What would America be like if the anti-Abortion types win?

[Crixus]

Not really. Most Americans support the right to choose as its defined, or was back in the day. America could accept a law legalizing abortion as its defined, but you political cultist like having it as an issue on a message board so you can swap barbs and get little emoji’s saying how cool you are.

Um, no, not really.

Here's the thing... if you asked most Americans if they think abortion should be used as contraception, they'd have reservations, but maybe grudingly allow it. That's really what we are talking about when we talk about 98% of abortions, performed on non-viable, consensual conceived fetuses as a form of birth control.

But we aren't discussing cases, we are discussing law and how to apply it.

So the pro-life person will talk about the late abortion fetus that makes up 1% of abortions performed, and the pro-choicer will talk about the fetus that happens because of rape or incest, which is also about 1% of abortions performed.

That is where the discussion is taking place, but if you allow for these fringes, the whole premise falls apart. If you are arguing that, yeah, I'm pro-life, but I can totally see aborting a rape-fetus... then you are on thin ice rhetorically. If you are pro-choice but want to ban abortion in the third trimester... then why not the second or when a heartbeat starts or when God gives a baby a soul?

This isn't a simple question, which is why I go to the Pro-reality position. A woman who doesn't want to be pregnant will find a way to not be pregnant.

Regardless of how i feel about abortion personally or your reasons for wanting one, a practical matter is either you are going to have unenforceable laws like we had pre-1973 or in the Philippines, or we are going to have to have a pretty draconian system that makes "A Handmaid's Tale" look like weak sauce.

This here,

a·bor·tion
/əˈbôrSH(ə)n/
noun

1. 1.
   the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy.
   "concerns such as abortion and euthanasia"
   synonyms: termination, miscarriage;
   rarefeticide
   "she had an abortion"
   
   
   That’s what most Americans can grudgingly support. Even I can. Abortions as a form of contraception is murder and woman who use abortions as such are murderers and should have to agree to be sterilized as a condition of receiving such. But that’s my opinion. My opinion aside, congress should be forced to make a bill. They all agree abortion isn’t going anywhere, so make a law. Then no one has to worry about who a president puts on the SCOTUS. Why don’t they do this? Because then they would have to go to Washington and work. No one on this board is going to be convinced one way or the other. So why go round and round. You believe what you do ind I believe what I do. The only solution is a law.

 

[jknowgood]

You liked Obama and his mother didn't want him.

Says who?

Never mind... who knows what kind of Birther crazy we'll here from this one.

Speaking of that...

"If there's no God - making ourselves the source of ethics for everybody, or declaring that nobody can be the source of ethics for anybody, and therefore morality is, again, purely subjective.

Morality is purely subjective if you have a God or not. The God of the Bible demanded that 'his people" murder girls who weren't virgins on their wedding nights (some of whom might have had fetuses inside of them. IN fact, probably most of them), people who worked on the sabbath, gay folks, people who happened to be on land the Israelites wanted... including women and children...

The Nazis wore belt buckles that read "Gott Mit Uns". You will be happy to know that the Nazis were the ONLY regime in the world that executed people for performing abortions, though.

Reason supports a lot of things, as for example, a very liberal position on abortion. If there is no God, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is just a good idea. That's why it is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people."

Somebody tell that to the Amalekites, whom God ordered exterminated to the last man, woman and child, and turned his back on Saul for not also wanting to kill their cattle.

Her parents raised him.

 

[Dale Smith]

All their screaming about "infanticide" aside, do you ever wonder what our country would look like if the Anti-Choice fanatics got their way.

Well, thanks to the modern miracles of actually understanding there is a rest of the world out there, we have a real life example.

The Philippines, former American Colony, has exactly the kind of anti-choice laws you guys want.

How's that working out.. Well, let's review.

Unintended Pregnancy and Unsafe Abortion in the Philippines

• The Philippines abortion law is among the strictest in the world. Abortion is illegal under all circumstances and there are no explicit exceptions. Nonetheless, because of high levels of unintended pregnancy, abortion is common in the country. Projections that were based on the national abortion rate in 2000 (the most recent available) and that took into account population increase estimated that 560,000 abortions occurred in 2008 and 610,000 abortions took place in 2012.[2,8,9]

• About 1,000 Filipino women die each year from abortion complications, which contributes to the nation’s high maternal mortality rate. Projections that were based on data from 2000 indicate that 100,000 women were hospitalized for abortion complications in 2012; countless others suffered complications that went untreated.[4,9]

• The stigma surrounding abortion makes it difficult for women to seek postabortion care. Some women report feeling shamed and intimidated by health care workers and in some cases, women are not given pain relievers or anesthetics or are denied treatment all together. Others report being threatened that they would be turned over to the police.[5,8]

Since people have become so cavalier and de-sensitized to ending life on the front end, don't be surprised when the Gen Xers that are deciding what type of care you are allowed to have (regardless of how much fiat currency you feel you have contributed thus entitled) when you take more than what you are giving and become an "inconvenience" and a major drain on the healthcare system. I have a feeling that you will be very indignant and insist you are "owed"...then you will get the "pillow over the face" treatment some night after you have been sedated and drooling on your pillow. It would definitely be justice served and fate you deserve.

