play no role in an individual kid's choice of path of study. Just that the institutions themselves should be nimble, morphing with the emerging economy and best poised to graduate employable kids. It would be a goal, one that could be measured. But not one that any institution could achieve 100%. I'd be grateful for 50%. 75% would make me positively thrilled. And I don't think that's totally out of the question.

 

[elvis]

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

the sane person would get the full degree in CS and minor in french lit

right, but we're talking about someone who LOVES french lit and finds computer science boring. hypothetical here.

 

[Modbert]

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

The same could be said of any field at any time though, which is why the comment is stupid.

 

[Barb]

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

Will it? Do you know how many computer science majors and those experienced in the field have been replaced by outsourcing? As for the French lit degree, there is currently a dearth of teachers. You could also apply to the state department or the UN. One would have to know French to study French Lit, and a comprehensive understanding of French culture would be useful in many places. That would qualify one to work in many French speaking countries. Maybe you could diversify a smidge and use both. Work as a computer expert in one of those countries. Computer forensics? But without the french, or understanding of the culture, you might not be as useful with simply the computer science, at least in those locations, and would be stuck here in the US, where those jobs are largely outsourced to India.

 

[elvis]

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

The same could be said of any field at any time though, which is why the comment is stupid.

I can't imagine how computer science would ever not be useful.

 

[elvis]

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

Will it? Do you know how many computer science majors and those experienced in the field have been replaced by outsourcing? As for the French lit degree, there is currently a dearth of teachers. You could also apply to the state department or the UN. One would have to know French to study French Lit, and a comprehensive understanding of French culture would be useful in many places. That would qualify one to work in many French speaking countries. Maybe you could diversify a smidge and use both. Work as a computer expert in one of those countries. Computer forensics? But without the french, or understanding of the culture, you might not be as useful with simply the computer science, at least in those locations, and would be stuck here in the US, where those jobs are largely outsourced to India.

The job market IN the United States for computer science is expected to explode in the next decade, especially if you choose something like security. how many job openings are available in the state department?

 

[blu]

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

Will it? Do you know how many computer science majors and those experienced in the field have been replaced by outsourcing? As for the French lit degree, there is currently a dearth of teachers. You could also apply to the state department or the UN. One would have to know French to study French Lit, and a comprehensive understanding of French culture would be useful in many places. That would qualify one to work in many French speaking countries. Maybe you could diversify a smidge and use both. Work as a computer expert in one of those countries. Computer forensics? But without the french, or understanding of the culture, you might not be as useful with simply the computer science, at least in those locations, and would be stuck here in the US, where those jobs are largely outsourced to India.

I have tried to debunk this so many times.... only the shit jobs that no CS major would want or take are outsourced. the jobs that require actual CS related skills are plentiful here and pay extremely well if you are dedicated and they aren't going anywhere. People in india are only good for having them copy/patse some shit java code together for $5/h.

and whats up with the random "comptuer forensics?" comment? seemed to come out of nowhere

 

[blu]

He is assuming that only certain fields are useful long-term, as there is a limited number of jobs in many fields.

The same could be said of any field at any time though, which is why the comment is stupid.

I can't imagine how computer science would ever not be useful.

won't happen anytime soon...