What religion were our founding fathers worshipping?

final draft? what? cite your source, glockmail.


ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The Avalon Project : The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
 
In a single statement, most were Deists with Euro Christian upbringings. Jefferson talked rather openly about Deism. Largely Creationists without believing in a living God that effects present. Since they were by and large children of the Enlightenment, they were struggling with God vs. reason much like France did.
 
In a single statement, most were Deists with Euro Christian upbringings. Jefferson talked rather openly about Deism. Largely Creationists without believing in a living God that effects present. Since they were by and large children of the Enlightenment, they were struggling with God vs. reason much like France did.
Proved to be bullshit per facts in evidence, post 16. :eusa_hand:
 
final draft? what? cite your source, glockmail.


ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The Avalon Project : The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

ARTICLE 11th
The Commerce between the United States of America and the Regency of Tripoli; The Protections to be given to Merchants, Masters of Vessels and Seamen; The reciprocal right of establishing Consuls in each Country; and the priviledges, immunities and jurisdictions to be enjoyed by such Consuls, are declared to be on the same footing, with those of the most favoured Nations respectively.
The Avalon Project : The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Amity, Signed at Tripoli June 4, 1805
 
Proved to be bullshit per facts in evidence, post 16. :eusa_hand:

did you want to go ahead and cite your source regarding your statement about the Treaty of Tripoli?


ps.. washington wasn't the father of our constitution.. It's a goddamn joke to assume that notes from his single example indicates more than the first fucking amendment.
 
I have that somewhere. I have an old history book from the 70's. I think some where christians, some free mason's, some didn't believe in religion. If someone didn't already answer you, I'll try to find the list.

Er...freemason isn't a religion.

Christian is anything that's not a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. (They believe in a resurrected Christ, the son of God).

It can't be that hard. I'm guessing Protestant as in CHurch of England, Episcopalian, Lutheran.....crap, now I've got to look.
 

The Avalon Project : The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816

You are referring to Article 11 in the Treaty of Tripoli, that was in a draft that was omitted in the final version.

I think that you might wanna go ahead and read about the treaties before you leap to bullshit assumptions about some "first draft" theory", yo...

:lol:
 
Gosh, that was hard.

Here's a chart. I haven't looked hard at it...Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Quaker, Dutch Reformed/German Reformed, Lutheran, Catholic, Huguenot, Unitarian, Methodist, Calvinist.
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

"The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors and educators. These individuals, too, were for the most part active churchgoers and many contributed significantly to their churches both with contributions as well as their service as lay leaders. The signers were members of religious denominations at a rate that was significantly higher than average for the American Colonies during the late 1700s."
 
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The Avalon Project : The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816



I think that you might wanna go ahead and read about the treaties before you leap to bullshit assumptions about some "first draft" theory", yo...

:lol:


Likewise. Except I've actually read up on it. You were apparently unaware of the 1805 revision and that the draft, which included your cited Article 11, ended up in the trash can.
 
Likewise. Except I've actually read up on it. You were apparently unaware of the 1805 revision and that the draft, which included your cited Article 11, ended up in the trash can.

dude.. it's a conglomerate of individual treaties. One of which, in fact, included an article 11 while RATIFIED by the US congress.

Your link doesn't say shit about anything being in the trash can. It doesn't even REMOTELY suggest that.
 
dude.. it's a conglomerate of individual treaties. One of which, in fact, included an article 11 while RATIFIED by the US congress.

Your link doesn't say shit about anything being in the trash can. It doesn't even REMOTELY suggest that.


My link has the text of the updated treaty, with a revised article 11. It was also the same website as your link, by the way; I just did some open-minded research to see what the latest agreement was. :lol:
 
In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian[4], but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles Ely, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."
Jefferson's Religious Beliefs - Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia



enjoy.

It is well know that Jefferson began to question his faith during his later years. However during most of his life his writings are of a true believer:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]
 
My link has the text of the updated treaty, with a revised article 11. It was also the same website as your link, by the way; I just did some open-minded research to see what the latest agreement was. :lol:

In the half century from 1786 to 1836 the United States made nine treaties with the Barbary States, as they were then called: Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli. Seven of those treaties appear in the present volume (Documents 14, 17, 20, 21, 31, 34, and 37).


same link. first paragraph. "0pen minded" my ass.

:cool:
 
It is well know that Jefferson began to question his faith during his later years. However during most of his life his writings are of a true believer:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]

You clearly have a problem with the FACT of Jefferson's aversion to a conformity of faith under your opinion of christianity. After all, it takes a real believer to rewrite the bible by removing all statements denoting the theology of your faith.

:lol:

and, please... quoting snippets is just not impressive...


a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side. And I wish could subjoin a translation of Gosindi's Syntagma of the doctrines of Epicurus, which, notwithstanding the calumnies of the Stoics and caricatures of Cicero, is the most rational system remaining of the philosophy of the ancients, as frugal of vicious indulgence, and fruitful of virtue as the hyperbolical extravagances of his rival sects.

Letters
 
In the half century from 1786 to 1836 the United States made nine treaties with the Barbary States, as they were then called: Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli. Seven of those treaties appear in the present volume (Documents 14, 17, 20, 21, 31, 34, and 37).


same link. first paragraph. "0pen minded" my ass.

:cool:

None of the other 7 treaties has the non-Christian language either. :cuckoo:
 
Anyone with an intelligent, open mind would have an "aversion to a conformity of faith". This does not make one a deist. :lol:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

oh yes, dude... NOTHING says CHRISTIAN quite like specifically saying "very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw."


your opinions mean two things, dude. Jack and shit.


feel free to peruse the Monticello website. There is an entire page dedicated to the ambiguity of Jefferson's faith.

but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Descent from the Cross by Frans Floris; photographed by Edward Owen.Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.


Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html
 
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