 

[JoeB131]

Since people have become so cavalier and de-sensitized to ending life on the front end, don't be surprised when the Gen Xers that are deciding what type of care you are allowed to have (regardless of how much fiat currency you feel you have contributed thus entitled) when you take more than what you are giving and become an "inconvenience" and a major drain on the healthcare system. I have a feeling that you will be very indignant and insist you are "owed"...then you will get the "pillow over the face" treatment some night after you have been sedated and drooling on your pillow. It would definitely be justice served and fate you deserve.

Okay, Crazy Dale... I'm sure you worry that's how the Lizard People Trilateralists from the Vatican are going to get you...

 

[JoeB131]

That’s what most Americans can grudgingly support. Even I can. Abortions as a form of contraception is murder and woman who use abortions as such are murderers and should have to agree to be sterilized as a condition of receiving such. But that’s my opinion.

And it's a stupid one. Fetuses aren't people and abortion isn't murder. This decision should be between a woman and her doctor.

My opinion aside, congress should be forced to make a bill. They all agree abortion isn’t going anywhere, so make a law.

When did this agreement take place? The problem with a law is that SCOTUS would have to rule if that is constitutional. Overturning Roe would make this a state's rights issue, and the more backwards red states would want to ban abortion as much as they can.

Then no one has to worry about who a president puts on the SCOTUS. Why don’t they do this?

Well, yeah, there's a whole lot of reasons to worry who Trump put on the court. The environment, women's rights, minority rights, civil rights, labor law. A court with five corporate flunkies on it is kind of a problem for decent working folks.

Why don’t they do this? Because then they would have to go to Washington and work. No one on this board is going to be convinced one way or the other. So why go round and round. You believe what you do ind I believe what I do. The only solution is a law.

No, a law would be ignored if it interferred with a woman's right to choose. Again- go ask the Filipinos.

 

[Thunderbird]

The abortion industry chews up women and their babies for $$$$. Post-legalization the abortion industry establishes a cozy relationship with the regulatory apparatus. Pro-abortion politicians receive substantial campaign contributions (bribes) from the industry. Women receive no protection from the abortion industry.

https://studentsforlife.org/2019/02...pends-so-they-can-commit-late-term-abortions/

Back-Alley Abortion Never Ended

Increasing Health and Safety Standards for Abortion Clinics Is Reasonable

Legalization also means more abortions.​

 

[JoeB131]

The abortion industry chews up women and their babies for $$$$. Post-legalization the abortion industry establishes a cozy relationship with the regulatory apparatus. Pro-abortion politicians receive substantial campaign contributions (bribes) from the industry. Women receive no protection from the abortion industry.

Actually, legal abortion is safer than childbirth.

The comparative safety of legal induced abortion and childbirth in the United States. - PubMed - NCBI

CONCLUSION:
Legal induced abortion is markedly safer than childbirth. The risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion. Similarly, the overall morbidity associated with childbirth exceeds that with abortion.

Your scare tactics don't work.

Here's the thing. Abortion is actually pretty dangerous in the Philippines, where it is illegal. But 800,000 Filipinas get them every year and about 1000 die.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Actually, legal abortion is safer than childbirth.

The comparative safety of legal induced abortion and childbirth in the United States. - PubMed - NCBI

CONCLUSION:
Legal induced abortion is markedly safer than childbirth. The risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion. Similarly, the overall morbidity associated with childbirth exceeds that with abortion.

Your scare tactics don't work.

Here's the thing. Abortion is actually pretty dangerous in the Philippines, where it is illegal. But 800,000 Filipinas get them every year and about 1000 die.

There is no such thing as a safe abortion. Every successful abortion results in the death of an innocent human being. Denying the humanity of the innocent victim does nothing to change the reality of what is happening, and what it is that you are defending; it only reveals your own evil and sociopathy.

