What religion were our founding fathers worshipping?

[Ravi]

What religion were our founding fathers worshipping? When I say founding fathers, I mean founding fathers of the United States of America - George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.? I do not believe it was Christianity. The original Constitution does not mention any specific reference to Christianity being the official religion of the USA. Am I wrong?

Why does it matter? Even if they practiced voodoo it wouldn't change anything.

 

[glockmail]

yet the treaty of tripoli IS specifically mentioned and WAS ratified by congress and IS applicable.

Only the latest one is applicable. That doesn't include the anti-Christian language. Fell free to keep your head firmly in sand though.

 

[glockmail]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

oh yes, dude... NOTHING says CHRISTIAN quite like specifically saying "very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw."


your opinions mean two things, dude. Jack and shit.


feel free to peruse the Monticello website. There is an entire page dedicated to the ambiguity of Jefferson's faith.

but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Descent from the Cross by Frans Floris; photographed by Edward Owen.Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Monticello Report: Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

So what? In order to qualify as a deist one must not simply doubt intermittently, but refuse to believe, that God listens to prayers of men and responds accordingly. The Jefferson quotes I cited demonstrated his belief in The Christ.

 

[Shogun]

Only the latest one is applicable. That doesn't include the anti-Christian language. Fell free to keep your head firmly in sand though.

there IS no "latest", dude... That link doesn't disregard the whole list of each individual treaty.

and yes, the TRIPOLI treaty does, in fact, include the verification that the US is in no way, shape or form a "christian" nation. Indeed, try wrapping the facts around your opinion some more, dude. It's pretty typical, really.

 

[Shogun]

So what? In order to qualify as a deist one must not simply doubt intermittently, but refuse to believe, that God listens to prayers of men and responds accordingly. The Jefferson quotes I cited demonstrated his belief in The Christ.

you are laughably wrong. Do you even know what the hell a deist is? a deist is NOT an athiest. JEFFERSON DID NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF ANY GOD. for fucks sake, read the goddamn montecello website.

ONE MORE TIME


Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ


so what indeed.. again, TYPICAL dogma junky response.

 

[glockmail]

there IS no "latest", dude... That link doesn't disregard the whole list of each individual treaty.

and yes, the TRIPOLI treaty does, in fact, include the verification that the US is in no way, shape or form a "christian" nation. Indeed, try wrapping the facts around your opinion some more, dude. It's pretty typical, really.

The treaty of 1805 supersedes the earlier.

 

[glockmail]

....Do you even know what the hell a deist is? ......

de•ism: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe

m-w.com

In order to qualify as a deist one must not simply doubt intermittently, but refuse to believe, that God listens to prayers of men and responds accordingly.

Post 43

Looks like I’ve got it nailed down.

 

[Shogun]

The treaty of 1805 supersedes the earlier.

no, it really doesn't. Again, the SAME LINK specifically mentions the treaty of tripoli and doesn't, in any way shape or form outside of your dogma junky opinion, replace any individual treaty.

 

[Shogun]

m-w.com

Post 43

Looks like I’ve got it nailed down.

HA!

you wish, dude.. say, what does "but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ
" mean in english?


I assure you, no one cares what YOU think qualifies one as a deist.. especially when his re-writing of the bible SANS MIRACLES is about as "emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe" as it gets..


check mate thumper!

 

[glockmail]

no, it really doesn't. .....

Actually it does. That's why the treaty was written.

 

[glockmail]

....


I assure you, no one cares what YOU think qualifies one as a deist....

It's not my definition, but Merriam-Websters.

 

[Shogun]

Actually it does. That's why the treaty was written.

dude. you can't just assume something without backing it up. THAT SAME LINK you posted specifically mentions that EACH individual treaty with EACH INDIVIDUAL BARBARY NATION remains applicable. Even if your dogma junky mentality refuses to accept that. YOUR OWN LINK specifically includes Tripoli in the first fucking paragraph.

 

[Shogun]

It's not my definition, but Merriam-Websters.

go tell it to the Jefferson estate at Montecello, dude.. clearly, you and miriam webster are better qualified to decide ole Tom's personal faith!



like I said.. CHECK MATE, THUMPER.

