who would support dropping liberal arts degrees to help colleges?

[blu]

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

the sane person would get the full degree in CS and minor in french lit

right, but we're talking about someone who LOVES french lit and finds computer science boring. hypothetical here.

yea i avoided this issue because I knew since high school I would do comp sci. I am not really sure what I would do if i loved something that had a crap job/career prospect vs something I don't like as much to get better paid. Personally I think goign through 4 years of comp sci and hating it/finding it boring would be really hard to do since you have to put so much time in it. I would probably end up double majoring honestly or get an undergrad in french lit (going with your example) and then do a comptuer science masters, since that lets you skip quite a few classes that undergrads have to take.

 

[blu]

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

Will it? Do you know how many computer science majors and those experienced in the field have been replaced by outsourcing? As for the French lit degree, there is currently a dearth of teachers. You could also apply to the state department or the UN. One would have to know French to study French Lit, and a comprehensive understanding of French culture would be useful in many places. That would qualify one to work in many French speaking countries. Maybe you could diversify a smidge and use both. Work as a computer expert in one of those countries. Computer forensics? But without the french, or understanding of the culture, you might not be as useful with simply the computer science, at least in those locations, and would be stuck here in the US, where those jobs are largely outsourced to India.

The job market IN the United States for computer science is expected to explode in the next decade, especially if you choose something like security. how many job openings are available in the state department?

yep and you can bet all those new cyber security centers aren't going to be outsourcing national security to india

 

[Barb]

Barb wrote:

But as the fields are so fluidly changing, and one replaces the other in prominence as fast as the students are graduating from the degree the guidance department in any HS targeted as a "hot job" four to six years ago, a student would be better served to follow their interest instead of being herded en masse to what might be obsolete in four years.

Do what you love, and you will be paid to play every day of your life.

I'm not suggesting that talent and desire should play no role in an individual kid's choice of path of study. Just that the institutions themselves should be nimble, morphing with the emerging economy and best poised to graduate employable kids. It would be a goal, one that could be measured. But not one that any institution could achieve 100%. I'd be grateful for 50%. 75% would make me positively thrilled. And I don't think that's totally out of the question.

They aren't nimble though, and I agree that's a problem. Thing is, the business community isn't as communicative as one might expect, and they have a profit motive at heart when signaling or projecting higher vacancies in certain fields. When there's a deficit of talent, they pay more, but where there is a surplus, they pay less - even for highly specialized talent.

 

[antagon]

No, but acquiring a debt load of $50,000 or $75,000 and spending 6 or 8 years pursuing a career goal that doesn't exist is a recipe for failure. Who do my kids owe it to, to fail? They are probably going to be the most taxed generation to ever live in this nation. Don't they deserve a chance? Or are fat cat professors and administrators just that much more precious to you? Because you cannot have both...and my vote is with the needs of the students coming first. Not only, not ignoring any of the other beneficiaries of the education process, etc.

Just FIRST.

that was a humble law school from the sound of it. grammar deficiencies in grad school?

i've been blessed with private ed for nearly my entire life, including university. i've got to admit, i dont know anything about the conditions in some state colleges. the university of california schools seem great, and their students quite bright, even through my prejudiced lens.

perhaps your frustration is misplaced. what should education really do more in order to secure a job for your kids?

i believe that in another decade, an additional third of the population wont have any jobs. half in the decade to follow. the era of labor intensive industry and services is evaporating by way of exponents. along with that, the era that you can white man yourself a job, degree yourself a job, masters yourself a job, etc... is by-gone.

prep junior accordingly.

 

[blu]

No, but acquiring a debt load of $50,000 or $75,000 and spending 6 or 8 years pursuing a career goal that doesn't exist is a recipe for failure. Who do my kids owe it to, to fail? They are probably going to be the most taxed generation to ever live in this nation. Don't they deserve a chance? Or are fat cat professors and administrators just that much more precious to you? Because you cannot have both...and my vote is with the needs of the students coming first. Not only, not ignoring any of the other beneficiaries of the education process, etc.

