who would support dropping liberal arts degrees to help colleges?

[rdean]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

And rocket science.

And brain surgery.

Don't forget electronic engineering.

'

 

[Avatar4321]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

That is so ridiculous.

Today was "Kid's Day" at work. I had the kids from 11 to 11:30. I taped a list of words to the cabinet behind me that included:

Math
Science
Art
English
Creative Writing
Geography
Typing
Public Speaking
Computer Skills

Then I went through each one to show how they applied to engineering.

Art for instance. To take a computer model of the companies product, then light it with the correct colors and fall-off, apply the correct textures and perspective. To use the existing model and find the finished product on company brochures and the company website is something I never would have been able to do if I hadn't taken "stage lighting" and "drawing" as electives in college.

Reports and product description are pure "creative writing".

Since 60% of the company's business is overseas, it's good to know something about the people you will be working with.

I gave a paper with each of these listed, including the reason, to each kid to take home and put on their refrigerator. I told them, "If anyone ever tells you that you will not use what you learned in school ever again, then you look at this list. You will know they are wrong".

And for those on USMB who laugh at education, whether it's art or science, literature or math - you are wrong.

I find that I actually agree with him about the importance for education. Though Im sure I differ on the best way to recieve an education.

I think the degrees aren't necessary. You can learn without them. You can study without them. In fact, I noticed in my education process that we covered many of the same subjects to the point where were we kicking a dead horse. Education in this nation is not taught efficiently or effectively.

However, I also would like to know exactly who is laughing at education.

 

[Madeline]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

And rocket science.

And brain surgery.

Don't forget electronic engineering.

'

Okay, possibly not brain surgery.....LOL.

 

[Avatar4321]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

And rocket science.

And brain surgery.

Don't forget electronic engineering.

'

Why not? Why do you despite self made men and women who educated themselves?

What's the point of paying thousands of dollars for an education when you can learn the same things by simply going to the library and reading books? When you can experiment for yourself? Or when you can apprentice yourself to a master to learn that way much cheaper?

 

[eagleseven]

I disagree. The institution offering to graduate 10,000 teachers and sociology majors annually needs to be CLOSED to prevent students from wasting years, crippling themselves with debt and draining away their labor while the professors et al congratulate themselves on another "successful" year.

The question is who will close these universities?

Public Universities can have their funding cut easily enough, but there are a massive number of private universities in America, and the public has no control over their behavior, save as consumers.

I completely agree, and what's more, I resent this growing idea that no one can hope to achieve a middle class lifestyle without an "advanced" degree...that a mere BS or BA is no longer enough.

Part of the problem here is that we are in the middle of massive social upheaval, in the form of a great recession.

Our expectations, what we consider middle class, have outgrown our economy's ability to satisfy those expectations. As to why our expectations have grown disproportionately, well, you've got the background in sociology!

What bullshit. Who can honestly say that what they learned in their Masters Degree program (mine is in Sociology, can you tell?) was essential or even helpful to earning a living?

My bachelor's in Microbiology enables me to work in a hospital laboratory, but I am the exception that makes the rule (and I planned it that way).

(Sociology? This explains alot!)

Degrees are rarely related directly to what someone does for a living...they've become some weird sort of "finishing school" assuring employers that the applicant can string a grammatical sentence together or run a 10 key calculator.

Tis true...I think economists call it degree inflation.

Somehow, we need to address the employment needs of high school graduates who lack the interest or peculiar intellectual skill needed to acquire a Masters, PhD or other advanced degree. And don't say Vocational Schools...I think what we need are more entreprenurial supports, like the Small Business Administration, as well as apprentice programs and the like. We over-value the sort of intelligence that allows someone to fling fancy bullshit and undervalue the type that allows someone to swing a hammer and build a house. And just look where THAT has gotten us.

I agree, our post-industrial society desperately needs an intermediate between burger-flipping and robot-engineering. I wish I had a satisfying answer, but I don't.

 

[rdean]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

And rocket science.

And brain surgery.

