who would support dropping liberal arts degrees to help colleges?

[blu]

Drop the law degrees, we have too many lawyers already. And increase the medical degrees.

this would work as well

 

[uscitizen]

Chuck out liberal arts? What, like history? Employers need people with high level critical thinking and other cognitive skills, heck the biggest mining company in the world was hiring history graduates a few years ago and using their analytical skills to help their business.

what a stupid decision, hire history majors instead of math/sci/engineering majors whose whole degree exists on analytical processing of how everythign in the universe works.

and you say history majros have better critical thinking skills than those doing engineering and math

Math people have great difficulty thinking outside the box.
And no sense of humor at all, the only ones with less of a sense of humor are economists.
Which is math related.

 

[Polk]

Chuck out liberal arts? What, like history? Employers need people with high level critical thinking and other cognitive skills, heck the biggest mining company in the world was hiring history graduates a few years ago and using their analytical skills to help their business.

Exactemundo ... plus, who really needs to know why politicians decide they way they do (PolSci) or why have certain armed conflicts gone for as long as they have (History/Int'l Affairs) or how to solve such conflicts (Int'l Affairs/Conflict Resolution). Such things are just so dang useless! We can see it in the world we live in today after all!

Only a douche would propose to throw out the liberal arts.

This gets into another issue. While they're often considered "liberal arts", several of the things you listed (political science, international relations) are actually social sciences.

 

[Polk]

Chuck out liberal arts? What, like history? Employers need people with high level critical thinking and other cognitive skills, heck the biggest mining company in the world was hiring history graduates a few years ago and using their analytical skills to help their business.

what a stupid decision, hire history majors instead of math/sci/engineering majors whose whole degree exists on analytical processing of how everythign in the universe works.

and you say history majros have better critical thinking skills than those doing engineering and math

Yeah, they often do. Math and science are linear. You have a set problem and are looking for a set solution. That's good in a lot of cases, but don't do much in dynamic situations.

 

[Samson]

Chuck out liberal arts? What, like history? Employers need people with high level critical thinking and other cognitive skills, heck the biggest mining company in the world was hiring history graduates a few years ago and using their analytical skills to help their business.

what a stupid decision, hire history majors instead of math/sci/engineering majors whose whole degree exists on analytical processing of how everythign in the universe works.

and you say history majros have better critical thinking skills than those doing engineering and math

Math people have great difficulty thinking outside the box.
And no sense of humor at all, the only ones with less of a sense of humor are economists.
Which is math related.

What "box?"

 

[blu]

Chuck out liberal arts? What, like history? Employers need people with high level critical thinking and other cognitive skills, heck the biggest mining company in the world was hiring history graduates a few years ago and using their analytical skills to help their business.

what a stupid decision, hire history majors instead of math/sci/engineering majors whose whole degree exists on analytical processing of how everythign in the universe works.

and you say history majros have better critical thinking skills than those doing engineering and math

Yeah, they often do. Math and science are linear. You have a set problem and are looking for a set solution. That's good in a lot of cases, but don't do much in dynamic situations.

have you ever solved a proof?

 

[Polk]

what a stupid decision, hire history majors instead of math/sci/engineering majors whose whole degree exists on analytical processing of how everythign in the universe works.

and you say history majros have better critical thinking skills than those doing engineering and math

Yeah, they often do. Math and science are linear. You have a set problem and are looking for a set solution. That's good in a lot of cases, but don't do much in dynamic situations.

have you ever solved a proof?

Yeah.

 

[eagleseven]

Math people have great difficulty thinking outside the box.

Once you move beyond freshman-level coursework, higher mathematics requires intensely abstract thinking in unorthodox manners.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who can imagine a figure moving in five dimensions is uncreative?

 

[Samson]

Math people have great difficulty thinking outside the box.

Once you move beyond freshman-level coursework, higher mathematics requires intensely abstract thinking in unorthodox manners.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who can imagine a figure moving in five dimensions is uncreative?

 

[blu]

Math people have great difficulty thinking outside the box.

Once you move beyond freshman-level coursework, higher mathematics requires intensely abstract thinking in unorthodox manners.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who can imagine a figure moving in five dimensions is uncreative?

i don't think they get it

 

[WillowTree]

I have nothing against Liberal Arts programs but they have to do a better job of teaching job skills to make graduates immediately employable

employable by whom? the gubbmint?

 

[eagleseven]

What "box?"

This box.

 

[Samson]

I have nothing against Liberal Arts programs but they have to do a better job of teaching job skills to make graduates immediately employable

employable by whom? the gubbmint?

Or Starbucks.

 

[Madeline]

I have a novel idea. How about, rather than students serving the needs of colleges and universities, the institutions serve the needs of students?

CLOSE A FEW.

At others, shut down some departments.

We do not need 200 law schools (depending on how you count) nor an additional 400,000 or so new lawyers annually. Quite apart from any other bad effect on society, these schools are graduating people with massive debt (usually) for student loans and hopes for a career in a field so saturated that many/most are doomed to be disappointed.

News: Too Many Law Schools? - Inside Higher Ed

We do not need 252,000 new psychology majors annually, nor 413,000 new social science majors. Many/most of these people cannot find work in their field of study.

nsf.gov - SRS An Overview of Science, Engineering, and Health Graduates: 2006 - US National Science Foundation (NSF)

OPEN a few more medical schools, and force a high percent of students to study family medicine.

OPEN a few more engineering, math, computer science and other hard science schools.

Force the institutions to provide students with reliable DOL data about the future of any occupation they are allegedly studying to enter. If we need fewer teachers K-12 (which we do, regardless of the economy, because population is growing more slowly) then CLOSE some education departments, raise the entrance standards at those that remain, and force institutions to find ways to retool higher education paths, so that other students are shunted into new career paths that really exist.

