When is too young? How to decide?

[Diuretic]

I still like to think that but then again I get these visions of our kids pushing us into gas chambers later in life I have a step teenager that thinks it is everyones elses fault on most everything that happens to them. This attitude has been around since they were 5 yeears old. Her father is a freaking lazy ass pig and thus it is everyones fault he can't hold a job, or any host of earth stopping issues. So through this childs brief life I have been about responsibility and frankly having responsibility sucks at any age! But I've tried to stress at times that being accountable is easer than being in the joint. So as I'm wheeled into the gas chamber hopefully I'll be calm, silent and looking on if that day ever happens.

Time for us baby-boomers to get tooled up (armed). The Gens X,Y,Z etc. are going to use us for Soylent Green. Well fuck that. I'm gonna get my Zimmer frame tricked up with one of these babies:

 

[Avatar4321]

1. Do you think it is right to teach a young child a single religion when they know no alternative?

2. What do you think would happen if children were taught in depth about all religions and left to decide for themselves when they mature?

3. How many non religious children grow up and convert to a religion of their choosing?

4. Is it necessary to teach young children because they will not believe when they are grown?

If you teach them the truth you dont have to worry about the alternatives.

Children lack the wisdom of experience to understand the nonsense from the facts which is exactly why they should be taught the truth.

Id say fairly significant amounts.

its much easier to straighten a young tree while its flexible then move an older toughened trunk.

 

[Avatar4321]

you think without religion there would be no basis for morality?

humans could not distinguish right from wrong without religion?

Without God there is no right and wrong. Everything is relative.

 

[Superlative]

Think, "Lord Of The Flies".....

Bunch of choir boys stranded on an island. No adult authority, just the boys own decisions. How does the book end...........utter anarchy.

Ok, it was non-fiction, but it certainly isn't an unreasonable possibility. Just raise some of your own from babies to adulthood..........From helplessness to accountability..............Before accountability, they need discipline to learn to be sensitive to others, to share, to just plain obey and do what's good for them and others around them. Then gradually there's a dawning.......At least hopefully they aren't born with a seared conscience, and the start to apply the principles that you've taught them.

Now as far as teaching them a wide spectrum of belief systems or religions or philosophys.........I would think that parents would naturally desire, to teach the ethics and morals that they themselves adhere too, and most likely the base or foundational belief system that spawned those ethics or morals. When a child reaches the ages of accountability, they will have the opportunity to go into the world and also test out other religious beliefs/philosophys against their childhood training and decide for themselves.

Many folks end up joining other religions or refraining from the religions of their parents. This is the maturing part of becoming a full fledged human being. Many will reject Mom and Pop's belief system, and will years later return to it.

It's a natural and healthy part of maturing humanity in it's early adult stage to "test" the waters so-to-speak, and see whats out there.

Our kids can't be guarded in guilded cages. I know it's scarey as parents, but if we want them to maturate and return to us as full fledged adults with full fledged powers of analysis and reason, we must let go.

In their early ages, we apply our religious beliefs as that's how we as parents perceive our reality the world and truth. It doesn't sentence our children to a life of never having a choice. We hope to foundationally give them a kick-start, and then pray for them and hopefully are availbable to give counsel at times if asked. Even then, when they are at that accountability time of life, we must be careful to not harrangue them with our belief system, unless they ask us specifically about how it in light of needed counsel. Never the less, respect their adulthood, and they will in-turn respect you more and the foundational principles that you passed on to them in childhood.

Maybe some of us are on the right track and some of parents aren't. There will be a time when we will all be accountable for what we passed onto our offspring. I guarantee it.

In rational moderation this is all true.

It is not rational and moderate religious adults that are a problem.

Your Lord of the Flies example, im kind of confused, does this show that if you teach children religion and leave them alone they will end up killing and becoming savages?

They are still children, and I think that religious or not, you cant abandon them and hope that whatever theyve learned, they will choose the right course, Lord of the Flies was a fictional circumstance, in all actuality the kids would most likely have starved to death.

You cant leave them alone with God, because one of them will test it, at least one child will see if they are truly being watched, and the only real repercussion that they would ever be faced with is guilt.