 

[Shogun]

The Barbary Treaties :
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

The Avalon Project : The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 (3 Ramada I, A. H. 1211), and at Algiers January 3, 1797 (4 Rajab, A. H. 1211). Original in Arabic. Submitted to the Senate May 29, 1797. (Message of May 26, 1797.) Resolution of advice and consent June 7, 1797. Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797. As to the ratification generally, see the notes. Proclaimed Jane 10, 1797.

In the half century from 1786 to 1836 the United States made nine treaties with the Barbary States, as they were then called: Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli.
The Avalon Project : The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816


this is why no one takes you dogma junkies seriously in ANY kind of educational setting, dude. You are too wrapped up on your dogma to comprehend why it's called the Barbary TREATIES. PLURAL. There is no FINAL TREATY. No FINAL DRAFT. It's a collection of 9 fucking documents with 9 different nations. One of which was Tripoli. The same that was ratified by CONGRESS with the exact wording that you don't want to face as a fact.

 

[glockmail]

dude. you can't just assume something without backing it up. THAT SAME LINK you posted specifically mentions that EACH individual treaty with EACH INDIVIDUAL BARBARY NATION remains applicable. Even if your dogma junky mentality refuses to accept that. YOUR OWN LINK specifically includes Tripoli in the first fucking paragraph.

The 1806 Ttreaty is between the “President and Citizens of the United States of America, on the one part, and the Bashaw, Bey and Subjects of the Regency of Tripoli in Barbary on the other…”

This supersedes the 1796 Treaty “between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli of Barbary…”

It’s really not that difficult to understand.

 

[glockmail]

go tell it to the Jefferson estate at Montecello, dude.. clearly, you and miriam webster are better qualified to decide ole Tom's personal faith!



like I said.. CHECK MATE, THUMPER.

I see you keep using the Al Gore defense. How special.

However Jefferson's original words, as well as the definition of deism from Merriam-Webster, speak for themselves.

So since you’ve given up on Washington and Jefferson, perhaps you could try another Founder for deism.

 

[Shogun]

The 1806 Ttreaty is between the “President and Citizens of the United States of America, on the one part, and the Bashaw, Bey and Subjects of the Regency of Tripoli in Barbary on the other…”

This supersedes the 1796 Treaty “between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli of Barbary…”

It’s really not that difficult to understand.

no, it doesn't supersede shit, dude. What is not difficult to understand is your total lack of evidence to suggest anything of the sort while trying to pass off your bullshit opinion as fact.

again, typical thumper routine..


i know i know.. WHO CARES what the actual barbary treaties, ratified by congress, stated just like the evidence at Montecello and Jefferson's own statements just don't usurp your opinon and miriam webster!






again, this is why no one in academia gives a rats ass about your bible junkie input.

 

[Shogun]

I see you keep using the Al Gore defense. How special.

However Jefferson's original words, as well as the definition of deism from Merriam-Webster, speak for themselves.

So since you’ve given up on Washington and Jefferson, perhaps you could try another Founder for deism.

I quoted Jefferson's original words.. Remember, IM THE ONE who isn't relying on surgical snippets in order to wrap an opinion around the facts. Indeed, jeffersons words DO speak for themselves.. and they say that you are full of shit.


and, I haven't given up on Jefferson at all. I've stomped a mudhole in your ass by his example.. and, since he was the man that wrote the documents, I'll go ahead and rest on the laurels of his evidence.


SERVED.

 

[glockmail]

The evidence is right in the original text as cited, a dictionary of the English language in use for centuries, and a smattering of common sense.

Now about those other Founders?

 

[Shogun]

The evidence is right in the original text as cited, a dictionary of the English language in use for centuries, and a smattering of common sense.

Now about those other Founders?

evidence my ass. See, you can't even offer ANYTHING outside of your own conveluded opinion. No, proving your assertion is NOT a matter of common sense. This is why there is a giant five fingered handprint on your face given the specific quotes I was able to post FROM YOUR OWN FUCKING LINK.




I believe the correct net terminology would be PWNED



and, other founding fathers did you say?


Ben Franklin from his AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography

Before I enter upon my public appearance in business it may be well to let you know the then state of my mind with regard to my principles and morals, that you may see how far those influenced the future events of my life. My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of the Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of the sermons which had been preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them. For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but each of these having wronged me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith’s conduct towards me (who was another freethinker), and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, though it might be true, was not very useful.








KA-BLAM, thumper!