CDZ Where do we stand on healthcare?

[BULLDOG]

There is no excuse for anyone in the richest country history has ever known to go without basic health care. Reading that an elderly man shot his wife because they could no longer afford her medicine shows that an intolerable situation exists. There is no reason to spend a trillion dollars to develop an airplane ostensibly for defense when society is indefensibly inhuman.

There is no excuse to support tyranny.

You have a really dumb definition of tyranny.

and yet, that is exactly what every tyrant in history has said. They justify their own dictator powers over the public, by suggest we've always forced people to do stuff... so why not force them to do everything we want.

It's for the good of public to force people to have insurance... isn't it? We force them to have car insurance, why not health, and let's just force everyone to do everything we want? It's for their good! Hitler said..... Stalin said... Pol Pot said.... Mao said....

How "intolerable" the situation is, is always used by every tyrant to commit every brutality on the public.... but they never say "I'm going to brutally oppress the people". You've never seen a tyrant say that. Not openly. They always phrase their brutality and dictatorial powers..... as being for the good of the people....

Even Jesus in the Bible called it out.... "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors."

The kings always lord over them.... but call themselves "We your benefactors! We are stealing your money, taking your property, and controlling your lives....... well.... to give you health care! Yeah... it's just intolerable otherwise."

I can see why the left hates the Bible, and Jesus. He called you people out perfectly.... over 2000 years ago.

Don't be stupid. Our representatives are elected. When elections are banned, you might have a point, but not now. Trying to tie everything to your religious beliefs doesn't always work if you only pick and choose which parts you want to follow. The bible says
Hebrews 13:7
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
That doesn't exactly fit us because we don't have rulers. We have duly elected representatives.

 

[initforme]

OnOnly the wealthy should have healthcare. The rest of us should wither away.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no excuse for anyone in the richest country history has ever known to go without basic health care. Reading that an elderly man shot his wife because they could no longer afford her medicine shows that an intolerable situation exists. There is no reason to spend a trillion dollars to develop an airplane ostensibly for defense when society is indefensibly inhuman.

There is no excuse to support tyranny.

You have a really dumb definition of tyranny.

and yet, that is exactly what every tyrant in history has said. They justify their own dictator powers over the public, by suggest we've always forced people to do stuff... so why not force them to do everything we want.

It's for the good of public to force people to have insurance... isn't it? We force them to have car insurance, why not health, and let's just force everyone to do everything we want? It's for their good! Hitler said..... Stalin said... Pol Pot said.... Mao said....

How "intolerable" the situation is, is always used by every tyrant to commit every brutality on the public.... but they never say "I'm going to brutally oppress the people". You've never seen a tyrant say that. Not openly. They always phrase their brutality and dictatorial powers..... as being for the good of the people....

Even Jesus in the Bible called it out.... "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors."

The kings always lord over them.... but call themselves "We your benefactors! We are stealing your money, taking your property, and controlling your lives....... well.... to give you health care! Yeah... it's just intolerable otherwise."

I can see why the left hates the Bible, and Jesus. He called you people out perfectly.... over 2000 years ago.

Don't be stupid. Our representatives are elected. When elections are banned, you might have a point, but not now. Trying to tie everything to your religious beliefs doesn't always work if you only pick and choose which parts you want to follow. The bible says
Hebrews 13:7
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
That doesn't exactly fit us because we don't have rulers. We have duly elected representatives.

As if. Just because they are elected, doesn't mean they are not a dictator and tyrant. Hugo Chavez was elected to. Didn't change the fact he screwed over his entire country.

Every dictator has a large section of the country that supports them. Muammar al-Gaddafi did. So does Assad.

Your tyranny of the majority is a joke. First, does the fact the vast majority of Americans supported slavery at one point, mean that it wasn't tyranny? Second, you do realize that Obama only got 65 million votes... in a nation of 310 Million people..... The idea that any politician represents the majority, is a joke. They never do.

Yes, and I do obey the elected officials. You do realize that Hebrews 13:7 was written during at time when the Christians who follow that passage, were being slaughtered?