Don't forget electronic engineering.

'

Why not? Why do you despite self made men and women who educated themselves?

What's the point of paying thousands of dollars for an education when you can learn the same things by simply going to the library and reading books? When you can experiment for yourself? Or when you can apprentice yourself to a master to learn that way much cheaper?

Do you really believe that?

 

[Avatar4321]

And rocket science.

And brain surgery.

Don't forget electronic engineering.

'

Why not? Why do you despite self made men and women who educated themselves?

What's the point of paying thousands of dollars for an education when you can learn the same things by simply going to the library and reading books? When you can experiment for yourself? Or when you can apprentice yourself to a master to learn that way much cheaper?

Do you really believe that?

Why shouldn't I? The greatest men in history never had formal education. They taught themselves. Why do you think it's so different now?

 

[blu]

Honestly, I think a person could successfully pass the bar with 1 year of law school. In fact, see no reason why you shouldnt be able to self teach yourself.

And rocket science.

And brain surgery.

Don't forget electronic engineering.

'

Why not? Why do you despite self made men and women who educated themselves?

What's the point of paying thousands of dollars for an education when you can learn the same things by simply going to the library and reading books? When you can experiment for yourself? Or when you can apprentice yourself to a master to learn that way much cheaper?

if do engineering it would be far cheaper to pay tuition than pay for the equipment. you would also have to be a genius to self teach yourself all the math, physics, engineering concepts etc that people leavign with a 4 year degree have.

 

[blu]

OPEN a few more medical schools, and force a high percent of students to study family medicine.

No need to force students into anything. There are already far more pre-meds, than there are spots at medical schools. Create more slots, and we will have more doctors.


Again, no need to force these institutions into any of these actions. The current system exists because of perverse government incentives.

Eliminate government subsidies of higher education, and these problems will solve themselves. If there are too many teachers, word will spread that there are no jobs in teaching, and students paying big $$$ to attend school will not waste time studying to be a teacher.

I disagree. The institution offering to graduate 10,000 teachers and sociology majors annually needs to be CLOSED to prevent students from wasting years, crippling themselves with debt and draining away their labor while the professors et al congratulate themselves on another "successful" year.

Colleges and universities should stop looking on the student body, alumni and donation/grant arenas as a place to raise a field of hay while the rest of us languish. They have a PRIMARY purpose for existing...to educate the young so they can contribute. If the institution cannot achieve this PRIMARY goal, it should be closed.

American Universities provide every resource necessary for students to launch their careers. The fact is, most American 18-year-olds are simply too immature to utilize all that is available, and so fall into useless majors. Nobody is forcing you to take basket-weaving.

I have never met an engineer who thought his college education was a waste of time or money.

Higher education is simply not meant for everyone, despite what our politicians seem to believe.

I completely agree, and what's more, I resent this growing idea that no one can hope to achieve a middle class lifestyle without an "advanced" degree...that a mere BS or BA is no longer enough.

What bullshit. Who can honestly say that what they learned in their Masters Degree program (mine is in Sociology, can you tell?) was essential or even helpful to earning a living? Degrees are rarely related directly to what someone does for a living...they've become some weird sort of "finishing school" assuring employers that the applicant can string a grammatical sentence together or run a 10 key calculator.

Somehow, we need to address the employment needs of high school graduates who lack the interest or peculiar intellectual skill needed to acquire a Masters, PhD or other advanced degree. And don't say Vocational Schools...I think what we need are more entreprenurial supports, like the Small Business Administration, as well as apprentice programs and the like. We over-value the sort of intelligence that allows someone to fling fancy bullshit and undervalue the type that allows someone to swing a hammer and build a house. And just look where THAT has gotten us.

your problem is in bold. you should have got a real degree

 

[blu]

Why not? Why do you despite self made men and women who educated themselves?

What's the point of paying thousands of dollars for an education when you can learn the same things by simply going to the library and reading books? When you can experiment for yourself? Or when you can apprentice yourself to a master to learn that way much cheaper?