Just FIRST.

that was a humble law school from the sound of it. grammar deficiencies in grad school?

i've been blessed with private ed for nearly my entire life, including university. i've got to admit, i dont know anything about the conditions in some state colleges. the university of california schools seem great, and their students quite bright, even through my prejudiced lens.

perhaps your frustration is misplaced. what should education really do more in order to secure a job for your kids?

i believe that in another decade, an additional third of the population wont have any jobs. half in the decade to follow. the era of labor intensive industry and services is evaporating by way of exponents. along with that, the era that you can white man yourself a job, degree yourself a job, masters yourself a job, etc... is by-gone.

prep junior accordingly.

yep. I started a thread some time ago about this. almost all jobs except those that require new research will be done by robots within our kids lifetime. even the maintenance and creation of new robots will be done by existing robots once the technology has spread and matures.

there will be a new economoy born and it won't be mass labor based

 

[Barb]

ok. say I can do computer science but I love french literature. what jobs can I get in french literature? should I say screw computer science even though the job market in that field will explode in the next ten years?

Will it? Do you know how many computer science majors and those experienced in the field have been replaced by outsourcing? As for the French lit degree, there is currently a dearth of teachers. You could also apply to the state department or the UN. One would have to know French to study French Lit, and a comprehensive understanding of French culture would be useful in many places. That would qualify one to work in many French speaking countries. Maybe you could diversify a smidge and use both. Work as a computer expert in one of those countries. Computer forensics? But without the french, or understanding of the culture, you might not be as useful with simply the computer science, at least in those locations, and would be stuck here in the US, where those jobs are largely outsourced to India.

I have tried to debunk this so many times.... only the shit jobs that no CS major would want or take are outsourced. the jobs that require actual CS related skills are plentiful here and pay extremely well if you are dedicated and they aren't going anywhere. People in india are only good for having them copy/patse some shit java code together for $5/h.

and whats up with the random "comptuer forensics?" comment? seemed to come out of nowhere

Please provide a link to information where computer tech jobs are not being in sourced or outsourced. There are only so many SC "skilled" jobs (high pay) available, and many start and end at the bottom. Its become a puppy mill.

The forensics is a specialty, and one that may provide a higher income. That skilled thing, and something Elvis might have been referencing when he referenced the security industry. Maybe not though. Security includes a ton of low wage jobs monitoring home or business security systems.

 

[Barb]

Will it? Do you know how many computer science majors and those experienced in the field have been replaced by outsourcing? As for the French lit degree, there is currently a dearth of teachers. You could also apply to the state department or the UN. One would have to know French to study French Lit, and a comprehensive understanding of French culture would be useful in many places. That would qualify one to work in many French speaking countries. Maybe you could diversify a smidge and use both. Work as a computer expert in one of those countries. Computer forensics? But without the french, or understanding of the culture, you might not be as useful with simply the computer science, at least in those locations, and would be stuck here in the US, where those jobs are largely outsourced to India.

The job market IN the United States for computer science is expected to explode in the next decade, especially if you choose something like security. how many job openings are available in the state department?

yep and you can bet all those new cyber security centers aren't going to be outsourcing national security to india

Yeah, unthinkable. Its not like the government didn't try to outsource port authority to Dubai some years back.

 

[elvis]

The job market IN the United States for computer science is expected to explode in the next decade, especially if you choose something like security. how many job openings are available in the state department?

yep and you can bet all those new cyber security centers aren't going to be outsourcing national security to india

Yeah, unthinkable. Its not like the government didn't try to outsource port authority to Dubai some years back.

Bush isn't president anymore.

 

[Barb]

yep and you can bet all those new cyber security centers aren't going to be outsourcing national security to india

Yeah, unthinkable. Its not like the government didn't try to outsource port authority to Dubai some years back.

Bush isn't president anymore.

So that could NEVER happen, ever, ever again.

Got it.

 

[blu]

Will it? Do you know how many computer science majors and those experienced in the field have been replaced by outsourcing? As for the French lit degree, there is currently a dearth of teachers. You could also apply to the state department or the UN. One would have to know French to study French Lit, and a comprehensive understanding of French culture would be useful in many places. That would qualify one to work in many French speaking countries. Maybe you could diversify a smidge and use both. Work as a computer expert in one of those countries. Computer forensics? But without the french, or understanding of the culture, you might not be as useful with simply the computer science, at least in those locations, and would be stuck here in the US, where those jobs are largely outsourced to India.

I have tried to debunk this so many times.... only the shit jobs that no CS major would want or take are outsourced. the jobs that require actual CS related skills are plentiful here and pay extremely well if you are dedicated and they aren't going anywhere. People in india are only good for having them copy/patse some shit java code together for $5/h.

and whats up with the random "comptuer forensics?" comment? seemed to come out of nowhere

Please provide a link to information where computer tech jobs are not being in sourced or outsourced. There are only so many SC "skilled" jobs (high pay) available, and many start and end at the bottom. Its become a puppy mill.