And guilt works wonders for religion, especially when people are reminded and repeatedly being told they are guilty, but if you leave someone alone, guilt subsides, unless they are unablanced enough to wallow continiously in their guilt. Which is unhealthy in its own right.

Speaking of not so moderate and rational believers, there are many individuals who have chosen a different path, and found alternative religions, or alternatiives to religion,
only to find that they have been disowned, abandoned by everyone they love, leaving them with a feeling of utter hopelessness.
Not too many choose to stray from a deep belief system.

We will always have a choice, but when a human is raised without a choice from the start, the alternatives never look as reasonable or inviting.

 

[Superlative]

I won't agree on that logic, I'm a conservative, but it that the issue here really?? I might not answer back because I feel as if I'm not making my point clear enough. But the bottom line is I believe what I believe and I highly doubt I can change your views or even get you to consider my points if you've set out to be against my points or if we are against these points collectively.
So when I lay my head down at night I chose to answer my day from my view and actions not yours.

And these subjects are tended to be asked or discussed by interpretation by the presenter.

I do believe you are a different level of conservative than RSR.

Again the problem lies in Extremists, not moderately rational individuals such as yourself.

 

[Superlative]

Without God there is no right and wrong. Everything is relative.

So, what you are saying is that if there was NO God, we would all have killed each other long ago?

Is God the only thing holding you back from rape and murder?

What about non believers? what is keeping them in line?

 

[hjmick]

What about non believers? what is keeping them in line?

Fear of being wrong. LOL

 

[90K]

I do believe you are a different level of conservative than RSR.

Again the problem lies in Extremists, not moderately rational individuals such as yourself.

Ok so I will ask what is your angle? See if you ask this and want to string the folk along, well were does that leave you inthe end? I'm hoping it isn't something I'm to ponder about. I would hope you could have added a view point on the reasons you asked this? I mean if for example you took a poll then this subject would change dramically.
But asking a question you've gotten opinions but if I recall correctly you've left out your reason for the question.
So are you a moderate or extremist or somewhere in between?

 

[Superlative]

Ok so I will ask what is your angle? See if you ask this and want to string the folk along, well were does that leave you inthe end? I'm hoping it isn't something I'm to ponder about. I would hope you could have added a view point on the reasons you asked this? I mean if for example you took a poll then this subject would change dramically.
But asking a question you've gotten opinions but if I recall correctly you've left out your reason for the question.
So are you a moderate or extremist or somewhere in between?

My view seems to be in consesus here.

I dont particularly feel that Children should be taught unquestioning faith.

in my opinion, it doesnt give room for mental growth, When a Child is told to not bother seeking a solution, that the answer is God, it seems on the surface a bit stifling.

As an evolutionist, I am weary of fundamentalist religion because it actively debauches the scientific enterprise.
It teaches us not to change our minds, not to want to know exciting things that are available to be known.

Books about evolution are believed not because they are holy.
They are believed because they present overwhelming quantities of proven evidence, in principle, any reader can go and check that evidence.
When a science book is wrong, somebody eventually discovers the mistake and it is corrected in subsequent books.
That conspiciously doesnt happen with Holy books.

Fundamentalist religion seems bent on ruining the scientific education of countless thousands of innnocent, wellmeaning, eager young minds.
Non-fundamentalist, 'sensible' religion may not be doing that.

But it is making the world safe for fundamentalism by teaching children from their earliest years that unquestioning faith is a virtue.

I have no problem with religion, in moderation all things are good.

I have recently watched the Documentary Jesus Camp, in which young children are praised for extreme unquestioning faith.

Faith can be very dangerous, and deliberatly to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child can be considered a grievous wrong.

Our society, including the non-religious sector, has accepted the idea that it is normal and right to indoctrinate tiny children in the religion of their parents, and to slap religious labels on them - 'Catholic child', 'Protestant child'. 'Jewish child', 'Muslim child', etc. - although no other comparable labels: no conservative children, no liberal children, no Republican children no Democrat children.

Children are products of their parents, they are the children of 'Christian parents', or 'Muslim parents' this is a concious raiser for the children themselves.
A child who is told she is a 'child of Muslim parents' will immediately realize that religion is something to be chosen or rejected when an age is reached to do so.