Hebrews 13:7, doesn't contradict Luke 22:25 which I cited before. So I don't really know what your point is. Did you even have a point to make with that passage?

 

[Andylusion]

OnOnly the wealthy should have healthcare. The rest of us should wither away.

In 2006, I had health care. I made $20,000 a year.

I didn't wither away. So you do just like making up crap? Is that the only way you can justify your ideological stupidity?

 

[Two Thumbs]

There is no excuse for anyone in the richest country history has ever known to go without basic health care. Reading that an elderly man shot his wife because they could no longer afford her medicine shows that an intolerable situation exists. There is no reason to spend a trillion dollars to develop an airplane ostensibly for defense when society is indefensibly inhuman.

There is no excuse to support tyranny.

You have a really dumb definition of tyranny.

and yet, that is exactly what every tyrant in history has said. They justify their own dictator powers over the public, by suggest we've always forced people to do stuff... so why not force them to do everything we want.

It's for the good of public to force people to have insurance... isn't it? We force them to have car insurance, why not health, and let's just force everyone to do everything we want? It's for their good! Hitler said..... Stalin said... Pol Pot said.... Mao said....

How "intolerable" the situation is, is always used by every tyrant to commit every brutality on the public.... but they never say "I'm going to brutally oppress the people". You've never seen a tyrant say that. Not openly. They always phrase their brutality and dictatorial powers..... as being for the good of the people....

Even Jesus in the Bible called it out.... "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors."

The kings always lord over them.... but call themselves "We your benefactors! We are stealing your money, taking your property, and controlling your lives....... well.... to give you health care! Yeah... it's just intolerable otherwise."

I can see why the left hates the Bible, and Jesus. He called you people out perfectly.... over 2000 years ago.

Don't be stupid. Our representatives are elected. When elections are banned, you might have a point, but not now. Trying to tie everything to your religious beliefs doesn't always work if you only pick and choose which parts you want to follow. The bible says
Hebrews 13:7
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
That doesn't exactly fit us because we don't have rulers. We have duly elected representatives.

so b/c we have elections, the tyranny of being forced to buy products isn't really tyranny.


"Don't be stupid."

how ironic

 

[Two Thumbs]

OnOnly the wealthy should have healthcare. The rest of us should wither away.

since when can only the wealthy get healthcare you lying fucking moron?

 

[Andylusion]

OnOnly the wealthy should have healthcare. The rest of us should wither away.

since when can only the wealthy get healthcare you lying fucking moron?

Since they realized they didn't have any fact based reason to push their agenda. Thus you have to invent lies to support your agenda.

 

[320 Years of History]

The bible says "Hebrews"...

...And yet that doesn't stop women in environments driven by Christian principles from making coffee...

LOL

 

[Toronado3800]

To be clear, generally I am in favor of simple mandatory healthcoverage by the same regulations and standards country wide.

"Obamacare" seems complicated and while I very much believe it is necessary it is probably unconstitutional.

I have little understanding of those who socialist though. We should all remember 2005, 1995, 1985, 1975, 1965 and back to the 50's where most hospitals have treated everyone who walked in the door my whole life.

So IMO we had a socialist system since the 50's where the homeless and the poor might not have access to the same service as the President but they do get treated and decently. My whole life the poor side of my family got their tried and true decade old Chemo treatment at cruddy hospitals and the rich side traveled to whatever city to grasp the latest straw for treatment.

There, am I middle of the road or did I just offended everyone equally lol. I called Obamacare unconstitutional, said Ronald Reagan ran a Socialist healthcare system, and said I think nationwide compulsory insurance should be mandatory.

So if I live in Alabama making $10,000 a year, and you mandate that I must pay $250 a month in insurance premiums, what you are saying is, I am required to be homeless, and starving?

I might be in perfect health..... but I need to pay my rent, and pay for food.

Why are you dooming me to poverty and homelessness, for the sake of a requirement to buy health insurance?

See this right here, is why I'm against government dictating our lives. You don't know where someone else is fiscally. If they can afford it, let them afford it. IF they can't... who are you to demand they live their lives, the way you want?