 

[Thunderbird]

The abortion industry chews up women and their babies for $$$$. Post-legalization the abortion industry establishes a cozy relationship with the regulatory apparatus. Pro-abortion politicians receive substantial campaign contributions (bribes) from the industry. Women receive no protection from the abortion industry.

Actually, legal abortion is safer than childbirth.

The comparative safety of legal induced abortion and childbirth in the United States. - PubMed - NCBI

CONCLUSION:
Legal induced abortion is markedly safer than childbirth. The risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion. Similarly, the overall morbidity associated with childbirth exceeds that with abortion.

Not really.

Fact #11: Abortion is more dangerous than childbirth. – AbortionFacts.com

Here's the thing. Abortion is actually pretty dangerous in the Philippines, where it is illegal. But 800,000 Filipinas get them every year and about 1000 die.

1) Many poor countries have a limited ability to enforce the law. They don't always have the resources. In wealthy countries we do have the resources to stop the abortion industry from preying upon women. See the difference?

2) In poor countries legal abortion is dangerous.

The very liberal NPR agrees: Abortion In India Is Legal Yet Women Are Still Dying

So 1000s of women are dying in countries with legal abortion!

See how your argument just fell apart?

 

[Thunderbird]

We can help mothers without killing their children.

Permissive Abortion Laws Do Not Reduce Maternal Deaths - PRI

 

[JoeB131]

There is no such thing as a safe abortion. Every successful abortion results in the death of an innocent human being. Denying the humanity of the innocent victim does nothing to change the reality of what is happening, and what it is that you are defending; it only reveals your own evil and sociopathy.

Fetuses aren't people, Mormon Boob. again, when you guys advocate arresting women for MURDER for having abortions, then you can make this argument.

And then there's THIS asshole.

Not really.

Don't waste my time with Religious propaganda. I'll go with the medical professionals.

1) Many poor countries have a limited ability to enforce the law. They don't always have the resources. In wealthy countries we do have the resources to stop the abortion industry from preying upon women. See the difference?

That you might be a retard? You see, you guys talk about "enforcing the law", but how do you do that? The laws we had before 1973 were largely unenforceable, that's they the courts struck them down.

You would need to have a draconian police state to enforce an abortion law... and it might not even work then.

2) In poor countries legal abortion is dangerous.

It most certainly is. But illegal abortion is even more dangerous.

India has nearly a billion people, and they have 4600 abortion deaths (of actual women, not fetuses). The Philippines has about 90 million people and they have 1000 abortion related deaths a year. In short, while poverty makes abortion dangerous, poverty PLUS stupid laws make it more dangerous.

 

[Thunderbird]

There is no such thing as a safe abortion. Every successful abortion results in the death of an innocent human being. Denying the humanity of the innocent victim does nothing to change the reality of what is happening, and what it is that you are defending; it only reveals your own evil and sociopathy.

Fetuses aren't people, Mormon Boob. again, when you guys advocate arresting women for MURDER for having abortions, then you can make this argument.

Unborn babies are small helpless humans. Why do you want to murder them? Are you paid by the abortion industry?

Stop the hate, okay?.

Not really.

Don't waste my time with Religious propaganda. I'll go with the medical professionals. [/quote}The article I linked to cites numerous medical studies. If you weren't a subliterate ideologue you would know this.

1) Many poor countries have a limited ability to enforce the law. They don't always have the resources. In wealthy countries we do have the resources to stop the abortion industry from preying upon women. See the difference?

That you might be a retard? You see, you guys talk about "enforcing the law", but how do you do that? The laws we had before 1973 were largely unenforceable, that's they the courts struck them down.

You would need to have a draconian police state to enforce an abortion law... and it might not even work then.

Actually prolife laws reduce abortions.

Pro-life laws work: study

Since you are a closed-minded buffoon I'm sure you will ignore the facts.

You seem to feel that women have an uncontrollable desire to kill their children. Why do you suffer from this delusion? Maybe if you avoided corporate media propaganda you could start thinking clearly.

2) In poor countries legal abortion is dangerous.

It most certainly is. But illegal abortion is even more dangerous.

India has nearly a billion people, and they have 4600 abortion deaths (of actual women, not fetuses). The Philippines has about 90 million people and they have 1000 abortion related deaths a year. In short, while poverty makes abortion dangerous, poverty PLUS stupid laws make it more dangerous.[/QUOTE]

Again you ignored a scientific study: Permissive Abortion Laws Do Not Reduce Maternal Deaths - PRI

If your reading skills are subpar should you be posting on a public forum?

I know you are desperate to kill off these helpless unborn babies, but try to be reasonable.