 

[90K]

Our society, including the non-religious sector, has accepted the idea that it is normal and right to indoctrinate tiny children in the religion of heir parents, and to slap religious labels on them - 'Catholic child', 'Protestant child'. 'Jewish child', 'Muslim child', ets. - although no other comparable labels: no conservative children, no liberal children, no Republican children no Democrat children.

Yes interesting point but also those points would go for race as well. I'm irish is all I heard growing up, so....We did what other irish kids did. This borders cultures and sub-cultures in any given society. If this idear were to change I think possibly it would have to be moved completely out of the realm of things as we, them or they once knew it for this process to be changed. This could be a human defect that we feel we as humans need to fit in to a group like wild animals travel in groups,manly for protection but also inner security.

 

[Eightball]

In rational moderation this is all true.

It is not rational and moderate religious adults that are a problem.

Your Lord of the Flies example, im kind of confused, does this show that if you teach children religion and leave them alone they will end up killing and becoming savages?

They are still children, and I think that religious or not, you cant abandon them and hope that whatever theyve learned, they will choose the right course, Lord of the Flies was a fictional circumstance, in all actuality the kids would most likely have starved to death.

You cant leave them alone with God, because one of them will test it, at least one child will see if they are truly being watched, and the only real repercussion that they would ever be faced with is guilt.

And guilt works wonders for religion, especially when people are reminded and repeatedly being told they are guilty, but if you leave someone alone, guilt subsides, unless they are unablanced enough to wallow continiously in their guilt. Which is unhealthy in its own right.

Speaking of not so moderate and rational believers, there are many individuals who have chosen a different path, and found alternative religions, or alternatiives to religion,
only to find that they have been disowned, abandoned by everyone they love, leaving them with a feeling of utter hopelessness.
Not too many choose to stray from a deep belief system.

We will always have a choice, but when a human is raised without a choice from the start, the alternatives never look as reasonable or inviting.

Nope. Lord Of The Flies is an example that you can take children from any environment, be it ethical/moral/religious and without continued wise supervision/guidance of parents... the "anarchy" scenario could happen never the less. Kids are just that. They are kids, not adults. They can reason, but they aren't at an age of total responsibility and fully developed conscience.

Now with that said, there are many adults that never seem to lean on their consciences either, but that isn't supposed to be the norm. We do have our Bundys and Dalmers.

 

[hjmick]

Nope. Lord Of The Flies is an example that you can take children from any environment, be it ethical/moral/religious and without continued wise supervision/guidance of parents... the "anarchy" scenario could happen never the less. Kids are just that. They are kids, not adults. They can reason, but they aren't at an age of total responsibility and fully developed conscience.

Now with that said, there are many adults that never seem to lean on their consciences either, but that isn't supposed to be the norm. We do have our Bundys and Dalmers.

Above all else, Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction, allegorical in nature. We have no way of knowing what would happen in the real world. Until the scenario in the novel plays out in real life, I would hesitate to use it as a basis for an argument. But, that's just me.

 

[Superlative]

Above all else, Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction, allegorical in nature. We have no way of knowing what would happen in the real world. Until the scenario in the novel plays out in real life, I would hesitate to use it as a basis for an argument. But, that's just me.

A concurrance, is in occurrence.

 

[Eightball]

Above all else, Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction, allegorical in nature. We have no way of knowing what would happen in the real world. Until the scenario in the novel plays out in real life, I would hesitate to use it as a basis for an argument. But, that's just me.

Looks like some of you went from womb to adulthood in a nano second, and can't even remember your own childhood days. Maybe your childhood was too protected or you just don't remember. Some infact have endured such traumatic childhoods that things are fuzzy at most. I do understand.

I still remember living in the average U.S.A. neighborhood and facing bullies who shoved you around, and if it weren't for parents who know's how things would escalate in the average kid's life, I sometimes wonder how I would have turned-out.

Yes, Lord of the Flies is fiction.......and wasn't intended to be an example to duplicate a real life scenario on my part, tit or tat.

I do think, however, that when children are not kept in check, you will have anarchy in their world as well.