Kinda sucks. The current system gives a discount on health insurance to the poor.

The other choices are:

No one pays your health insurance and you don't get treated at the ER at the expense of others.

No one pays your health insurance amd if you go to the ER then you get treated at the expense of others (the old system)

We just admit the old system gave you coverage on the backs of others and charge you SOMETHING for insurance.

Its a big social problem.

 

[Andylusion]

To be clear, generally I am in favor of simple mandatory healthcoverage by the same regulations and standards country wide.

"Obamacare" seems complicated and while I very much believe it is necessary it is probably unconstitutional.

I have little understanding of those who socialist though. We should all remember 2005, 1995, 1985, 1975, 1965 and back to the 50's where most hospitals have treated everyone who walked in the door my whole life.

So IMO we had a socialist system since the 50's where the homeless and the poor might not have access to the same service as the President but they do get treated and decently. My whole life the poor side of my family got their tried and true decade old Chemo treatment at cruddy hospitals and the rich side traveled to whatever city to grasp the latest straw for treatment.

There, am I middle of the road or did I just offended everyone equally lol. I called Obamacare unconstitutional, said Ronald Reagan ran a Socialist healthcare system, and said I think nationwide compulsory insurance should be mandatory.

So if I live in Alabama making $10,000 a year, and you mandate that I must pay $250 a month in insurance premiums, what you are saying is, I am required to be homeless, and starving?

I might be in perfect health..... but I need to pay my rent, and pay for food.

Why are you dooming me to poverty and homelessness, for the sake of a requirement to buy health insurance?

See this right here, is why I'm against government dictating our lives. You don't know where someone else is fiscally. If they can afford it, let them afford it. IF they can't... who are you to demand they live their lives, the way you want?

Kinda sucks. The current system gives a discount on health insurance to the poor.

The other choices are:

No one pays your health insurance and you don't get treated at the ER at the expense of others.

No one pays your health insurance amd if you go to the ER then you get treated at the expense of others (the old system)

We just admit the old system gave you coverage on the backs of others and charge you SOMETHING for insurance.

Its a big social problem.

That's not entirely true though. You can go to the ER, get treated, and if you don't have insurance, you get a bill. You pay what you can, and eventually pay it down.

I actually did this at one point. I got a bill of several thousand, and paid whatever I could each month. It was a good 2 or 3 years of paying on it, before I paid it off. But eventually I paid it off.

In addition, there are numerous charities that can help people with health care needs. I actually fund a few myself.

And lastly, sometimes the Hospital will, believe it or not, just forgive the debt... or reduce the debt.

And by the way, there is another crazy concept.... people for stuff.

You know if I want a new computer.... I can actually get a second job, and earn a few thousand more, to pay for the computer.

If I know I have a huge medical expense, how about I cut the cable, and the broadband internet, and cut going out to eat. Maybe sell that expensive car, and buy a used beater. Maybe work another job.

You say, well if your sick..... Family? You think my parents wouldn't help out if I was in trouble? Church even? My church years ago, we had a lady who was by herself, and she got sick, and they had special collection to help her.

But here's the kicker.... as long as we have an entitlement mentality about health care... as long as we believe we are magically owed free service.... then why should anyone ever sacrifice anything to get health care? Why should I cut by my life style to get something I am entitled to?

I actually had this exact conversation with my brother-in-law. He is an amazing individual. Fought in Iraq. Saved a buddy who had his hands blown off by an IED.

He was complaining about going to the VA, and getting the absolute worst, most lousy service possible. And me and him, both agreed his solution was simply to save up money and pay for the health care he needed, and just ignore the crappy awful VA system. His complaint was "Yeah, but it makes me mad, because I am supposed to get free health care". Now he got over it, and went to a high quality clinic, and they have done a great job.

But that right there, is the problem.

 

[320 Years of History]

That's not entirely true though. You can go to the ER, get treated, and if you don't have insurance, you get a bill. You pay what you can, and eventually pay it down.