Abortion in Asia: Opinion | 160 Million and Counting

Why do you support the mass murder of young women?

 

[sealybobo]

All their screaming about "infanticide" aside, do you ever wonder what our country would look like if the Anti-Choice fanatics got their way.

Well, thanks to the modern miracles of actually understanding there is a rest of the world out there, we have a real life example.

The Philippines, former American Colony, has exactly the kind of anti-choice laws you guys want.

How's that working out.. Well, let's review.

Unintended Pregnancy and Unsafe Abortion in the Philippines

• The Philippines abortion law is among the strictest in the world. Abortion is illegal under all circumstances and there are no explicit exceptions. Nonetheless, because of high levels of unintended pregnancy, abortion is common in the country. Projections that were based on the national abortion rate in 2000 (the most recent available) and that took into account population increase estimated that 560,000 abortions occurred in 2008 and 610,000 abortions took place in 2012.[2,8,9]

• About 1,000 Filipino women die each year from abortion complications, which contributes to the nation’s high maternal mortality rate. Projections that were based on data from 2000 indicate that 100,000 women were hospitalized for abortion complications in 2012; countless others suffered complications that went untreated.[4,9]

• The stigma surrounding abortion makes it difficult for women to seek postabortion care. Some women report feeling shamed and intimidated by health care workers and in some cases, women are not given pain relievers or anesthetics or are denied treatment all together. Others report being threatened that they would be turned over to the police.[5,8]

That is what they want and they want to kill on the spot people they claim sell or do drugs..

I suggested making welfare moms watch working moms kids while they are at work in exchange for welfare. If you can't get off welfare then keep on watching other people's kids for your welfare.

Then a bunch of conservatives said they wouldn't trust their kids with these women.

So then I asked them why then do they want to pass a law saying if these women get pregnant, they have to have the baby?

Why would you force women you wouldn't trust with your kids to have kids?

 

[Chuz Life]

You wagered.

Fetuses aren't people . . .

I call.

JoeB131, I'm calling you out on your claim that a human fetus is NOT a Child!

Put up or shut up.

 

[sealybobo]

You wagered.

Fetuses aren't people . . .

I call.

JoeB131, I'm calling you out on your claim that a human fetus is NOT a Child!

Put up or shut up.

Do women go to jail for murdering fetus'? Then they aren't people because people go to jail when they murder other people.

 

[sealybobo]

You wagered.

Fetuses aren't people . . .

I call.

JoeB131, I'm calling you out on your claim that a human fetus is NOT a Child!

Put up or shut up.

Oh shit I think a fetus is a person

synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, human, being, living soul, soul, mortal, creature, fellow;

It is a living soul. It is mortal. It is a creature.

 

[Chuz Life]

You wagered.

Fetuses aren't people . . .

I call.

JoeB131, I'm calling you out on your claim that a human fetus is NOT a Child!

Put up or shut up.

Do women go to jail for murdering fetus'? Then they aren't people because people go to jail when they murder other people.

We'll go round in circles. . . (Love that tune)

And if the laws that (for now) deny the fact that a child in the fetal stage of their life is a person are wrong?

What then?

 

[Leo123]

Do women go to jail for murdering fetus'? Then they aren't people because people go to jail when they murder other people.

No but men do.

 

[Chuz Life]

You wagered.

Fetuses aren't people . . .

I call.

JoeB131, I'm calling you out on your claim that a human fetus is NOT a Child!

Put up or shut up.

Oh shit I think a fetus is a person

synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, human, being, living soul, soul, mortal, creature, fellow;

It is a living soul. It is mortal. It is a creature.

You had to look it up?

 

[sealybobo]

Do women go to jail for murdering fetus'? Then they aren't people because people go to jail when they murder other people.

No but men do.

Republicans would even punish the woman for getting an abortion

There has to be some form of punishment." These seven fatal words, famously uttered by Donald Trump at a Wisconsin town hall are perhaps his ugliest promise to date about the future of reproductive rights under a Trump regime.

Punishment. Even among anti-choicers, the idea was so immediately upsetting that Trump had to walk it back more or less immediately. "Of course, women shouldn't be punished for having an abortion," said Ohio Governor John Kasich, himself arguably the most anti-choice candidate in the Republican primary. "We shouldn't be talking about punishing women; we should affirm their dignity and the incredible gift they have to bring life into the world," said Ted Cruz. Thus, the bar was set; criminalizing women for abortion was the one outcome so dark that even the most anti-choice Republicans would not contemplate it.

When a Miscarriage Becomes a Crime