Do you really believe that?

Why shouldn't I? The greatest men in history never had formal education. They taught themselves. Why do you think it's so different now?

was this in the last hundred years? I would be interested in reading about it. most of hte modern day scientists I know went to the best universities and did most of their research as professors. I know its a big gap but even in greek times the scientists were tutored and taught before going off on their own.

 

[eagleseven]

Why shouldn't I? The greatest men in history never had formal education. They taught themselves. Why do you think it's so different now?

There is a reason why technological advance was so slow prior to the renaissance (and 18th century): in a given human population, there are very few with the intelligence, determination, and resources to teach themselves to the bleeding edge of a given field. Higher education allows the above-average individual to contribute to fields formerly restricted to self-taught geniuses.

Training more scientists and engineers is not a bad thing!

 

[Avatar4321]

if do engineering it would be far cheaper to pay tuition than pay for the equipment. you would also have to be a genius to self teach yourself all the math, physics, engineering concepts etc that people leavign with a 4 year degree have.

Did i say end colleges? No. I just said we shouldn't restrict knowledge to that or try to pretend that's the only way to learn.

Anyone can teach themselves. In fact, if you were in college doing it right, you were teaching yourself most of the time with the homework and studying.

Learn the basics and then get out in the real world and learn on the job or on your own. Learn how to learn and then use that to go where you need to go.

 

[Avatar4321]

Why shouldn't I? The greatest men in history never had formal education. They taught themselves. Why do you think it's so different now?

There is a reason why technological advance was so slow prior to the renaissance (and 18th century): in a given human population, there are very few with the intelligence, determination, and resources to teach themselves to the bleeding edge of a given field. Higher education allows the above-average individual to contribute to fields formerly restricted to self-taught geniuses.

Training more scientists and engineers is not a bad thing!

I dont think only geniuses can be self taught. Nor have I said anything about doing away with training.

I am saying we can learn in more ways than just in a classroom or by paying tuition.

 

[Madeline]

Poor sociology majors...everyone hates on us. The degree is not valued in the job market (I know only one person in some forty years who makes a living as a sociologist, unless you count all the sociology professors). Because the degree did not yield big earning power we have a tendency to see the whole body of work/science as worthless.

Sociology is not worthless. It is no less valuable to be able to analyze and/or predict large and small group interaction that it is to write a poem, unearth a dinosaur or run a hedge fund. I'd argue that knowledge and skill are inherently valuable.

But I was an especially silly college student and never realized that, one day, I'd graduate and have to earn a living. Why would I? Everyone I knew was studying sociology or political science.

I graduated in an era when VA benefits still paid most of a kid's cost of education, grants were freely available and student loans were dischargable in bankruptcy. None of these things is true for today's students.

Don't colleges and universities owe them some vocational guidance?

 

[rdean]

Why not? Why do you despite self made men and women who educated themselves?

What's the point of paying thousands of dollars for an education when you can learn the same things by simply going to the library and reading books? When you can experiment for yourself? Or when you can apprentice yourself to a master to learn that way much cheaper?

Do you really believe that?

Why shouldn't I? The greatest men in history never had formal education. They taught themselves. Why do you think it's so different now?

This isn't 1780 or even 1980. It's a whole different world out there.

I like to use evolution as an example. Many on the right are stuck with, "But it's JUST a theory". Then you go look at what the top universities are teaching. There are dozens and dozens of entire new "fields" of study based on the science of evolution. From those new fields of study come remarkable benefits. Concrete, substantive benefits all based on "But it's JUST a theory".

Then you look at what is going on in science. I was reading about new "molecular" computers. Transistors using carbon atoms and molecules as a collector, base and emitter. It's astounding. You can't learn that in a garage.

You may learn enough to be a lab technician (though I doubt it), but if you are going to go through all that work to "teach yourself", why not "learn" from experts and become an expert much quicker? They will cover things you would miss. And it's infinitely easier.