I actually did this at one point. I got a bill of several thousand, and paid whatever I could each month. It was a good 2 or 3 years of paying on it, before I paid it off. But eventually I paid it off.

In addition, there are numerous charities that can help people with health care needs. I actually fund a few myself.

Wow. From too poor to have insurance or pay outright a "several thousand" dollar medical bill in fewer than three years to being a philanthropist who "funds numerous" charities. That's quite a change in financial position. How did you achieve that? Truly, you should write a book sharing your methods and lessons learned with the folks who today find themselves in the state you once found yourself.

 

[Andylusion]

That's not entirely true though. You can go to the ER, get treated, and if you don't have insurance, you get a bill. You pay what you can, and eventually pay it down.

I actually did this at one point. I got a bill of several thousand, and paid whatever I could each month. It was a good 2 or 3 years of paying on it, before I paid it off. But eventually I paid it off.

In addition, there are numerous charities that can help people with health care needs. I actually fund a few myself.

Wow. From too poor to have insurance or pay outright a "several thousand" dollar medical bill in fewer than three years to being a philanthropist who "funds numerous" charities. That's quite a change in financial position. How did you achieve that? Truly, you should write a book sharing your methods and lessons learned with the folks who today find themselves in the state you once found yourself.

Yeah it is. In the early 2000s, I found myself absolutely broke. Numerous poor choices, and bad fiscal decisions, left me with roughly $12,000 in debt while earning barely $20,000 a year.

However, I'm a right-winger, not a left-winger, so I didn't complain or starting trying to blame the rich.

Instead, I simply got a second job for a time, and started paying down my debts. However, as a low-wage laborer, it still required about oh.... I think 2006 was last year I paid on that particular debt. But Murphy moved in, and I had this medical thing, which required several years to pay off, because I didn't have health insurance. So I just paid what I could on the bill each month until I paid it off. I can't remember exactly how long it required, because it blended in with the other debts I was paying off at the time.

Today, I have zero debt. No credit cards. No car loans. No rent-to-own. No nothing. I owe no one, anywhere, anything. Not even a credit card that I pay off at the end of the month. No cards.

Funding charities isn't millions of dollars. But I put at least 10% of my income towards my church which in turn funds various charitable activities, and an additional amount which varies on my ability to give, towards certain charities, typically battered women's shelters.

As for my investments... it's nothing super special. At this point only 50% of the money in my investments, is money I put in. The rest is growth. Which is the whole point of an investment... it grows.

As for the thousands on thousands I put it... that too isn't all that special. I've been working since the 1990s. I put 5% into 401K every chance I get. Some of my jobs had a 401K match. Regardless, I made the choice that when my life crashed, and I had debt coming out my ears, I was going to leave my investments alone. I wasn't going to sacrifice my stocks and bonds, to pay off my debt.

So even during the years I had debt, I still had those investments, and they continued to grow during that time.

Now that I paid off all the debt, I have tons of money invested, and no debt.

See the typical American way is that you borrow up to your eye balls, and then pull all your money out of your investments to pay your debts, and then you are broke again. I didn't do that. I left my investments alone, and just cut back the life style to nothing, and paid off my debts that way.

More importantly I'll never borrow anything ever again. That's why I don't even have a credit card. People complain they give all their money to the banks..... not me. Nope.

 

[BIG YANK BAL 1976]

OnOnly the wealthy should have healthcare. The rest of us should wither away.

Not true, a lot of low income folks in states that participated in expanding medicaid, get better insurance thru the Government than folks working at jobs that pay 40 - 50 Grand a year..

In all actuality anyone making less than 20 bucks an hour, is someone who is closer to poverty, depending where you live, than to wealth by a long shot..

 

[BIG YANK BAL 1976]

No American should be forced to buy a product, or else.

That's blatant tyranny and no excuse is sufficient to support it.

Americans are forced to buy products all the time. From the list of needed supplies that a grade schooler is given in the fall, to a coffin to bury someone when he dies, we all have an obligation to buy lots of products. It's part of being in a civilized society..