Colleges and universities should stop looking on the student body, alumni and donation/grant arenas as a place to raise a field of hay while the rest of us languish. They have a PRIMARY purpose for existing...to educate the young so they can contribute. If the institution cannot achieve this PRIMARY goal, it should be closed.

 

[Avatar4321]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

 

[eagleseven]

OPEN a few more medical schools, and force a high percent of students to study family medicine.

No need to force students into anything. There are already far more pre-meds, than there are spots at medical schools. Create more slots, and we will have more doctors.

Force the institutions to provide students with reliable DOL data about the future of any occupation they are allegedly studying to enter. If we need fewer teachers K-12 (which we do, regardless of the economy, because population is growing more slowly) then CLOSE some education departments, raise the entrance standards at those that remain, and force institutions to find ways to retool higher education paths, so that other students are shunted into new career paths that really exist.

Again, no need to force these institutions into any of these actions. The current system exists because of perverse government incentives.

Eliminate government subsidies of higher education, and these problems will solve themselves. If there are too many teachers, word will spread that there are no jobs in teaching, and students paying big $$$ to attend school will not waste time studying to be a teacher.

Colleges and universities should stop looking on the student body, alumni and donation/grant arenas as a place to raise a field of hay while the rest of us languish. They have a PRIMARY purpose for existing...to educate the young so they can contribute. If the institution cannot achieve this PRIMARY goal, it should be closed.

American Universities provide every resource necessary for students to launch their careers. The fact is, most American 18-year-olds are simply too immature to utilize all that is available, and so fall into useless majors. Nobody is forcing you to take basket-weaving.

I have never met an engineer who thought his college education was a waste of time or money.

Higher education is simply not meant for everyone, despite what our politicians seem to believe.

 

[Madeline]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

Shhh. If the America Bar Association were to hear you, you'd get a real spanking. What's a domain without any dominions?

 

[Madeline]

OPEN a few more medical schools, and force a high percent of students to study family medicine.

No need to force students into anything. There are already far more pre-meds, than there are spots at medical schools. Create more slots, and we will have more doctors.

Force the institutions to provide students with reliable DOL data about the future of any occupation they are allegedly studying to enter. If we need fewer teachers K-12 (which we do, regardless of the economy, because population is growing more slowly) then CLOSE some education departments, raise the entrance standards at those that remain, and force institutions to find ways to retool higher education paths, so that other students are shunted into new career paths that really exist.

Again, no need to force these institutions into any of these actions. The current system exists because of perverse government incentives.

Eliminate government subsidies of higher education, and these problems will solve themselves. If there are too many teachers, word will spread that there are no jobs in teaching, and students paying big $$$ to attend school will not waste time studying to be a teacher.

I disagree. The institution offering to graduate 10,000 teachers and sociology majors annually needs to be CLOSED to prevent students from wasting years, crippling themselves with debt and draining away their labor while the professors et al congratulate themselves on another "successful" year.

Colleges and universities should stop looking on the student body, alumni and donation/grant arenas as a place to raise a field of hay while the rest of us languish. They have a PRIMARY purpose for existing...to educate the young so they can contribute. If the institution cannot achieve this PRIMARY goal, it should be closed.

American Universities provide every resource necessary for students to launch their careers. The fact is, most American 18-year-olds are simply too immature to utilize all that is available, and so fall into useless majors. Nobody is forcing you to take basket-weaving.

I have never met an engineer who thought his college education was a waste of time or money.

Higher education is simply not meant for everyone, despite what our politicians seem to believe.

I completely agree, and what's more, I resent this growing idea that no one can hope to achieve a middle class lifestyle without an "advanced" degree...that a mere BS or BA is no longer enough.

What bullshit. Who can honestly say that what they learned in their Masters Degree program (mine is in Sociology, can you tell?) was essential or even helpful to earning a living? Degrees are rarely related directly to what someone does for a living...they've become some weird sort of "finishing school" assuring employers that the applicant can string a grammatical sentence together or run a 10 key calculator.

Somehow, we need to address the employment needs of high school graduates who lack the interest or peculiar intellectual skill needed to acquire a Masters, PhD or other advanced degree. And don't say Vocational Schools...I think what we need are more entreprenurial supports, like the Small Business Administration, as well as apprentice programs and the like. We over-value the sort of intelligence that allows someone to fling fancy bullshit and undervalue the type that allows someone to swing a hammer and build a house. And just look where THAT has gotten us.

 

[rdean]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

That is so ridiculous.

Today was "Kid's Day" at work. I had the kids from 11 to 11:30. I taped a list of words to the cabinet behind me that included:

Math
Science
Art
English
Creative Writing
Geography
Typing
Public Speaking
Computer Skills

Then I went through each one to show how they applied to engineering.

Art for instance. To take a computer model of the companies product, then light it with the correct colors and fall-off, apply the correct textures and perspective. To use the existing model and find the finished product on company brochures and the company website is something I never would have been able to do if I hadn't taken "stage lighting" and "drawing" as electives in college.

Reports and product description are pure "creative writing".

Since 60% of the company's business is overseas, it's good to know something about the people you will be working with.

I gave a paper with each of these listed, including the reason, to each kid to take home and put on their refrigerator. I told them, "If anyone ever tells you that you will not use what you learned in school ever again, then you look at this list. You will know they are wrong".

And for those on USMB who laugh at education, whether it's art or science, literature or math - you are wrong.

 

[Avatar4321]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

Shhh. If the America Bar Association were to hear you, you'd get a real spanking. What's a domain without any dominions?

I'd tell it to the face of the leadership if I could.