Just keep in mind the AK 47 carrying infants that are all too common in many strife torn African nations, even to this day. These little clay like, and easily influenced minds can mow down a bunch of adults with an automatic rifle or even their own age group without batting an eye of conscience.

So, the Lord Of The Flies scenario isn't far fetched in my opinion. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the author of that fiction novel hadn't been attempting to send a covert message to mankind.

Without ethics, morals, and borders(constraints of some kind) any and all societies will become an anarchy. Though government entities may come in the form of benevolent to nasty, they serve a purpose........in certain ways. It is to protect it's own populous from peril, and to maintain orderliness and not chaos.

Even Paul of the bible told Christians, though they were being persecuted by the government, to try and be respectful to those in authority over you, as God established and brings down all governments. He also said that governments do wield the "sword" of discipline, yet also, governments hold the responsibility to not violate God's laws, or they will be brought down.

I've often thought about the miraculous downfall of the mighty U.S.S.R., that took the world by total surprise. I've often wondered if God had enough of this mammoth nation built upon atheistic, and man centered ideals, to the exclustion of God. It's funny how the New Russia now allows much more freedom of religion, and especially has been using the Christian bible as a main moral, ethical textbook in their public schools. Sadly as of late, Putin is trying to retract from this policy. I hope it doesn't happen.

A moral void was part of the reasoning by the new Russian leaders, Yeltsin......etc. in encouraging churches from the West to come into the New Russia with missionarys to resestablish Christian ethics and belief in this shell of a country, that was devoid of morals/ethics/principles from 1917 to the 1980's.

Can you believe this. Yes, the new leaders of Russia, right after the fall of the USSR were requesting Russian language bibles to be supplied by the West to their public schools as standard text along with the 3-R's!..........Why........because their first thought or response to this morally vacuous new country was a need to re-establish morals, and ethics, and their first thought to answer this dilemma was the foundational book of Christianity.

Sadly to this day, many Christians who visit China, do at their own peril, sneek Chinese language bibles into mainland China. There is such a hunger for the Christian bible in China, the need for the books far out strips the supply. China only allows a government recognized church that is carefully watched and must preach and perform according to principles that do not question or hint at the moral/ethical integrity of the government in any way. Yet, the underground church in China is growing at monumental rates, much like the church of Acts and in Rome and throughout Asia Minor during Nero's rain of heavy persecution of Roman/gentile Christians and Jewish Christians.

Funny, how these Christians walked into the colloseum and let themselves be ravaged by carnivorus animals or slowly tortured by weaponized Romans. These Christians didn't burn down the religious houses of Zeus, or cause any terrorist acts upon the Roman state. They just went like lambs to slaughter. How many religious systems of belief have adherents that follow these examples? They just didn't worship Caesar Nero as their God. That was their condemnation by the state. Yet these same Christian Romans paid their taxes, and lived lives respecting their fellow Roman citizens. In some way their system of belief threatend the very heirarchy of Roman leadership, as their lives exuded the very nature of the biblical Christ, and we know what happened to Christ as a result of loving mankind, yet calling attention to their sin.
*****
Lord of the Flies......isn't too far fetched, if one were to truly think back to one's own childhood and the interactions they had with other children. I still remember three of our neighborhood bullys surrounding me about a half block up the street from our home and proceeding to tease, and slug me from all sides. They made fun of me, they pushed me, etc.. I was scared, Mom and Pop didn't know what was going on, and I couldn't get away.

My friends, that's just a little sample of the Lord of the Flies scenario in microcosm.

I still remember this deep voice from behind me that said, "What going on here!". It was my Dad. Somehow he found out what was happening with me. My Dad was a carpenter at that time. A Godly man, but he had biceps and triceps that bulged from hammering those 16 penny nails, and lifing those framed walls vertical doing new home construction. The eyes on those bully's got big as 50cent pieces. My Dad gave them a good warning, and then he and I walked home with my Dad's hand on my shoulder.

Dad wasn't there most of the time for these predicaments, and there were times I ran home crying, and sometimes I prevailed too. All I know is that without some benevolent authority over children or even mankind, we are at a total loss to govern ourselves without havoc, and anarchy.