I don't think it's right for the Government to fine and punish some poor scrub who can't offord to buy insurance, while he's stuck in a dead end 12 buck an hour job, let's see pay rent or insurance well pretty easy call..

That's like punishing people for being poor, end result let's keep picking on poor folks and that will solve all our problems huh

 

[320 Years of History]

Funding charities isn't millions of dollars. But I put at least 10% of my income towards my church which in turn funds various charitable activities

Okay....Well, that's a very different scale than what your remark led me to think. I was of the mind you were the primary "high dollar" funder of several foundations or other charitable organizations. TY for the clarification.

Your accomplishments and story of personal recovery is none the less laudable. Kudos.

Writing a book about it may yet be a wise thing to do. I'm sure others can nonetheless take inspiration, perhaps even specific actionable insights from learning of your experiences, trials and tribulations. I think too few folks who have "normal" stories of achievement bother to share them widely. Most often, what we hear about, in the news or in books, are stories of folks who've gone from one great extreme to another, stories about the exceptional achievers among us. What is likely more useful, more inspiring and informative, to many more people are sagas of regular people going from something imaginable that's clearly undesirable to something else that is equally imaginable but notably better.

 

[Andylusion]

Funding charities isn't millions of dollars. But I put at least 10% of my income towards my church which in turn funds various charitable activities

Okay....Well, that's a very different scale than what your remark led me to think. I was of the mind you were the primary "high dollar" funder of several foundations or other charitable organizations. TY for the clarification.

Your accomplishments and story of personal recovery is none the less laudable. Kudos.

Writing a book about it may yet be a wise thing to do. I'm sure others can nonetheless take inspiration, perhaps even specific actionable insights from learning of your experiences, trials and tribulations. I think too few folks who have "normal" stories of achievement bother to share them widely. Most often, what we hear about, in the news or in books, are stories of folks who've gone from one great extreme to another, stories about the exceptional achievers among us. What is likely more useful, more inspiring and informative, to many more people are sagas of regular people going from something imaginable that's clearly undesirable to something else that is equally imaginable but notably better.

The remarkable life and lessons of the $8 million janitor

Janitor who retired with $8 Million.

Yeah, it's true that the "big" stories are the extremes. But it's not uncommon.

Actually my parents are millionaires. Want to know how they made millions? Public school teachers.

Where do you think I got my method of living from? Modeled from the best. Living frugal man. It's where most millionaires come from.

 

[320 Years of History]

Funding charities isn't millions of dollars. But I put at least 10% of my income towards my church which in turn funds various charitable activities

Okay....Well, that's a very different scale than what your remark led me to think. I was of the mind you were the primary "high dollar" funder of several foundations or other charitable organizations. TY for the clarification.

Your accomplishments and story of personal recovery is none the less laudable. Kudos.

Writing a book about it may yet be a wise thing to do. I'm sure others can nonetheless take inspiration, perhaps even specific actionable insights from learning of your experiences, trials and tribulations. I think too few folks who have "normal" stories of achievement bother to share them widely. Most often, what we hear about, in the news or in books, are stories of folks who've gone from one great extreme to another, stories about the exceptional achievers among us. What is likely more useful, more inspiring and informative, to many more people are sagas of regular people going from something imaginable that's clearly undesirable to something else that is equally imaginable but notably better.

The remarkable life and lessons of the $8 million janitor

Janitor who retired with $8 Million.

Yeah, it's true that the "big" stories are the extremes. But it's not uncommon.

Actually my parents are millionaires. Want to know how they made millions? Public school teachers.

Where do you think I got my method of living from? Modeled from the best. Living frugal man. It's where most millionaires come from.

Well, there again, I think we have differing views of scale on matters such as this. I see achieving a million dollar to $10 million dollar net worth as being relatively "normal," even though not everyone does so. By calling that "normal," I mean that doing so is well within the realm of what hardworking frugal folks with reasonably good, but not exceptional, jobs and investment behaviors can and often will achieve financially.