The forensics is a specialty, and one that may provide a higher income. That skilled thing, and something Elvis might have been referencing when he referenced the security industry. Maybe not though. Security includes a ton of low wage jobs monitoring home or business security systems.

since I work in forensics & security I can attest that its the highest paying field and 0 of it is outsourced because for forensics you have to maintain chain of custody, be on-site to image, testifiy in court, etc. security is near the same because you have to go on-site often, have to keep information from the client (source code, network diagram/other info, etc) secure as well. These jobs also take a high amount of skill as you said and code monkey from india isn't going to handle it.

and I don't know where I would get quantified stats for it, but I know how the field works and depending the cost of living for an area, comp sci majors can expect to make 40-60k a year after graduating and topping 6 figures in the first 3-8 years after school is quite common in the private sector and fairly easy in hte government. a freind who does comp security stuff for a navy division is making 70k a year with just 3 years of work exp and grabbing his masters while working there.

 

[elvis]

Yeah, unthinkable. Its not like the government didn't try to outsource port authority to Dubai some years back.

Bush isn't president anymore.

So that could NEVER happen, ever, ever again.

Got it.

They will TRY. but they TRIED before and FAILED. Got it?

 

[blu]

Yeah, unthinkable. Its not like the government didn't try to outsource port authority to Dubai some years back.

Bush isn't president anymore.

So that could NEVER happen, ever, ever again.

Got it.

that was stopped right? and its not quite the same. A real issue though thats currently being addressed by government funding programs and the private sector is what to do about our manufacturing of devices used in critical infrastructure by other countries. China and other such countries build countless hardware peices that we use all through critical systems and government networks and there is currently no technology to audit these systems for implanted security issues at the factory.

 

[Barb]

I have tried to debunk this so many times.... only the shit jobs that no CS major would want or take are outsourced. the jobs that require actual CS related skills are plentiful here and pay extremely well if you are dedicated and they aren't going anywhere. People in india are only good for having them copy/patse some shit java code together for $5/h.

and whats up with the random "comptuer forensics?" comment? seemed to come out of nowhere

Please provide a link to information where computer tech jobs are not being in sourced or outsourced. There are only so many SC "skilled" jobs (high pay) available, and many start and end at the bottom. Its become a puppy mill.

The forensics is a specialty, and one that may provide a higher income. That skilled thing, and something Elvis might have been referencing when he referenced the security industry. Maybe not though. Security includes a ton of low wage jobs monitoring home or business security systems.

since I work in forensics & security I can attest that its the highest paying field and 0 of it is outsourced because for forensics you have to maintain chain of custody, be on-site to image, testifiy in court, etc. security is near the same because you have to go on-site often, have to keep information from the client (source code, network diagram/other info, etc) secure as well. These jobs also take a high amount of skill as you said and code monkey from india isn't going to handle it.

and I don't know where I would get quantified stats for it, but I know how the field works and depending the cost of living for an area, comp sci majors can expect to make 40-60k a year after graduating and topping 6 figures in the first 3-8 years after school is quite common in the private sector and fairly easy in hte government. a freind who does comp security stuff for a navy division is making 70k a year with just 3 years of work exp and grabbing his masters while working there.

Thank you for the information you have, its appreciated.

My problem with your OP is the devaluative nature towards other types of knowledge. It does take all sorts of information to conduct a reasonably beneficial society, and everyone's talents are needed. You do what you do, and I expect reasonably well, but it does not, nor should it be expected to, fill every need.

 

[Barb]

Bush isn't president anymore.

So that could NEVER happen, ever, ever again.

Got it.

that was stopped right? and its not quite the same. A real issue though thats currently being addressed by government funding programs and the private sector is what to do about our manufacturing of devices used in critical infrastructure by other countries. China and other such countries build countless hardware peices that we use all through critical systems and government networks and there is currently no technology to audit these systems for implanted security issues at the factory.

It was stopped. That time. Another try might not be as widely publicized. Lessons learned and all that, the next time something similar is attempted, the public may not learn about it until after the fact.

The manufacturing could be done here, but that would require regulations, and regulations are resisted by industry because they enjoy low wage labor platforms in competitor nations. Ah, policy craft and government. The stuff of those useless liberal arts programs.