If you believe you can figure out "Differential Linear Equations" all by yourself and apply them to a real world scenario, you are a much better and smarter person than me. In fact, you will be a celebrity.

 

[Avatar4321]

Do you really believe that?

Why shouldn't I? The greatest men in history never had formal education. They taught themselves. Why do you think it's so different now?

This isn't 1780 or even 1980. It's a whole different world out there.

I like to use evolution as an example. Many on the right are stuck with, "But it's JUST a theory". Then you go look at what the top universities are teaching. There are dozens and dozens of entire new "fields" of study based on the science of evolution. From those new fields of study come remarkable benefits. Concrete, substantive benefits all based on "But it's JUST a theory".

Then you look at what is going on in science. I was reading about new "molecular" computers. Transistors using carbon atoms and molecules as a collector, base and emitter. It's astounding. You can't learn that in a garage.

You may learn enough to be a lab technician (though I doubt it), but if you are going to go through all that work to "teach yourself", why not "learn" from experts and become an expert much quicker? They will cover things you would miss. And it's infinitely easier.

If you believe you can figure out "Differential Linear Equations" all by yourself and apply them to a real world scenario, you are a much better and smarter person than me. In fact, you will be a celebrity.

The world is actually quite the same. People haven't changed. Truth hasn't changed. We just have more conveniences and technology to deal with. I never said don't learn from experts. I just don't agree that all experts are in a university setting.

And if, according to you, we have changed so much, why are we still using an educational system designed so long ago? Why not think outside the box on how to get an education?

Molecular computers? Interesting. Ill have to look into that. It certainly sounds exciting. Honestly, I am not that suprised though. But as I've never said do away with schools and labratories altogether, I think you are missing my point. And also, I dont think you can conclusively say it can't be done on one's own. You never know what someone will innovate tomorrow that we never thought of today.

 

[Diuretic]

Exactemundo ... plus, who really needs to know why politicians decide they way they do (PolSci) or why have certain armed conflicts gone for as long as they have (History/Int'l Affairs) or how to solve such conflicts (Int'l Affairs/Conflict Resolution). Such things are just so dang useless! We can see it in the world we live in today after all!

After over 100 years of the world's universities turning out PoliSci, History, and International Affairs majors...

...have our politicians improved?

...have we stopped repeating history?

...have we stopped having conflicts?


Contrast this with how science and mathematics majors have changed our world.

A study of history will show that:

- politicians have improved
- history is seen not to repeat but to be driven by various forces which are always present but which change in form
- conflicts have reduced

Granted, there probably isn't a causal relationship between the study of history and these tendencies but history can at least explain them.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

I disagree with the notion that a liberal arts degree is an irrelevant waste of time. At the very least one who attains such a degree should be articulate, intelligent, capable of critical thought and a generally functional human being capable of doing almost any job.

However with my B.S. in Economics and Political Science I have yet to land a job with any real substance. Working as a bank teller and a customer service rep for a large retail store are not my ideal jobs but they help me get by for now.

 

[Diuretic]

Chuck out liberal arts? What, like history? Employers need people with high level critical thinking and other cognitive skills, heck the biggest mining company in the world was hiring history graduates a few years ago and using their analytical skills to help their business.

what a stupid decision, hire history majors instead of math/sci/engineering majors whose whole degree exists on analytical processing of how everythign in the universe works.

and you say history majros have better critical thinking skills than those doing engineering and math

The now biggest mining company in the world wasn't the biggest mining company in the world when it was hiring those history graduates.

I said that history majors have better critical thinking skills than engineering or maths students? I did? Heck what was I drinking???? I need to know where I said that, I should go back and edit it. Give me a break, help me out here

 

[Cecilie1200]

Chuck out liberal arts? What, like history? Employers need people with high level critical thinking and other cognitive skills, heck the biggest mining company in the world was hiring history graduates a few years ago and using their analytical skills to help their business.

I have been told that liberal arts degrees are increasing in their popularity with employers lately. Certainly my husband's joint degrees in journalism and creative writing have been helpful with a wide variety of jobs over the years.