Perhaps my view of that is skewed somewhat by my, in the U.S., living and finding myself mostly in high cost locales like D.C., NYC, and L.A. where the value of one's home alone is very often enough to put one at least halfway to reaching one million dollars in net worth. Add to that a lifetime of sage saving/investing and achieving million dollar net worth is all but assured.

I'm not trying to diminish the accomplishment, or the folks who achieve it. I'm merely saying that it's a "normal" one, and that's the sort of story that's more useful than is that of, say, folks with barely a dollar to their name and go on to become hundred millionaires or billionaires.

 

[Andylusion]

Funding charities isn't millions of dollars. But I put at least 10% of my income towards my church which in turn funds various charitable activities

Okay....Well, that's a very different scale than what your remark led me to think. I was of the mind you were the primary "high dollar" funder of several foundations or other charitable organizations. TY for the clarification.

Your accomplishments and story of personal recovery is none the less laudable. Kudos.

Writing a book about it may yet be a wise thing to do. I'm sure others can nonetheless take inspiration, perhaps even specific actionable insights from learning of your experiences, trials and tribulations. I think too few folks who have "normal" stories of achievement bother to share them widely. Most often, what we hear about, in the news or in books, are stories of folks who've gone from one great extreme to another, stories about the exceptional achievers among us. What is likely more useful, more inspiring and informative, to many more people are sagas of regular people going from something imaginable that's clearly undesirable to something else that is equally imaginable but notably better.

The remarkable life and lessons of the $8 million janitor

Janitor who retired with $8 Million.

Yeah, it's true that the "big" stories are the extremes. But it's not uncommon.

Actually my parents are millionaires. Want to know how they made millions? Public school teachers.

Where do you think I got my method of living from? Modeled from the best. Living frugal man. It's where most millionaires come from.

Well, there again, I think we have differing views of scale on matters such as this. I see achieving a million dollar to $10 million dollar net worth as being relatively "normal," even though not everyone does so. By calling that "normal," I mean that doing so is well within the realm of what hardworking frugal folks with reasonably good, but not exceptional, jobs and investment behaviors can and often will achieve financially.

Perhaps my view of that is skewed somewhat by my, in the U.S., living and finding myself mostly in high cost locales like D.C., NYC, and L.A. where the value of one's home alone is very often enough to put one at least halfway to reaching one million dollars in net worth. Add to that a lifetime of sage saving/investing and achieving million dollar net worth is all but assured.

I'm not trying to diminish the accomplishment, or the folks who achieve it. I'm merely saying that it's a "normal" one, and that's the sort of story that's more useful than is that of, say, folks with barely a dollar to their name and go on to become hundred millionaires or billionaires.

Yeah, maybe that is a bit skewed. You live in LA, DC, and NYC, and you think that's how everyone is. That's how almost no one is.

The Average Retirement Savings by Age for 2016 | Investopedia

According to the GAO, the average American, at age 55 to 65, has saved up $104,000.

That's the average.

1 in 3 Americans Has Saved $0 for Retirement

ONE in THREE Americans has saved a total of ZERO at retirement.

This is the real "normal".

What you describe should be normal, but it's not. Not even close to normal. Most people my age, have a negative net worth. They owe more in debts, than they own in assets.

 

[320 Years of History]

You live in LA, DC, and NYC, and you think that's how everyone is.

I don't at all think that "everyone's" financial circumstances and environments are very similar to those of L.A., D.C. and NYC residents. I'm not nearly that narrow minded, but TY for giving me no more credit than being so. <winks>

 

[Andylusion]

You live in LA, DC, and NYC, and you think that's how everyone is.

I don't at all think that "everyone's" financial circumstances and environments are very similar to those of L.A., D.C. and NYC residents. I'm not nearly that narrow minded, but TY for giving me no more credit than being so. <winks>

You are absolutely right. I did say "you". In my mind I was thinking of people I know who have that mentality. It's like the average American being sent on a month long mission trip to Ecuador, and freaking out when they discover there's no wifi, and data cell phone coverage.

And by the way, I had that experience myself, when I woke up and realized my suburban life wasn't.... just how everyone was.

But that was unfair to slap that label on you. You are right, I am wrong.