 

[Madeline]

Barb wrote:

They aren't nimble though, and I agree that's a problem. Thing is, the business community isn't as communicative as one might expect, and they have a profit motive at heart when signaling or projecting higher vacancies in certain fields. When there's a deficit of talent, they pay more, but where there is a surplus, they pay less - even for highly specialized talent.

True, true, true Barb. And yet.....

The Department of Labor manages to develop some data about the future of different career paths (demand, compensation, etc.) so they are talking to somebody. Small business enclaves (cities, counties, regions) develop and become magnets for others with similar or complimentary businesses. Akron, Durham, Jacksonville, etc. That's not a coincidence....someone is talking to someone. There have to be ways to open effective lines of communication between the schools and the business community.

And here's a voc guidance opportinity that almost never gets used by schools, Have the kids talk to someone who actually does the job they think they want before they commit to a line of study. Preferably lots of someones.

Think you love computer science? Maybe so. But if you are looking to certain market segments for employment (government, insurance, publishing, etc.) are you equally prepared to work in a extremely regimented environment? One in which talking is not allowed unless you are on break? Where you are chained to your desk? Introverts might thrive in these conditions, but extrovererts are likely to feel they cannot face 40 years of this.

Let's say you love computer science, but you also plan to have a family and don't wish to travel much. You might learn that the airline industry, Big Pharma, labor, government and public relations/mass communication are all likely to demand more travel from you than you are comfy with, but retail, wholesale, manufacturing, rail road and oil refrinery are not. (These are all hypothetical....the point is, steer the kids into markets they'll be best able to thrive in.)

I agree, the kid who really, really loves French is a harder case. Thankfully, there are fewer of them than kids who love computer science. And you're spot on, Barb. A voc guidance program for almost any core area of study can be built to reasonably position the kid to become employed. It's hard.

But it's not impossible, and I don't think there's much excuse for not doing it.

This also means closing French departments if the state has a huge glut of them. The school cannot fund obsolete courses of study with planned student failure...I think that's wrong.

 

[Madeline]

No, but acquiring a debt load of $50,000 or $75,000 and spending 6 or 8 years pursuing a career goal that doesn't exist is a recipe for failure. Who do my kids owe it to, to fail? They are probably going to be the most taxed generation to ever live in this nation. Don't they deserve a chance? Or are fat cat professors and administrators just that much more precious to you? Because you cannot have both...and my vote is with the needs of the students coming first. Not only, not ignoring any of the other beneficiaries of the education process, etc.

Just FIRST.

that was a humble law school from the sound of it. grammar deficiencies in grad school?

i've been blessed with private ed for nearly my entire life, including university. i've got to admit, i dont know anything about the conditions in some state colleges. the university of california schools seem great, and their students quite bright, even through my prejudiced lens.

perhaps your frustration is misplaced. what should education really do more in order to secure a job for your kids?

i believe that in another decade, an additional third of the population wont have any jobs. half in the decade to follow. the era of labor intensive industry and services is evaporating by way of exponents. along with that, the era that you can white man yourself a job, degree yourself a job, masters yourself a job, etc... is by-gone.

prep junior accordingly.

yep. I started a thread some time ago about this. almost all jobs except those that require new research will be done by robots within our kids lifetime. even the maintenance and creation of new robots will be done by existing robots once the technology has spread and matures.

there will be a new economoy born and it won't be mass labor based

This is fascinating stuff guys -- can that thread be bumped?

 

[Madeline]

that was a humble law school from the sound of it. grammar deficiencies in grad school?

Regionally prominent at the time. Nationally, mid-range I suppose. It's apparently climbed to regionally predominant since I graduated. Good enough for a kid like me, in any event. If you didn't attend a Top 10 law school, these rankings are a bit amorphous.

You would be amazed/horrified/pissed off if you could see what I see from other lawyers. Contracts, drafts of bills, deeds, pleadings -- you name it -- I have seen glaring grammar errors in them all. (Probably made a few too, but I had a traditional Catholic school education with the Latin and the diagramming of sentences, etc. So I hope not many.)

Some of this is due to pcs and spell/grammar checks. The writer grows far too dependent on that damned machine to signal when he has made an error and can no longer parse out the meaning of his own words.

Lazy people also do not read Strunk and White "On Style" once a year, or spend their leisure time reading well-written books. Their skills, such as they were, atrophy. And believe you me, there are lazy lawyers.

Things really are this bad in terms of ground lost in education K-12 and look to do nothing but get much, much worse. That pushes up to pressure on the colleges and universities, and I'm not sure what should be done to address it.