That's just common sense from observations of life. You can question how the Lord of the Flies played out, but the basic premise is, that no matter what kind of life we come from as kids, we as kids need boundaries, authority, guidance, and other special influences from the mature adults of our culture in order to maturate and become sole individuals capable of making sensible, reasonable decisions in life.

Remember what happened at the end/conclusion of Lord of the Flies. The hunter kids are pursuing the few kids that didn't want to be savages, and then they kids ran right into a tall adult sea fairing man in dressed-whites who had come to rescue the kids. The savage hunter-kids dropped their spears immediately and began to cry and act like dependent little kids again. That authority figure brought all chaos back to calm and organization.

 

[hjmick]

I see your point, 8ball. I was latchkey kid growing up, parents both worked. I did not have the type of experience in my childhood you describe. Whether that's because I was always the tallest kid on the block or because most of the kids in my neighborhood went to church ot temple or because everyone's parents knew each other, I don't know. Just didn't happen. I certainly wasn't protected or sheltered.

 

[Superlative]

......Just keep in mind the AK 47 carrying infants that are all too common in many strife torn African nations, even to this day. These little clay like, and easily influenced minds can mow down a bunch of adults with an automatic rifle or even their own age group without batting an eye of conscience.......

........Without ethics, morals, and borders(constraints of some kind) any and all societies will become an anarchy. Though government entities may come in the form of benevolent to nasty, they serve a purpose........in certain ways. It is to protect it's own populous from peril, and to maintain orderliness and not chaos.

..........A moral void was part of the reasoning by the new Russian leaders, Yeltsin......etc. in encouraging churches from the West to come into the New Russia with missionarys to resestablish Christian ethics and belief in this shell of a country, that was devoid of morals/ethics/principles from 1917 to the 1980's.....

Why do I feel like i just got off my grandads knee after a story?

Your point is taken, but I have a couple points.

As far as the AK47 kids, they were given the guns by adults, and shown how to use them and told it was ok to shoot and killl people by adults.

There arent villages full of children alone and piles of guns laying around for them to play with, the adults are sick twisted cowards and give the kids guns and hide, and hope that whichever child survives will be hardened and a perfect mercinary killer.

My intention in the thread was never to question the NEED for morality, it was to question Religious morality, and whether or not its right to indoctrinate children when they are too young to know any better.

I concur that without any moral ideas or guidlines that there would be anarchy.

My point was that humans are still capable of exhibiting and utilising morals without religion.

Lord of the Flies says that if you leave kids alone without guidance supervision or repercussions they will kill each other.

Which could potentially be true for adults.

And as far as the Russians and religion is concerned, Religion is a good way to get the population organised and ready to obey.

 

[Diuretic]

Without God there is no right and wrong. Everything is relative.

Wrong - not relatively wrong, outright wrong. Before god there was common sense. A bunch of smart, you'd call them pagans, worked out an ethical code long before Christianity.

 

[Diuretic]

Nope. Lord Of The Flies is an example that you can take children from any environment, be it ethical/moral/religious and without continued wise supervision/guidance of parents... the "anarchy" scenario could happen never the less. Kids are just that. They are kids, not adults. They can reason, but they aren't at an age of total responsibility and fully developed conscience.

Now with that said, there are many adults that never seem to lean on their consciences either, but that isn't supposed to be the norm. We do have our Bundys and Dalmers.

Golding's point in "Lord of the Flies" was that civilisation is a veneer. Given the right circumstances any of us will revert to animalistic behaviour. How many bible bashers were working for the Army at Abu Ghraib? Didn't hold them back did it? And remember they were going in there for a shift at a time, they weren't stuck on an island without adult supervision. You don't know much about human nature.

 

[Eightball]

Golding's point in "Lord of the Flies" was that civilisation is a veneer. Given the right circumstances any of us will revert to animalistic behaviour. How many bible bashers were working for the Army at Abu Ghraib? Didn't hold them back did it? And remember they were going in there for a shift at a time, they weren't stuck on an island without adult supervision. You don't know much about human nature.

And friendly, respectful salutations to you too, my friend.

 

[Diuretic]

And friendly, respectful salutations to you too, my friend.

Okay, it sneaked in, wasn't necessary, I'll give you that. Think of me as having male mental menopause, I keep having these hot rhetorical flushes.