But it's a factor in the mix that cannot be ignored.

 

[antagon]

No, but acquiring a debt load of $50,000 or $75,000 and spending 6 or 8 years pursuing a career goal that doesn't exist is a recipe for failure. Who do my kids owe it to, to fail? They are probably going to be the most taxed generation to ever live in this nation. Don't they deserve a chance? Or are fat cat professors and administrators just that much more precious to you? Because you cannot have both...and my vote is with the needs of the students coming first. Not only, not ignoring any of the other beneficiaries of the education process, etc.

Just FIRST.

that was a humble law school from the sound of it. grammar deficiencies in grad school?

i've been blessed with private ed for nearly my entire life, including university. i've got to admit, i dont know anything about the conditions in some state colleges. the university of california schools seem great, and their students quite bright, even through my prejudiced lens.

perhaps your frustration is misplaced. what should education really do more in order to secure a job for your kids?

i believe that in another decade, an additional third of the population wont have any jobs. half in the decade to follow. the era of labor intensive industry and services is evaporating by way of exponents. along with that, the era that you can white man yourself a job, degree yourself a job, masters yourself a job, etc... is by-gone.

prep junior accordingly.

yep. I started a thread some time ago about this. almost all jobs except those that require new research will be done by robots within our kids lifetime. even the maintenance and creation of new robots will be done by existing robots once the technology has spread and matures.

there will be a new economoy born and it won't be mass labor based

the slipperiest realities to grip are future-trend demands of this economy. while you say research may be a safe bet, to throw a wrench in that mix, how much research is done now by computers which mathematically model answers to our problems or map our genomes? while i'd agree that compsci is another safe bet, the first robots to repair and build themselves will be software! while india and china enjoy overblown plaudits on the merits of their cheap, efficient labor, these past economies will be arabesqued by this same future/now economy factor. the leap from basic to vbasic was a revolution back in the day. if CS is your field, you and your contemporaries will likely usher in software development without human coding whatsoever. it may put you in a nicer job, but put new CS baccalaureates up shit creek in this 10-20 years. it will leave china and india with the mother of all population problems, where labor-on-demand is their biggest factor today.

think tanks, maddy?

 

[antagon]

that was a humble law school from the sound of it. grammar deficiencies in grad school?

Regionally prominent at the time. Nationally, mid-range I suppose. It's apparently climbed to regionally predominant since I graduated. Good enough for a kid like me, in any event. If you didn't attend a Top 10 law school, these rankings are a bit amorphous.

You would be amazed/horrified/pissed off if you could see what I see from other lawyers. Contracts, drafts of bills, deeds, pleadings -- you name it -- I have seen glaring grammar errors in them all. (Probably made a few too, but I had a traditional Catholic school education with the Latin and the diagramming of sentences, etc. So I hope not many.)

Some of this is due to pcs and spell/grammar checks. The writer grows far too dependent on that damned machine to signal when he has made an error and can no longer parse out the meaning of his own words.

Lazy people also do not read Strunk and White "On Style" once a year, or spend their leisure time reading well-written books. Their skills, such as they were, atrophy. And believe you me, there are lazy lawyers.

Things really are this bad in terms of ground lost in education K-12 and look to do nothing but get much, much worse. That pushes up to pressure on the colleges and universities, and I'm not sure what should be done to address it.

But it's a factor in the mix that cannot be ignored.

law is a great example of an employment and entrepreneurial market which is played on merits beyond the degree and the exam. lionel hutz from the simpsons sums that field up. you can be a john chochran or a hobo.

Lionel Hutz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

is diagramming really just a catholic school thing? like i said, i have no idea what public schools are doing with their time and money.

written and verbal communication are the most valuable bits of my classroom education, by far. they should be stressed above everything else, because they facilitate everything else.

nevermind i refuse to use the shift key on here, and toss my commas arbitrarily.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I had no idea the primary purpose of a public university was to generate profit.

In that case we need to drop all athletic programs as well, except football in a small handful of schools.

Also, lets just not educate students at all, because that just distracts the profit generating professors from their research.

actually research students generate a lot of money for hte school. for each reseach grant they get, the school gets money off the top plus their professor gets extra paycheck, plus there is usually money in it for new equipment, plus the student also gets a stipend

Not all research students. Physics graduate students, for instance, tend to use up much more in grant money then they generate in profits.

Regardless, though, those profits aren't generated with students sitting in classrooms. So lets get rid of the coursework to save money and send them straight to a lab.